R+L=J v.96

[BearQueen87]

All right, since it was I who did the first post of this invocation thread this time, I edited it to add this bit:

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some poeple have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Did I get this all right?

Any changes to recommend?

Very good idea!

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm no more obsessed with Lyarra than many here with HR.

Reed would have had one view of the Lyanna/Rhaegar, and Lyarra quite another. It is true that I was asking about Lyarra before even coming to this thread. There is a saying that sometimes silence speaks louder than words. I have a feeling that's the case here. And I can't help but speculate on the origins of that silence. If that's obsession, so be it.

You could say I'm obsessed with Benjen as well. He's another potential witness to the events surrounding Jon's birth that Martin dangled under our noses then whisked away before we even realized, "Hey! He might have the answers to some of the big questions."* It seems unlikely that Benjen will be redeemed from the north, but who knows? As Bran's power grows, he may find his uncle - and perhaps he will reveal his grandmother as well.

As for my "fan fic" as you call it, where there's a void the mind rushes in. I would like to create a number of possible scenarios for my own amusement. I know this site does not allow fan fiction and if that's how my musings are seen then I will keep them to myself.

* in the sack and burning of WF we lost all of the remaining household members who might have witnessed a possible return to WF by a pregnant Lyanna. That's one more reason to obsess about Lyarra - if she's even alive - she may be the last person who could tell us if Lyanna did indeed return.

OK, here is the distinction in my mind. We have information about Benjen. We have a jumping off point to speculate on what he might know or what he might have done. So, at least IMHO, speculating about his role, at least if grounded in some information in the text, is not fan fic.

Lyarra is different. We basically have no information about her. If GRRM wanted her to become relevant later in the story, he would have given her more of a back-story so that it was not jarring when she is introduced later. It would be easy to do so, as we are introduced to her son and grandchildren almost immediately in GoT. Stories about her could easily have been added--even innocuous stories that at least gave us some sense of her character. GRRM likes to drop subtle hints early on if he can--and here he clearly could (unlike, for example, (f)Aegon, who had to come out of nowhere or the element of surprise would be totally lost). In addition, any speculation that involves highly improbably events, like Lyanna going from ToJ to WF back to ToJ, is laughable. There were a lot of rumors about Jon's mother at WF until Ned put a stop to it. Don't you think there would have been similar rumors going around about Lyanna returning to WF during the period when she was supposedly kidnapped? It certainly would put a big hole in the story that she had been kidnapped (which even Bran seems to believe happened). It just makes no sense--and is based on nothing in the text that even hints that it could be possible and thus, IMHO, falls into the realm of fan fic.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The only people Rhaegar owed explanations were the Starks and the Martells.

I think people can't or don't want to understand that those Lords wouldn't mind about Lyanna being "dishonoured". Whatever happens in the Prince's sheets aren't matter of war, only matter of families being offended and wanting retribution. Girls' hymens aren't that important to call banners, unless is your own daughter, and even so many other lords would say "well, that's your thing, not mine". Imagine if Rhaegar had eloped with Cat instead. I can't imagine the Arryns recruiting people to go and fight Aerys for what his son did.

The Rebels were mainly the Starks, the Baratheons, the Arryns and the Tullys. And there is a chain of events that caused this:

Aerys wanted Ned and Robert dead. They both were under protection/tutelage of Jon Arryn. The main "offended" here also is Ned, because Aerys killed both his father and brother, and the Prince "kidnapped" his sister, and he's now the Lord of Winterfell. But Arryn didn't act when Lyanna was taken: he didn't call men in name of Ned, the brother, or Robert, the future husband. If they heard Brandon went to KL to deal with Rhaegar, then they assumed he was going to solve a situation that only was important to the Starks, not the rest of Great Lords.

Anyway, Robert and Ned go and gather their forces. Then, Ned returns. They joined Arryn's men. It's later when Hoster joins, after Ned marries Cat and Jon marries Lysa (or after the betrothals are arranged).

Hoster helped the Rebellion because he was now linked to the Rebels by marriage. Before, he couldn't care less. He had no reasons. All of this was put in motion AFTER Aerys asked Arryn for his boys' heads. Not because Lyanna and Rhaegar did or did not. Let's pretend Brandon had been a calm chap and goes to the RK and asks kindly "where is Rhaegar?" and no one dies, Would the Tullys, Arryns and Baratheon have joined together and Rebel against the Targaryens to protest for Lyanna's flower being well, deflowered? Nope.

