FireAndBlood. Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 And how much support would Dany have if she were a guy, doing what she does? A large part of her appeal, especially on the show, is this "girl power rah" schtick. The gender thing runs both ways, and you'd better believe there are people who root for her because she's a girl. The "you're just sexist" argument has always struck me as just a lazy excuse not to have to address the many legitimate criticisms of her. Are there sexist assessments of her, sure. Is "I dislike her more than Jon because I'm pretty sure she's executed at least a few innocent people and tortured people too" a sexist assessment? They were gathering an army of Dothraki and actively planning to invade Westeros. Let's not pretend like they were just minding their own innocent business and big meanie Robert Baratheon sent someone to kill them for the lulz. I'm not trying to argue that sexism is driving force of the Dany-hate, just that it plays a part. Jon has executed innocent people, too. Or did I you forget the fan-favourite moment of ADwD where he lopped a man's head of for simply refusing to go to Greyguard? 9. He has actually earned his rank and title No he didn't, or did I just imagine the whole part where Samwell actively manipulated the situation to get people to vote for Jon? Or the part that really convinced people he was their man was when a bird flew to his shoulder? Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snark of Winterfell Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Neither of them are my favorite, I Jon more. I think Dany chapters generally drag on and there aren't a lot of characters I like with her. With Jon I get Sam, Ygritte, Qhorin and on and on. And I like his family better. Can't rule out gender being an issue, maybe I relate more bc of it (although love Arya chapters) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireAndBlood. Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 Comparisons to celebrity culture will become relevant when a celebrity starts sacking cities and ordering mass crucifixions. It truly is not hard to see why Jon is less controversial than Dany unless you're absolutely intent on papering over Dany's flaws. Even if you come down on the side of agreeing with Dany's actions, it's willfully obtuse to pretend you don't see why they're incredibly controversial. You missed my point. I'm not comparing celebrities to the characters of ASOIAF, just the way people react to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I'm not trying to argue that sexism is driving force of the Dany-hate, just that it plays a part. Jon has executed innocent people, too. Or did I you forget the fan-favourite moment of ADwD where he lopped a man's head of for simply refusing to go to Greyguard? No he didn't, or did I just imagine the whole part where Samwell actively manipulated the situation to get people to vote for Jon? Or the part that really convinced people he was their man was when a bird flew to his shoulder? Lol. Um, he wasn't "innocent" unless you have a different definition of innocent that includes refusing to obey the orders of your commanding officer and formenting dissent and mutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 No he didn't, or did I just imagine the whole part where Samwell actively manipulated the situation to get people to vote for Jon? Or the part that really convinced people he was their man was when a bird flew to his shoulder? Lol. Bullshit Jon was chosen to defend the wall by both Donal Noye and Aemon. Mormont also saw much promise in him and wanted to make Jon his successor. Aemon said something like "It must be you or no one" in asos. And Slynt was executed not only because he refused to do what his LC told him but also because he was insulting him and already tried to have Jon dead in ASOS. 100% deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I find I actually relate somewhat to Jon. Not the whole "ignored bastard" part, but being quiet and introverted and generally always trying to do the right thing despite urges to do otherwise. The way he interacts with people is also similar to me. I'm not saying this is the main reason, but being able to relate to someone helps boost their likability imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Yeah. Nothing to do with mass crucifixions. Nope. Just bits. Jon also has a better handle on the knowledge and history needed to do his job, not just when dealing with the Watch, but with the North too. How often do we see Jon reflect on historical events that happened with the Watch, and use that lesson or knowledge in order to do his job? It's at least a few times, like with "Sleepy" Jack Musgood. He knows his history and knows how to apply its lessons. Look at ADWD and see how much he shows that he knows how to deal with politics in the North: He advises Stannis on how to gain support from the mountain clans, tells him who Lyanna Mormont is, tells him why he should go to Deepwood Motte instead of the Dreadfort and neutralizes the Karstarks. Contrast this with Dany, who not only has absolutely zero historical or cultural knowledge of the city she plans to rule, but she also has no apparent interest in gaining that knowledge. Is it fair that Jon gets to call the shots on his home turf, maybe not. But then again no one held a gun to Dany's head and forced her to make herself queen of Meereen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bog Devil of Greywater Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I don't think just having them as family counts. Jon actively tries to be like Ned, ie. honourable and dutiful and just. I don't disagree with that statement at all, but it doesn't go at odds with what I'm saying either. That sense of honor and duty is shown as a Stark family trait, and we don't see any evidence of it being that variable in recent Stark history other than perhaps Brandon, who got some not-so-wholesome fleshing out in Dance to expand on Ned's weird outburst about him early in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 I don't disagree with that statement at all, but it doesn't go at odds with what I'm saying either. That sense of honor and duty is shown as a Stark family trait, and we don't see any evidence of it being that variable in recent Stark history other than perhaps Brandon, who got some not-so-wholesome fleshing out in Dance to expand on Ned's weird outburst about him early in the series.Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Jon is not yet in a position of power like Dany has been. His character has evolved different as well, because he had had some good influence on him: LC Mormont, Quoryn, Noye, Mance and now, Stannis. Dany had no one. At the start of aGoT, Jon is very entitled and even snobby, thinking the rest of the NW was lesser than he was. And it wasn't Dany the one who thought about breaking her vows to go and help his brother, because apparently, the Northern Campaign wouldn't survive without the help and advice of Jon Snow. Dany has taken bad decisions as a leader, yes. Jon isn't even there yet. He has taken hostages, who are mostly small children that he might need to execute if their parents misbehave. Unlike Dany, he hasn't yet faced the chance to actually being in a position of doing such. And they both failed to see the danger around them. Jon realised to late that the Watch planned to kill him, and didn't see it coming at all. Dany was outplayed by the Harpy and his/her people. Both are paying the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Jon has executed innocent people, too. Or did I you forget the fan-favourite moment of ADwD where he lopped a man's head of for simply refusing to go to Greyguard? Insubordination (repeat insubordination, seeing as Jon gave Slynt multiple chances to change his tune) in a military outfit like the Watch is punishable by death. Slynt was unambiguously guilty of said insubordination and was thus subject to the death penalty. He was hardly an innocent person and honestly you're really, really, really reaching here. No he didn't, or did I just imagine the whole part where Samwell actively manipulated the situation to get people to vote for Jon? Or the part that really convinced people he was their man was when a bird flew to his shoulder? Lol. Did they vote for Slynt? No. Thorne? No. Mallister? No. Pyke? No. Marsh? No. Sam's tactics don't matter for shit if the votes don't come through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 If I had a few words to decribe my negative view of Dany, those words would be "willful ignorance". Dany has a bad habit of wanting rule places and then making almost no effort at learning about those places. It's amazing how little we really know about Mereen. It's poltics and culture,etc. This is because Dany doesn't seem to care. And she seems to make no effort to learn about Westeros either. Willful ignorance, three flying flamethrowers, and thousands of combat troops is a bad combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelex Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It's because her storyline is boring and detached from anything else, simple enoughIt's not her gender or her morality/entitlement at all. There are characters who are far worse, far more entitled and get way less flak. Since she is boring however, these flaws are accentuated in the minds of most readers to a ridiculous degree, more than what is present in the text. For the record, I do like Dany but this is the truth. Jon's chapters are simply more appealing and more relevant to the story, and thus he is more well-liked. If Dany came to Westeros and started doing extremely terrible but exciting things, people would like her more. Although I do think that at this point some people are too deep into their Dany hate for them to ever coming around. I blame GRRM for dragging out her story too long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Jon is not yet in a position of power like Dany has been.His character has evolved different as well, because he had had some good influence on him: LC Mormont, Quoryn, Noye, Mance and now, Stannis. Dany had no one.At the start of aGoT, Jon is very entitled and even snobby, thinking the rest of the NW was lesser than he was. And it wasn't Dany the one who thought about breaking her vows to go and help his brother, because apparently, the Northern Campaign wouldn't survive without the help and advice of Jon Snow.Dany has taken bad decisions as a leader, yes. Jon isn't even there yet. He has taken hostages, who are mostly small children that he might need to execute if their parents misbehave. Unlike Dany, he hasn't yet faced the chance to actually being in a position of doing such.And they both failed to see the danger around them. Jon realised to late that the Watch planned to kill him, and didn't see it coming at all. Dany was outplayed by the Harpy and his/her people. Both are paying the consequences. A few members of the NW planned to kill him. And it looks like they failed. Also, I'd say Barristan and Jorah were excellent advisers. And she chose not to give a fuck about any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 You missed my point. I'm not comparing celebrities to the characters of ASOIAF, just the way people react to them. No, I didn't miss your very poor point at all. You compared the way people react to celebrity's peccadillos to the way people react to a character sacking cities and crucifying hundreds of people. Which is not at all comparable. I'm pretty sure this is part of Bieber's European tour next year. Oh well, as long as he still has a dick I'll remain Belieber. I mean, I'm told that that's the only basis on which I make any of my judgements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 It's all they have to fall back on and they know it. Hey, not so fast. I have another explanation. Masochism. Why else would people prefer the worse written and way more cliched character? Makes sense. It's because her storyline is boring and detached from anything else, simple enough Yeah, unlike Jon's story which is just so trilling and exciting, and isn't detached from the main action at all. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 thinking the rest of the NW was lesser than he was. They were lesser than he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 His gender.Yep.Didn't you know? Men are allowed to make mistakes when they are in power. Women are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Another part of the reason is that it has felt like Jon has been in some seriously dangerous situations in the series that might not end well for him (hunted down and ambushed by wildlings in the Skirling Pass, everything at Queenscrown, being sent to assassinate Mance, etc). I always feel like there is the chance he might not make it out well, and so he has to fight tooth and nail and use all his wits to survive, cause he's often alone in these situations.Dany on the other hand has Deus ex Napalm-spewing Nuke Dragons to help her, as well as a huge army of fearless warriors and a veteran and legendary knight. I never doubt for a second she will make it out of her situations fine. It never feels like she really has to fight and struggle to overcome odds. The odds just overcome themselves for her.I dunno, just my late-night ramblings :Lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 Didn't you know? Men are allowed to make mistakes when they are in power. Women are not. That make a lot of sense Dany made a lot mistakes and she's still alive without any kind of scar whereas Jon got stabbed for trying to do the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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