R+L=J v.97

[UnmaskedLurker]

I like how in every post of his, Lord Varys has made sure to state that Rhaegar and/or his actions wrt to Lyanna were "stupid." In the end, what really made him look stupid is that he lost to Robert on the Trident. If the fight had gone the other way, he likely ends up as the king. That's not to say that he is beyond reproach. Because, like every other character in the story, he was imperfect. But, I'm not a big fan of people trying to pass off their personal dislike of a character as legitimate criticism.

While we don't for sure know what is going to happen, consider for a moment that the child Rhaegar had with Lyanna is the odds on favorite to be the savior of humanity. Total idiot, right?

This is exactly what I think is the problem.

Yes, I remember that first time you opened a new thread before the last one was locked--and I think it was I who mentioned that we were getting close to needing a new thread. But I agree that it gets too confusing when the old thread is still pinned at the top and open and the new thread is floating. We probably should go back to the old system.

P.S. Yes, I tend to think that Lord Varys is letting his personal hatred of Rhaegar and polygamy interfere with his objective analysis of the text--and color his interpretation of the reading he attended (and using the fact that he was at the reading to push his views more strongly).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

He didn't really send Jon to the Wall. Jon went of his own accord and wishes. Ned was actually against the idea for a quick minute in Cat II in GOT.

While your words ring true, Ned was the Lord who let that happen. He is guilty of it, says his conscience.

Also, I did not read every post posted since I went to bed but from what I saw

I am busy trying to catch up, but also haven't read the last 4 pages of v.92, the thread I missed...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wrt to your last point, I don't really think the best way to get out of the problems that a polygamous marriage present is to make another one. :)

Heh, yeah, maybe.. :)

I do hope that GRRM will eventually tell us how Rhaegar thought to get through all of it without any troubles.. and what his thoughts were the second he realised lots of troubles were arising..

[UnmaskedLurker]

The fact that I call people stupid is no proof that I don't like that. I also happen to like Aenys I, although he most certainly was stupid...

Rhaegar was stupid politically, that's all I'm saying. He caused a rebellion and thus the death of thousands of people for either love or 'prophecy'.

One could also make a case that people who consider themselves to be tool of gods, i.e. who try to fulfill ancient prophecies, have serious issues of their own...

And do you really think Rhaegar could have given the Realm peace as king, assuming that he could somehow bloodlessly depose Aerys - if he had to kill him, things would have been even worse -, with two wives?

The next succession crisis would have followed soon after...

You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions and post hoc rationalizations. Westeros is a place in which prophesy are accepted as real. So it is not just a "love" of prophesy, but a duty to try to fulfill the prophesy. As J. Star pointed out--Jon appears poised to be the savior of humanity, so without R's "love" of prophesy, Planetos might have been doomed altogether. Planetos is not earth--on Planetos, prophesies have been proven to be real--there is magic and dragons--it is a different culture living under a different reality than our own. And the war was not a foreseeable consequence to R's actions--yes, indirectly it led to war, but R could not have expected Brandon to be so reckless. As far as whether Jon would have challenged Aegon for the throne at the time of Rhaegar's death--we have NO idea whether that would have happened. Rhaegar knew the history and would have tried to guard against such a problem. But the risk of that happening is less of a problem then failing to give birth to the person who will save the entire world.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not ruling out the whole possibility that Ned learned only at SE, but I disagree with your line of reasoning.. Ned had a duty to do which he couldn't just pass away to someone because it 1) wouldn't be the right thing to do, and 2) would make people wonder. Plus, as long as ToJ was not compromised, Lyanna was not in danger.

I don't agree that Ned could not have passed the duty to someone else. There is no reason why Ned personally had to go to SE. He could have put Jon Arryn in charge or someone else and slipped away with the other to ToJ. Given Ned's views about family, I don't see him taking on a military campaign of unknown duration and leave his sister at risk. I highly doubt that Ned knew where Lyanna was before ending the siege at SE. Which seems to make Ashara the likely candidate to tell Ned, as she would have known given the likely support Starfall was giving to ToJ. Which means that the person who told Hightower the location was probably someone Rhaegar told before leaving KL (Elia?) and not the same person who told Ned.

