R+L=J v.97

[keira_targaryen]

If R & L were married in Old-Valyrian style, Aerys or Rhaella prob. would have officiated (Aerys was familiar w/the ptwp prophecy, and if they needed the marriage to remain a secret until the rebellion was crushed, why involve anyone (like a septon?) that might betray their secret?). If either of them knew about the wedding, they very well might have known where to find him. Knowing it was Aerys who sent Hightower to find Rhaegar in the first place, and the fact that he found him, could indicate Aerys had a goon idea of where to find them.

Thank you! That's what I think too.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Not to mention this

Jon was mentioned in other people's PoV within the books.

[sabrecmc]

I wonder to the extent Rhaegar was attempting to somewhat recreate Aegon and his sisters situation...with Elia cast in the role of the more demure Rhaenys and Lyanna the more war-like Visenya? If that was somehow tied into his concept of the prophecy. I don't know. Just spit-balling.

[MtnLion]

But that's my point until ned knew the truth Lyanna was a hostage, she would be precious for Aerys. And we know he ordered H to bring R, but We dont really know more. We know what GRRM want us to know.

My point is: Aerys could ordered H to bring Rhaegar and Lyanna but like you said he only ordered for Rhaegar. Why?

Aerys was mad but he wasn't stupid, he knew Ned and Robert wanted Lyanna, why Not use her?

What is the reason for the rebellion, again? Oh yeah, Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn send him the heads of Robert and Ned. Jon refused and the three of them went to war against Aerys. Ned and Robert weren't after Lyanna, they were after Aerys! Would Lyanna have been valuable to Aerys? Certainly, he could threaten to roast her, but Ned and Robert would lose their heads if they capitulated. In short Lyanna being a hostage would not resolve the rebellion, which demanded that Aerys abdicate.

[Ygrain]

But Ser Arthur is dead and Edric wasn't alive, so how can they vouch for anything? I suppose there could be some documents/decrees hidden, but Cersei showed us just how ineffective a piece of paper is.

I was responding to the claim that the marriage was somehow made invalid by not being witnessed by many people. Fourteen years ago, Arthur was alive and his word would have sufficed.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Wouldn't they put it in the records of that time period like they do with births and deaths?

[Chebyshov]

They might have been fighting a war rather than updating the books.

[stateofdissipation]

I just now saw this but a few things.

1) I think it's worth remembering that age and sexuality in Westeros is different than it is in our world. Lyanna was a "teen" but if she's flowered then she's a maiden, able to be wedded and bedded by the customs of Westoers. It's not considered perverse. Littlefinger is creepy because he loves/desires the daughter of the woman he lusted after for years, not because of Sansa's age.

2) Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna? Well. If he discovered that she was the KotLT he may have wanted to acknowledge her bravery and valor but quietly because Aerys believed the knight to be his enemy. So it could be a combo of romantic infatuation and his desire to recognize her as the KotLT

1) I think it's worth remembering that age and sexuality in Westeros is different than it is in our world. Lyanna was a "teen" but if she's flowered then she's a maiden, able to be wedded and bedded by the customs of Westoers. It's not considered perverse.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted---GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050/

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Tell me two things:

1. How do you know that they will have riders? It's likely, not known yet. And a 'rider' can mean two things. The dragon doing w/e he likes and someone on top of it, or a dragon doing what the rider tells him/her/it to do. At this point, we have only seen 1 rider, not 3. It will most likely happen, but it isn't going to happen for sure.

2. How do you know that. We don't know that much about them. And who knows the Night's King (it's a KING after all) decides what his followers do. Do we know if the Night's King has a conscious or not? We don't know if he does or if he doesn't, so stating either is wrong. For all we know, the Others might come, kill the dragons to 'safe westeros from being burned.' And after they return to the lands of always winter and go to sleep until the dragons will be awakend again. Who knows?

If Jon will be on the IT, this is IMO the only possibility that makes any sense. But I still don't see it happen. More likely the 7 will be splitted up again in 7 seperate kingdoms.

1. From other texts (like The Blacks and the Greens), I get the idea that for a dragon to be an effective weapon against an enemy (that's not another dragon), it needs a human controlling it, to point the dangerous end towards the other army. An army of Others could be a different situation, being polar opposites of dragons and all. . .

2. Night's King is likely just a tale, like the Rat Cook. Who knows?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wouldn't they put it in the records of that time period like they do with births and deaths?

Jons birth has been taken up into the books ;) the thing is, they only had Neds word to go by...

[BearQueen87]

1. From other texts (like The Blacks and the Greens), I get the idea that for a dragon to be an effective weapon against an enemy (that's not another dragon), it needs a human controlling it, to point the dangerous end towards the other army. An army of Others could be a different situation, being polar opposites of dragons and all. . .

2. Night's King is likely just a tale, like the Rat Cook. Who knows?

Unless....

HBO really did give away that the NK is a real thing living in the Far North in the lands of Always Winter....

ETA: are we really on page 19??