I think the point you are making--that Rhaegar was neither the direct cause of the war nor was the war reasonably foreseeable by Rhaegar when he left with Lyanna--is undeniably correct. I think many people, however, are trying to make the point that running off with Lyanna the way he did raises its own questions or morality and proper behavior. In that society, should someone take another man's fiance? In that society, should the crown prince disappear for a year? In that society, should the crown prince marry a woman without the king's permission? In that society, should the crown prince enter into a polygamous marriage at all? And while we don't know when Rhaegar knew what pieces of information (given his remote location), could he have done something at some point after things started to go out of control to try to stop the situation from escalating into war?

While there may be reasonable answers to each of these questions that mitigate Rhaegar's culpability, he does not appear to be a perfect person who always used the best judgment, even evaluating his judgment solely by what he reasonably could have known at the time and taking into account the nature of the society in which he lived. We just don't know enough.

That said--I tend to be on "Team Rhaegar" and believe that given his strong belief in the need to fulfill the prophesy, the limitations he and Lyanna were under in terms of a crazy king and an unwanted fiance, I think Rhaegar did about the best he could under the circumstances. But he was not perfect.

[BearQueen87]

I'm also on "Team Rhaegar" and lean toward "he had a plan for how to proceed but couldn't predict all the factors and carried a lot of guilt with him as he went back to KL and then to the Trident"

[PrettyPig]

Anyway, Robert and Ned go and gather their forces. Then, Ned returns. They joined Arryn's men. It's later when Hoster joins, after Ned marries Cat and Jon marries Lysa (or after the betrothals are arranged).

Hoster helped the Rebellion because he was now linked to the Rebels by marriage. Before, he couldn't care less. He had no reasons. All of this was put in motion AFTER Aerys asked Arryn for his boys' heads. Not because Lyanna and Rhaegar did or did not. Let's pretend Brandon had been a calm chap and goes to the RK and asks kindly "where is Rhaegar?" and no one dies, Would the Tullys, Arryns and Baratheon have joined together and Rebel against the Targaryens to protest for Lyanna's flower being well, deflowered? Nope.

I am not sure I agree with this. If you look at the planned betrothals prior to the Rebellion, Hoster Tully stood to make out like a bandit. Eldest daughter to the future Lord of Winterfell. Second daughter to the eldest son of Lannister. Son to the daughter of Lannister. So, basically marrying into the most powerful houses in the North and South.

This starts to crumble a bit at the tourney when Jaime is appointed to the KG, but he still has two solid alliances into both houses in the works. Then R/L happens, and he ends up marrying one daughter to the second son of WF with zero southron ambitions, his other daughter to the surviving old member of a near-extinct house, and his son doesn't marry for the next 15 years.

Hoster was definitely looking beyond the borders of Riverrun, which is why IMO he was pleading caution and patience after L's abduction. I think he also smelled a rat. In any event, he had quite a vested interest in pre-RR goings-on....he was just a crafty SOB who held back and kept his cards close to his chest.

[Alia of the knife]

Who knows Rhaegar did take a girl and piss off 4 entire regions in doing so.I suppose he thought the Stark's would be cool with him taking her and I suppose he thought the father he knew was insane would react in a sane manner when dealing with the Starks.

People seem to give Rhaegar being a good guy too much credit simply because biased people say so.For all we know he started having sex with her right away.

True, but it also goes both ways as in the case of Roberts bias.

I expect that while Rhaegar is not this perfect, dreamy warrior poet, he is also not going to be a mustache-twirling villain either, but something in between as most of Martins characters are, and the ones that Martin most loves to write about.

But, bias is the death of reading comprehension so long as anyone views any character through the prism of black and white.

There isn't any evidence to support it. Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Also, why can't she just be Edric's aunt like it says in the text? What purpose does it serve for her to be Brandon and Ashara's daughter?

Wishful thinking implies emotional thinking, and its something I don't engage in. I have my favorite characters, but I let Martin take the lead, but to be brutally honest and only speaking for myself, I just don't take this stuff that seriously. Its a hobby, a great stress reliever, and a virtual book club. I come here for pleasure, not to be stressed :)

Anyway, as far as evidence goes, I disagree as the Daynes haven't really been fully fleshed out yet. I think it is heavily implied that Ashara had a relationhship with one of the Starks. Its the "who" that is the mystery. The speculation is that it is Ned or Brandon, and I err on Brandon.

Couple that with the fact that there are pretty decent parallels between Brandon and the Red Viper, because the RV wasn't exactly a nice guy either, and a hothead.

Also couple that with GRRM's interview and his statement on Brandon having died without having sons when he could have said he died without having children leaves open the possibility that like the RV had his sand snakes, Brandon may have had his she-wolves, however, if Allyria only ends up being Ashara's younger sister, its all good too.

All right, since it was I who did the first post of this invocation thread this time, I edited it to add this bit:

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some poeple have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Did I get this all right?

Any changes to recommend?

I also think its really REALLY fair to say that certainly enough time has passed between the books for it to have been figured out, but hopefully it will be resolved in book 6.