[BearQueen87]

You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions and post hoc rationalizations. Westeros is a place in which prophesy are accepted as real. So it is not just a "love" of prophesy, but a duty to try to fulfill the prophesy. As J. Star pointed out--Jon appears poised to be the savior of humanity, so without R's "love" of prophesy, Planetos might have been doomed altogether. Planetos is not earth--on Planetos, prophesies have been proven to be real--there is magic and dragons--it is a different culture living under a different reality than our own. And the war was not a foreseeable consequence to R's actions--yes, indirectly it led to war, but R could not have expected Brandon to be so reckless. As far as whether Jon would have challenged Aegon for the throne at the time of Rhaegar's death--we have NO idea whether that would have happened. Rhaegar knew the history and would have tried to guard against such a problem. But the risk of that happening is less of a problem then failing to give birth to the person who will save the entire world.

As to the bolded: recall that Rhaegar carried a sense of doom about him his whole life. He felt weighted by the prophecy and the role he had to play--first as TPTWP and then as father of TPTWP. Whatever he thought TPTWP must do to save all of Planetos he knew would be worth it, but not without steep cost.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Gods, this thread goes fast....

As to Rhaella having been the person who told Gerold Hightower where to find Rhaegar: that creates the problem that more people must have known about ToJ, as Ned learns somewhere around Storm's End where Lyanna is (I doubt he would have gone to SE first if he had known her location before), and someone must have told him. It can't have been Rhaella, because Rhaella was on Dragonstone.

As to whether Rhaegar believed that Aegon was TPTwP: I guess we disagree. I've already shown once that Aegon fitted more criteria than Jon. In addition, the idea on Jon would need Rhaegar to be expecting a boy.. Though the term "song of ice and fire" will have multiple correct interpretations, there will only be one interpretation per scenario. In he scenario of the prophecy about the promised prince, we are most likely talking about the battle between the Others (Ice) and the Promised Prince (a Targaryen Prince; Fire).

That doesn't mean that the song can't be associated with Jon in anoger scenario (probably a bit more overall, looking at the story).

I disagree that you have shown that Aegon fit more of the criteria than Jon. Most of the "clues" to who is TPTWP can only be known at the time of conception or birth. So at the time that R decided to go off with L, he could not know one way or the other whether these clues would be fulfilled for Jon. So R would have been watching for them. If I am correct that Jon, in fact, is TPTWP, these clues likely did come true (although only the conception issue would have been one R lived to see). The ice/fire connection would have been too tempting for Rhaegar not to at least strongly suspect that once again, he had been wrong about Aegon being TPTWP and L would give birth to TPTWP. And the opposing Fire to the Ice of the Others is the dragons--not the Targaryens (IMHO). The battle between the Others and the Dragons would be one of the interpretations of the title. But as to TPTWP, Jon fits the concept to a tee (you know what is coming next, don't you?)--he is A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified.

[UnmaskedLurker]

And we know Rhaegar didn't approach Rickard because...?

I think it would have come up at the trial and Rickard would have had a better idea that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna and would have told Brandon this information. Rhaegar seemed to know that Rickard could not break his promise to Robert. Rhaegar had to rely on the old ask for forgiveness rather than permission. Once Rickard knew the "deed was done" then he could have realized the political advantages of having a princess and eventual queen for a daughter.

[Shinjuku Thief]

He sent Jon to the wall, so yes, the promise was kept for fourteen years, then broken.

No, Ned didn't send Jon to The Wall, Jon made that decision for himself.

[RumHam]

Could it have been the case that Aerys chosing Rhaegar as the champion of House Targaryen during the war, shows how desperate Aerys was? That he saw no other option than asking the person he hadn't trusted 100% for a few years for help?

I'm sure he first tried to teach fire to ride a horse.

I don't think Rhaegar and Rickard met yet until KL.

Rhaegar wasn't in the capitol when Rickard was killed.

I don't agree that Ned could not have passed the duty to someone else. There is no reason why Ned personally had to go to SE. He could have put Jon Arryn in charge or someone else and slipped away with the other to ToJ. Given Ned's views about family, I don't see him taking on a military campaign of unknown duration and leave his sister at risk. I highly doubt that Ned knew where Lyanna was before ending the siege at SE. Which seems to make Ashara the likely candidate to tell Ned, as she would have known given the likely support Starfall was giving to ToJ. Which means that the person who told Hightower the location was probably someone Rhaegar told before leaving KL (Elia?) and not the same person who told Ned.

