Ser Creighton Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I didn't know Ran had said other Valyrian nobility did as well. So maybe the Velayrons did sometimes.2Martin also plays on the inbreeding of Royals that has occurred in history just part of some of the historical themes he likes to mix in there. Though there is other evidence to support the dragon bond inbreeding he speaks of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 And Ned would hardly think that Dayne was the finest knight ever.A fantastic point as well.I'm just now remembering a line from Barristan., for people who aren't necessarily under the impression that Rhaegar had affection towards Lyanna but I believe he says quite literally that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 A fantastic point as well.I'm just now remembering a line from Barristan., for people who aren't necessarily under the impression that Rhaegar had affection towards Lyanna but I believe he says quite literally that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for itOf course, Barristan is not necessarily the best source and could be mistaken--but in this case, he was not mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I didn't know Ran had said other Valyrian nobility did as well. So maybe the Velayrons did sometimes. This is what I also inferred :) Beware of poetry, it is the actual crown that was meant here. What was she clutching with one hand? Ned's hand. What was she clutching with her other hand? Does it make sense that she was holding tightly to any dead rose petals? No, the crown of Harrenhal, the symbol of their love, the grip on her baby child she could no longer keep tight and safe. eta: both hands may be symbolic for the new bond here. Her care of the baby goes over into Ned's responsibility. I tend to agree. It is said nowhere that they had sex.Ned recalled that Lyanna was rebellious so it lead her to early grave. We don't know what was happening in ToJ during the Rebellion.Dayne, Aerys, Benjen, Ned, etc.Guards must protect the member of king's family. Lyanna disappeared for a time close to a year after her 'abduction', while Jon was conceived well into the Rebellion and born at the end of it. None of the people you listed match the timeline, with the exception of Arthur/Oswell. IF it was one of them, why would Rhaegar and 2 other Kingsguards (shining examples to the world) linger in a such a godforsaken place for such a long time while serious s**t was hitting the fan? And WHY would Ned deny Jon the truth causing him such a heartbreak??? Why not telling Cat? Only a huge secret and an even bigger risk in hiding it would justify his torment and his 'lies'. Only treason. Hiding the legitimate Targaryen heir to his King and best friend represents the ultimate betrayal and only his silence can shield the life of his loved ones against the wrath of Rhaegar's nemesis. They couldn't be sure that Ned wanted the survival of Jon, but the fact that he turned up there on the quiet with only his 6 most trusted men makes that look like the most likely thing. It makes little sense for them to not explore this possibility. The battle for the throne was over, for the present. The secret of a new heir would not have changed anything; even with fractious Martells, ambiguous Tyrells and random loyalists, the rebellion was over and won, despite the fact that these groups already believed there was a legitimate Targ heir, Viserys, still alive. However shining the 3KG, these groups aren't suddenly going to back a baby if they've given up on Viserys. So the best the 3KG can hope for is the survival of the baby until some future time when the dynasty can reassert itself. Interestingly despite the apparent fact that the 3KG fought and lost, they still got what they were hoping for with the survival of the baby, so what good was fighting? All it achieved is that they were no longer around to help protect the baby. A posteriori reasoning. NOT the reasoning of loyal sworn shields. NOT the reasoning of a LC who always goes strictly by the book. Their priority is the survival of the Targaryen heir apparent, NOT the survival of baby Jon/Ned's nephew. What they planned to do to try and restore the legitimate dynasty, only the gods (the new and the old ones aka GRRM lol) know. Their priority is to keep the heir out of the 'usurper's dog' grasp and ensure the secrecy of its existence. Secrecy means safety for the time and time to plan the next steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 A fantastic point as well.I'm just now remembering a line from Barristan., for people who aren't necessarily under the impression that Rhaegar had affection towards Lyanna but I believe he says quite literally that Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it He also died with her name on his lips, and both times we get Rhaegar's death story (in Dany's POV's at least) it's always referred to as dying for the woman he loves OR dying with the name of the woman he loved on his lips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Thanks BQ!!Glad you enjoyed! And I can promise that the next one will be of particular interest to the denizens of this thread ;)The Episode That Was Promised? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Duncan the Small Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 He also died with her name on his lips, and both times we get Rhaegar's death story (in Dany's POV's at least) it's always referred to as dying for the woman he loves OR dying with the name of the woman he loved on his lips. True as well. Gosh its like a forgone conclusion to me that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Maybe I really do just want it to be that bad. The Episode That Was Promised? ;-) *Slow Clap* the timing was phenomenal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Not all of the clues lead to R+L=J. Most of them lead to Lyanna is mother, but there are no strong evidences that Rhaegar is the father. The one evidence is guards. Well, we're told of two men that Lyanna could have had a relationship with: Robbert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen (of course I'm sure she was around other men, but I don't think we are given any clues as to who they might be (and I refuse to lend credence to the idea if incest among the Stark siblings)). If I am correct, Robbert had no contact w/Lyanna after 281ac (Jon was born in 283). This rules him out. Lyanna, the only female noted to do so, wept to Rhaegar's tune. Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QOLAB, even though his Lady Wife was present. Lyanna disappeared (kidnapped??) w/Rhaegar in 282ac, Jon was born the following year. IF Lyanna is Jon's mother, It's >95% (IMHO) odds that Rhaegar is the father. IF Eddard is Jon's father, this conversation would fall under another topic! BTW, I had not read Ser Creighton's Excellent Analysis of the parallels between Daenerys and Jon (in particular, between Ghost & KG), or I would have given credit where it was due *(back in R+L=J v.95). I actually believed I had an original thought! :idea: :idea: :idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salazor Ahai Stormborn Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I like to think Ned also feels a bit guilty that Jon is raised as a bastard and all that entails instead of a prince. I know I'd feel bad about that, even if it was done to protect him. Also, Cat's treatment of Jon has to be a burden for Ned, but he's stuck on that one. This. Also, he might be a bit sad to understand that the prince was raised as a bastard, and a bastard (Joffrey) was raised as the prince. People also forget that Ned, while taking a Targaryen heir and claiming as his own, was committing treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 The Episode That Was Promised? ;-) with a special guest star apparently (cant' wait to hear you guys!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 We know Domeric and Lyanna knew each other and appeared to have spent some time together. Domeric was alive until 297ac, but it is unclear if Lyanna had any contact w/him throughout 282-283ac. However unlikely, Jon's father could plausibly be Domeric. Has anyone ever heard of a two-year old fathering a child?Domeric was about learning to walk and talk when Lyanna died.You can safely rule him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 nvm. i misread a thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Guys i must ask something,is there some kind of R+L=J denying festival going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Guys i must ask something,is there some kind of R+L=J denying festival going on? Show's off the air, we're three years into a wait for Winds with probably 2 more (at least) to go...yeah. The natives have gotten restless so some serious crackpottery has come out. Everyone from Ashara/Brandon, Brandon/Lyanna, Ned/Lyanna, Benjen/Lyanna, Aerys??/Lyanna, Arthur Dayne/Lyanna, and The Great Other/Magical Unicorn have been thought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Guys i must ask something,is there some kind of R+L=J denying festival going on? Why, just the usual :-) These things go in neverending circles. There are R+L=/=J weeks, why were the KG at ToJ, Rhaegar/Lyanna bashing, why were the KG at ToJ, Targaryens are fireproof, why were the KG at ToJ, why did the KG fight Ned... did I leave anything out? - Oh, yes, why were the KG at ToJ :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlan of Pennytree Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Has anyone ever heard of a two-year old fathering a child?Domeric was about learning to walk and talk when Lyanna died.You can safely rule him out. I gotta quit smoking that CRACK!! No, seriously, I thought (from L.Dustin & Roose's comments) that they had rode together. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Why, just the usual :-) These things go in neverending circles. There are R+L=/=J weeks, why were the KG at ToJ, Rhaegar/Lyanna bashing, why were the KG at ToJ, Targaryens are fireproof, why were the KG at ToJ, why did the KG fight Ned... did I leave anything out? - Oh, yes, why were the KG at ToJ :-) And so many people who frequent this thread have explanations for why these alternative theories don't work that we get a reputation for being inhospitable to contrary views. I don't think that is fair--we just expect people to be able to back up their theories. Given that the alternative theories ultimately fall apart under close inspection, the people who put them forth don't like getting shot down so completely and blame us for their own failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegal Targaryen Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Brandon and Ashara as Jon s parents?Do the timelines even add up?I m not gonna even talk out the whole Brandon,Benjen,Ned/Lyanna pairing and based on Rhaegar s and Jon s images,they kinda look alike so i hope they do have an explanation for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Brandon and Ashara as Jon s parents?Do the timelines even add up?I m not gonna even talk out the whole Brandon,Benjen,Ned/Lyanna pairing and based on Rhaegar s and Jon s images,they kinda look alike so i hope they do have an explanation for that. Nope. The only meeting of Brandon and Ashara that we know of took place at the ToH in 281AC. Per GRRM, Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany placing his birth around the time of the Sack (283AC), up to a month after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I gotta quit smoking that CRACK!! No, seriously, I thought (from L.Dustin & Roose's comments) that they had rode together. . .Well yeah, how would Roose have known he could beat her without them actually racing one another?All its going to take is Martin to clarify dates and the Wiki changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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