And trying to change a story so intricately weaved together could be a death knell for the quality of the series.

[JJ Lannister]

Yep.

[honeyed chicken]

OK, here is the distinction in my mind. We have information about Benjen. We have a jumping off point to speculate on what he might know or what he might have done. So, at least IMHO, speculating about his role, at least if grounded in some information in the text, is not fan fic.

Lyarra is different. We basically have no information about her. If GRRM wanted her to become relevant later in the story, he would have given her more of a back-story so that it was not jarring when she is introduced later. It would be easy to do so, as we are introduced to her son and grandchildren almost immediately in GoT. Stories about her could easily have been added--even innocuous stories that at least gave us some sense of her character. GRRM likes to drop subtle hints early on if he can--and here he clearly could (unlike, for example, (f)Aegon, who had to come out of nowhere or the element of surprise would be totally lost). In addition, any speculation that involves highly improbably events, like Lyanna going from ToJ to WF back to ToJ, is laughable. There were a lot of rumors about Jon's mother at WF until Ned put a stop to it. Don't you think there would have been similar rumors going around about Lyanna returning to WF during the period when she was supposedly kidnapped? It certainly would put a big hole in the story that she had been kidnapped (which even Bran seems to believe happened). It just makes no sense--and is based on nothing in the text that even hints that it could be possible and thus, IMHO, falls into the realm of fan fic.

I unfollowed this topic so I would not be tempted to reply (I have a problem in that regard) but since you quoted me it popped up in my notifications anyway (another setting I could change but don't wish to) . . .

I will think about what you have said here and process it slowly on my own.

Thanks for the reply.

[Ser Creighton]

Nahh, its more like this: :D

http://search.surfcanyon.com/search?action=selectSearchResult&session=2875291484323547780&ssMapKey=dest.acp6.poison%%every%rose%has%its%thorn%youtube&initialRank=14&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youvideostube.net%2F47822-Poison_Every%20Rose%20Has%20Its%20Thorn__Music_video%2F&now=1407901178723

Yeah I don't think so, lets face it if this is closer to the real world, this is what Rhaegar should look like while playing and this is probably what he played. That Rhaegar plays a mean banjo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

All right, since it was I who did the first post of this invocation thread this time, I edited it to add this bit:

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?

No, he said he won't change the outcome of the story only because some poeple have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Did I get this all right?

Any changes to recommend?

He also said he stopped looking back in the 90's when some people figured it out on a totally different site, pre swords. Whatever this secret/secrets may be.

[MtnLion]

He also died with her name on his lips, and both times we get Rhaegar's death story (in Dany's POV's at least) it's always referred to as dying for the woman he loves OR dying with the name of the woman he loved on his lips.

I need to add, Barristan said, "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it."

[MtnLion]

To

BearQueen87:

I think we have some confusion going on. I'm not counting Harrenhal in the year I'm talking about.

I'm strictly talking about from the moment Lyanna left her family (or was abducted ) as they were journeying from WF to Riverrun, until she dies in the toj - that was about a year/12 months, right?

That is the period I'm talking about where we don't know a thing about what she was doing (aside from the getting pregnant part). Or am I missing something (I've asked this before and been confirmed in it).

Another question to consider about this period: Jon's conception would have been about 3 months after she left/was abducted. Did Brandon and Rickard die prior to that? Seems like there was time for that to happen. Given Lyanna's impetuous character (wolf blood) that she would have left Rhaegar out of grief and guilt and ridden back to her family. Jon (her son) reacts the same way when his family is threatened.

This doesn't seem that hard to me. It's what Jon would do - and Lyanna too, unless she really was a hostage. Even then she's wild enough to escape, and is a great horse rider.

H . . . . . . . . . . . L . B . . R N . . S . . . . . . . . . . .K T

Harrenhal

Littelfinger challenges and loses to Brandon

Brandon rides for King's Landing

Rickard and Brandon are executed

Ned and Robert start the rebellion with Jon Arryn (note that Ned takes a dangerous route to Winterfell to raise his banners, while Robert helps Jon in the Vale before returning to Storm's End to raise his banners. It will take several weeks to raise the banners and train them.)

Storm's End is left in Stannis' hands while Robert marches to battles, and he is defeated in one, but instead of being pursued the opposing army turns to Storm's End to lay siege.

King's Landing is sacked

Tower of Joy

Green is Lyanna's pregnancy

[MtnLion]

Wasn't Alliser Thorne a Targ loyalist? I hope he finds out who Jon really is while he's still "dead" and he goes full Olenna mode, "Idiots, help your King!".

