Ramsay Gimp Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 To attack the Hand of the King would be tantamount to attacking the King, I would think. In theory, not in practice. This is Robert we're talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Yes, that's my understanding as well. Sending Gregor's men passing as simple brigands is a win-win situation: that not only causes Edmure's bannermen to scatter, but also makes it look like Ned's or Edmure's side attacked first, since no one could easily link the anonymous raids to Tywin. And if Ned goes to fight them, Gregor captures him and exchanges him for Tyrion.It didn't cause the Tully forces to scatter. That was never mentioned.Darry took twenty men with him. Vance and Piper ended up raiding Lannister lands. There was no military advantage gained from the burning of Sherrer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 How was it insane, given that all evidence indicates they were planning a coup (as you admit)? Would it have been "sane" to do nothing while his enemies gathered? Nah, my arguments weren't related. Yes, Tywin's plan is insane, because of it's low chance of success and the high risk. No, he had no saner plan available. Robert was a weakling when it came to his wife's family Only up to a certain point. Ned Stark would be beyond that point. Looks like you don't know Tywin Lannister. His plans were pretty much get Ned, the Hand of the King and Lord Paramount of the North and exchange him for his (hated) son, so everybody sees that NOBODY MESSES UP WITH THE LANNISTER, NOT EVEN THE HAND OF THE KING AND FRIEND OF THE KING BECAUSE I'M A LION, HEAR ME ROAR AND I HAVE A SMALL DICK TOLERANCE TO CRITICISM. Spot on. What do you mean by "attack the Riverlands" though? The raids, or the later battles? Tywin only launched the actual invasion after King Robert's death. As for the raids and capture-exchange plan: it would be a full mugging against the Starks, yes, but Tywin would just say "they started it" and Robert would shrug it off. What's Robert gonna do, attaint him? March on the Rock? Yes, Robert would march on the Rock. And get rid of Cersei and her kids. That would be just too much, Robert will be forced to take sides and he will take the side of Ned Stark, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn's memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Yes, Robert would march on the Rock. And get rid of Cersei and her kids. That would be just too much, Robert will be forced to take sides and he will take the side of Ned Stark, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn's memory. Tywin capturing Ned would cause Robert to exile/disinherit his children and destroy a Great House? Jaime nearly killed him and he wasn't even reprimanded by Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Tywin capturing Ned would cause Robert to exile/disinherit his children and destroy a Great House? Jaime nearly killed him and he wasn't even reprimanded by Robert One's an argument gone out of hand, the other is full-blown war. Neither Starks nor Tullys nor Arryns would stand for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 One's an argument gone out of hand, the other is full-blown war. Neither Starks nor Tullys nor Arryns would stand for it. But Ned isn't being kidnapped out of the blue, he's being kidnapped after the Starks kidnapped Tyrion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 But Ned isn't being kidnapped out of the blue, he's being kidnapped after the Starks kidnapped Tyrion Nope. Tyrion was arrested under the King's authority and subject to a proper trial, What would be Ned on trial for, taken by Tywin Lannister while representing the King's authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 The more intetesting question is: when did Tywin began to muster his armies? The same time as Robb (i.e. after Ned's imprisonment/Robert's death) or already earlier? Given the proximity to the RL (in contrast to Robb) it might be the former. The latter would be high treason if it came out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Nope. Tyrion was arrested under the King's authority and subject to a proper trial, What would be Ned on trial for, taken by Tywin Lannister while representing the King's authority? Just because someone says "I do this in the King's name" does not mean it was under his authority. The kidnapping was a vigilante action and the trial was a farce; if Tyrion had been judged "guilty" and thrown out the moon door the Starks/Tullys/Arryns would look even worse. The fact that Robert explicitly told Ned to release Tyrion as soon as he heard about it shows how he felt about the whole thing Plus even if he did blame the Lannisters your hypothetical reaction of going to war against Tywin and removing his own wife and children is way too extreme. From what we actually see in the text, Tywin is a cunning politician and Robert defers to the Lannisters. Your scenario casts Tywin as a suicical madman and Robert as a harsh Stannis-like figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Tywin is convinced he can do literally anything. He can't respect any limits to his power, a trait he passed on to his children, all three of them. So, yes, he was convinced that he can pull that insane plan off. Yes, and of course some Tywin fans do believe he can do anything, is invincible, yadda, yadda, yadda... Don't forget that attacking the King's Hand riding under the King's own banner would be ...appreciated by Robert in a very special way. Unless he was dead. Yep. Robert wouldn't have needed to be gone hunting. Robert hated confrontation, and while he would love to personally go settle a rebelling lord/subject, this was one of Tywin Lannisters lapdogs, and confronting Gregor would mean confronting Tywin, which would be the thing that Robert wouldn't want to do. Robert hates confrontation, but he luuuuuvs fighting. Going to war to put down the biggest and most vicious man in Westeros would be right up his alley. Looks like you don't know Tywin Lannister. His plans were pretty much get Ned, the Hand of the King and Lord Paramount of the North and exchange him for his (hated) son, so everybody sees that NOBODY MESSES UP WITH THE LANNISTER, NOT EVEN THE HAND OF THE KING AND FRIEND OF THE KING BECAUSE I'M A LION, HEAR ME ROAR AND I HAVE A SMALL DICK TOLERANCE TO CRITICISM. And this. Nope. Tyrion