[Ygrain]

2. Night's King is likely just a tale, like the Rat Cook. Who knows?

Oh, my sweet summer child... don't you think that a cold blue-eyed pale woman wanting a leader's seed sounds suspiciously much like a certain warm red-eyed pale woman wanting exactly the same?

[Doorlocks]

I just now saw this but a few things.

1) I think it's worth remembering that age and sexuality in Westeros is different than it is in our world. Lyanna was a "teen" but if she's flowered then she's a maiden, able to be wedded and bedded by the customs of Westoers. It's not considered perverse. Littlefinger is creepy because he loves/desires the daughter of the woman he lusted after for years, not because of Sansa's age.

2) Why did Rhaegar crown Lyanna? Well. If he discovered that she was the KotLT he may have wanted to acknowledge her bravery and valor but quietly because Aerys believed the knight to be his enemy. So it could be a combo of romantic infatuation and his desire to recognize her as the KotLT

1. An arranged marriage and genuine lust/love are different things. When Ned finds Robert's most recent bastard in GoT, he sees the mother as shockingly young. She's given birth, so she must be a maiden by Westerosi standards, but it's seen as another stain on Robert's character to Ned. And, again, it's her youth that Ned focuses on ("The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age.") Interestingly enough, this comes immediately after Lyanna's quote about love and a little bit before Ned thinks of Rhaegar in a positive light and explicitly in contrast with Robert. That would seem strange to me, if Rhaegar had actually displayed an attraction to shockingly young girls as well. As for Petyr, for me it's always been the age. I would argue that all of the grown men who show lust towards Sansa come off as creepy to varying levels, from the Hound to Littlefinger.

2. That's possible, but I was trying to look at it in light of the newer information we have, that the Tourney was actually a cover for the meeting of a conspiracy.

[keira_targaryen]

What is the reason for the rebellion, again? Oh yeah, Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn send him the heads of Robert and Ned. Jon refused and the three of them went to war against Aerys. Ned and Robert weren't after Lyanna, they were after Aerys! Would Lyanna have been valuable to Aerys? Certainly, he could threaten to roast her, but Ned and Robert would lose their heads if they capitulated. In short Lyanna being a hostage would not resolve the rebellion, which demanded that Aerys abdicate.

I never said it would end the RR, I said that she could be precious for Aerys.

[MtnLion]

Thank you! That's what I think too.

Both of you are neglecting that Aerys had asked the court where Rhaegar was, and no one knew. It is in desperation that Aerys sends Hightower out to find Rhaegar, asking that Rhaegar return to lead the loyalist forces. There is no indication that Hightower knew in advance where to find Rhaegar, and indeed it appears that Rhaegar returned to King's Landing just days before leading the forces to the Trident.

[BearQueen87]

2. That's possible, but I was trying to look at it in light of the newer information we have, that the Tourney was actually a cover for the meeting of a conspiracy.

Like that Rhaegar thought Lyanna would make a good ally? Or that she could help persuade Lord Rickard to R's cause?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Nothing has shown us yet that others can not. If the story's about the Nights King are true (him being the LC of the Nights Watch, a Stark etc.) are true, then why isn't it possible that somehow he managed to gain massive magic powers and raised an army of undeath. He aslo made them immortal (because they are undead..) And if he all did that, then his 'others' are his instruments.

You're stating that 'taming' a dragon and making him an instrument is only possible with dragons (and maybe other beasts/animals). I am safe to say it's also possible with people. Reek is Ramsey's instrument for sure, so why can't the others be the Nights Kings instruments? And if that is true, the Others aren't evil (at least in your opinion), but just the Nights King (assuming they are going to hurt the humans and we consider them 'good' ).

I guess I was not clear enough in what I meant. I meant that there does not appear to be a force that is not an Other who controls the Others. So even if NK is responsible for everything--NK is still an Other. There is no person or non-Other force--to our knowledge--who could be controlling the Others.

[Chebyshov]

2. That's possible, but I was trying to look at it in light of the newer information we have, that the Tourney was actually a cover for the meeting of a conspiracy.

Varys blew that cover though, so whatever was planned was moot once Aerys decided to attend.

[BearQueen87]

I never said it would end the RR, I said that she could be precious for Aerys.

Precious in what regard? What does Aerys gain by having L as a hostage?

[Doorlocks]

1) I think it's worth remembering that age and sexuality in Westeros is different than it is in our world. Lyanna was a "teen" but if she's flowered then she's a maiden, able to be wedded and bedded by the customs of Westoers. It's not considered perverse.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted---GRRM

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1050/

This reminds me of a curious thought I had the other day: what if Rhaegar and Lyanna actually married at Harrenhal? Either as part of a political scheme or simply because Rhaegar wanted to do so (driven by Prophecy even then?). The idea that Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was the symbolic seal of a marriage rite we're not familiar with, done secretly but witnessed by hundreds, is perversely interesting. We then have an reason, in line with what GRRM is saying above, for why Rhaegar would then wait until Lyanna was fifteen or sixteen to "abduct" her.