I'm right there with you. Alliser is going to do the goldfish for a bit.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah I don't think so, lets face it if this is closer to the real world, this is what Rhaegar should look like while playing and this is probably what he played. That Rhaegar plays a mean banjo.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

He also said he stopped looking back in the 90's when some people figured it out on a totally different site, pre swords. Whatever this secret/secrets may be.

True, but if only Elia had had a can of aquanet, then Rhaegar would have never looked twice at the wolf girl.

[MeKeepsDragons]

Is there a celebration when this thread reaches version 100?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Is there a celebration when this thread reaches version 100?

Yes, we are all going out for a beer together.

[Prince of the North]

Yes, we are all going out for a beer together.

I'm in! :cheers:

[BearQueen87]

Yes, we are all going out for a beer together.

Ser Creighton promised us a party. It's the Party that Was Promised. I think he said something about Jon Stamos....

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I am not sure I agree with this. If you look at the planned betrothals prior to the Rebellion, Hoster Tully stood to make out like a bandit. Eldest daughter to the future Lord of Winterfell. Second daughter to the eldest son of Lannister. Son to the daughter of Lannister. So, basically marrying into the most powerful houses in the North and South.

This starts to crumble a bit at the tourney when Jaime is appointed to the KG, but he still has two solid alliances into both houses in the works. Then R/L happens, and he ends up marrying one daughter to the second son of WF with zero southron ambitions, his other daughter to the surviving old member of a near-extinct house, and his son doesn't marry for the next 15 years.

Hoster was definitely looking beyond the borders of Riverrun, which is why IMO he was pleading caution and patience after L's abduction. I think he also smelled a rat. In any event, he had quite a vested interest in pre-RR goings-on....he was just a crafty SOB who held back and kept his cards close to his chest.

But Hoster is smart enough to realise he needed something back for his banners and help. While Cat was going to marry Brandon, she didn't. She had no other connections to House Stark until she married Ned later. Otherwise, why not join the Rebelion earlier? Why not simply help Jon Arryn without arranging a marriage in exchange of swords? Because he's not related to these people and he had no obligations towards them. Marriage is a bonding, that's why Robb helped the Riverlands and that's why Aegon doesn't need to get married to Arianne for Doran's support. Because Robb is also a Tully and Aegon is also a Martell. He wasn't going to call his men because Lyanna Stark was taken.

I think the point you are making--that Rhaegar was neither the direct cause of the war nor was the war reasonably foreseeable by Rhaegar when he left with Lyanna--is undeniably correct. I think many people, however, are trying to make the point that running off with Lyanna the way he did raises its own questions or morality and proper behavior. In that society, should someone take another man's fiance? In that society, should the crown prince disappear for a year? In that society, should the crown prince marry a woman without the king's permission? In that society, should the crown prince enter into a polygamous marriage at all? And while we don't know when Rhaegar knew what pieces of information (given his remote location), could he have done something at some point after things started to go out of control to try to stop the situation from escalating into war?

While there may be reasonable answers to each of these questions that mitigate Rhaegar's culpability, he does not appear to be a perfect person who always used the best judgment, even evaluating his judgment solely by what he reasonably could have known at the time and taking into account the nature of the society in which he lived. We just don't know enough.

That said--I tend to be on "Team Rhaegar" and believe that given his strong belief in the need to fulfill the prophesy, the limitations he and Lyanna were under in terms of a crazy king and an unwanted fiance, I think Rhaegar did about the best he could under the circumstances. But he was not perfect.

Even those of us who are in "Team Rhaegar" know and agrees on him being wrong about certain things. Running away with a girl while he was married was definitely the wrong thing to do, love or not. But whatever his actions were, he's far from that man who people picture, a man who was happily playing house with her while people was dying. There is more likely he was trying something during that whole year or who knows. It's definitely not as simple as to paint him as the "villain" or the "spoiled prince".

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Even those of us who are in "Team Rhaegar" know and agrees on him being wrong about certain things. Running away with a girl while he was married was definitely the wrong thing to do, love or not. But whatever his actions were, he's far from that man who people picture, a man who was happily playing house with her while people was dying. There is more likely he was trying something during that whole year or who knows. It's definitely not as simple as to paint him as the "villain" or the "spoiled prince".

Actually Lyanna, knowing the temper of her big bro, should have told him to run right into Brandon in the first place and settle things over a beer, the three of them. That, and no war, no destruction of Targaryen power and the prophecy would probably not have worked out then.

eta: I am doing the being smart in hindsight thingy, I know.

[Ser Creighton]

True, but if only Elia had had a can of aquanet, then Rhaegar would have never looked twice at the wolf girl.

A bottle of SoCo wouldn't of hurt either.

You see when they speak of Rhaegars beauty they are talking about his inner beauty, Just look at that little angel smile at the end. Even Robert Reynolds Baratheon liked it and Aerys was dancing.