was arrested under the King's authority and subject to a proper trial, What would be Ned on trial for, taken by Tywin Lannister while representing the King's authority? Robert traveled for two months half of Westeros only to ask Ned to be his Hand and people are thinking he would just shrug him being kidnapped while fighting under the King's banner. Robert defers to the Lannisters. .You mean like when he traveled half a continent to ask a man known for his dislike of Lannisters to run the kingdom for him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Anything not to give Tywin credit I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon88 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Anything not to give Tywin credit I guess Exactly. It was a reckless plan but Tywin had no choice. No matter what Tyrion was kidnapped by Catelyn Stark. It had nothing to do with the king's order. The feud was between Lannisters and Starks. Tywin as a result attacked Catelyn's hometown, the riverlands in order to draw Eddard Stark so he can kidnap him and ransom him for Tyrion. There is nothing weird about the plan. And Robert is not going to choose side. Case in point he did not do anything when Jaimie injured Eddard and killed bunch of Northeners. If Tywin succeeded Robert probably would of just let them get exchanged and make sure both Tyrion and Eddard are safe. To Tywin Tyrion is innocent and the capture was out of the blue and since Robert doesn't do anything he took the action to get Tyrion back but Jaimie had no idea about the plan and as a result he messed up the the plan. And there was conflicting report regarding the force. Tywin wanted to make it look like it was just random outlaws but it was a ambush to capture Eddard and it worked but Eddard was not there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Robert traveled for two months half of Westeros only to ask Ned to be his Hand and people are thinking he would just shrug him being kidnapped while fighting under the King's banner. Is that not exactly what he did when Tywin's son almost killed Ned? Or did Jaime receive some sort of punishment I am forgetting? Stark fan wishful thinking, face it Robert would rather bury his head in the sand than go to war with the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 The more intetesting question is: when did Tywin began to muster his armies? The same time as Robb (i.e. after Ned's imprisonment/Robert's death) or already earlier? Given the proximity to the RL (in contrast to Robb) it might be the former. The latter would be high treason if it came out.Earlier, around the time word got out of the Catnaping.But he's smart, he didn't strike right away because he wanted Ned to attack first and break the king's peace. Of course, when Robert died Tywin had nothing to worry about and he "officially" attacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Exactly. It was a reckless plan but Tywin had no choice. Of course he had a choice. I don't see Mace Tyrell going and pillaging and causing chaos because Margaery was arrested. Placing your forces as a preventive move, yes. Using them, that's a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Didn't Tywin admit to the raids when talking with Tyrion? Or am I not recalling correctly? As far as Robert always siding with Cersei. He didn't after the Joffrey-Arya incident, when Cersei wanted Arya punished. Nor did he side with her when he honored her and made Ned the Hand again. And that was minor compared to Tywin attacking the Tullys and then attacking the King's Hand who's delivering justice under the King's banners, for goodness' sake. Robert also tells Ned that he needs him in order to release himself from the Lannister tentacles (I'm paraphrasin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exp(ix) Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 "I keep... I kept... I kept an alehouse, m'lord, in Sherrer, by the stone bridge. ... “After the Hand’s tourney, it were, before the war come,” Chiswyck was saying. “We were on our ways back west, seven of us with Ser Gregor. Raff was with me, and young Joss Stilwood, he’d squired for Ser in the lists. Well, we come on this pisswater river, running high on account there’d been rains. No way to ford, but there’s an alehouse near, so there we repair." ... Another talkative brewer that the Mountain wronged? Does the Mountain just hate talkative brewers? Or was the it the same brewer and he is pinning it on the Mountain later at a different time? They're different people. One village has a stone bridge, the other didn't even have a ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 It was Ser Raymun Darry, after all, that observed Eddard's "do it myself" attitude with execution. Tywin would know nothing about it.Eddard had a reputation. Doing an execution yourself was part of that reputation. Tywin most likely knew about it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 What do you mean by "attack the Riverlands" though? The raids, or the later battles? Tywin only launched the actual invasion after King Robert's death. As for the raids and capture-exchange plan: it would be a full mugging against the Starks, yes, but Tywin would just say "they started it" and Robert would shrug it off. What's Robert gonna do, attaint him? March on the Rock? Tywin attacks Roberts peacetime abd wartime allies. He burns and rapes Roberts peasants. He attacks men under the King's banner and takes the King's hand hostage who is basically the king as he decrees with the King's name while said king is away. There are multiple accounts of war, treason abd high treason here. And you think he's going to get away with it?As in I've seen people say ned would have to kill an innocent kid or young adult because it would make him and Robert look weak,but somehow it would be ok for one man to break the piece and rape a few thousand, kill men under the King's banner etc? Come on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ira_gaines Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 Tywin only launched the actual invasion after King Robert's death. Is that for sure? It's confusing because in the TV series he sends Jamie to Riverrun before King's Landing get news of Robert's injury (although in the same episode). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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