I've always liked the idea that Ashara told Ned, and the guilt of indirectly leading to her brother's death drove her to suicide.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

No, Ned didn't send Jon to The Wall, Jon made that decision for himself.

And was he of age? Did neither his father nor the Lord of Winterfell oppose?

While your words ring true, Ned was the Lord who let that happen. He is guilty of it, says his conscience.

[Mithras]

2) Jon as the main antagonist of the series who will lead the Others against the realms of men. Is this...is this Heresy? Is that what they do over there? I've never looked cause it has more iterations than we do. At any rate...I don't think so. I don't think thats how Jon is being set up.

They claim that Jon will be the new Night's King and he will be the protagonist of the story. They do not like firebreathing dragons or Dany AFAIK.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think it would have come up at the trial and Rickard would have had a better idea that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna and would have told Brandon this information. Rhaegar seemed to know that Rickard could not break his promise to Robert. Rhaegar had to rely on the old ask for forgiveness rather than permission. Once Rickard knew the "deed was done" then he could have realized the political advantages of having a princess and eventual queen for a daughter.

Bringing this up at the trial would confirm Aerys' belief that the Starks were trying to betray him, and rightfully so. The second Rickard brings this up, he has admitted to the crime and will be executed. Sure, that turned out to happen anyway, but Rickard didn't get to know that information until it was too late.

As for Rickard telling Brandon - why should he? Rickard is supposed to deal with the fallout of the abduction, not Brandon. Usually, when you're committing treason against the crown, you are not going to tell anyone except those that absolutely have to know - that's what Ned did when hiding Jon, for example.

[BearQueen87]

And was he of age? Did neither his father nor the Lord of Winterfell oppose?

From Jon I in AGOT

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn 15 on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

So I'd say that Jon was a very young man by Westerosi standards.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I've always liked the idea that Ashara told Ned, and the guilt of indirectly leading to her brother's death drove her to suicide.

Yes, that is one of the main reasons that I think Ashara was the one who told Ned. She presumably had the information (Starfell likely being the source of support for ToJ) and GRRM said that Ashara was not tied down at Starfall (hinting that she was somewhere else doing something important to the plot)--and then her apparent suicide would make complete sense (added to whatever happened to her daughter).

[UnmaskedLurker]

Bringing this up at the trial would confirm Aerys' belief that the Starks were trying to betray him, and rightfully so. The second Rickard brings this up, he has admitted to the crime and will be executed. Sure, that turned out to happen anyway, but Rickard didn't get to know that information until it was too late.

As for Rickard telling Brandon - why should he? Rickard is supposed to deal with the fallout of the abduction, not Brandon. Usually, when you're committing treason against the crown, you are not going to tell anyone except those that absolutely have to know - that's what Ned did when hiding Jon, for example.

Very good points. I withdraw my objections. It is possible Rhaegar spoke with Rickard and they plotted together for the marriage of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But I just don't think we have enough clues to know whether this happened or not. Rickard would be going back on a promise to Robert and, as you point out, arguably committing treason (although I am not 100% certain that agreeing for his daughter to marry Rhaegar would actually be treason). Rickard would have to keep the information secret, and assuming he did not know what Brandon was going to do until it was already done, telling Brandon at that point--after Brandon is taken by Aerys--would be pointless.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

130 posts overnight? Seriously? tl;dr, or at least not very properly, so sorry if I skipped an answer to this:

They didn't marry in complete secrecy, and you don't need a bunch of people to witness - just people whose word carries weight. Someone like KG who are held in high esteem. Someone like Dayne, a living legend, whose honour is beyond doubt... who happened to be with Rhaegar since the beginning.

But Ser Arthur is dead and Edric wasn't alive, so how can they vouch for anything? I suppose there could be some documents/decrees hidden, but Cersei showed us just how ineffective a piece of paper is.

I'm tellin' ya there's something in that tomb that will prove RL = LEGIT J....

With you a 100% here, I believe Jon will know before the end he is not a bastard, I just don't think he will ever be accepted as the true heir, unless it's through conquest.

[BearQueen87]

With you a 100% here, I believe Jon will know before the end he is not a bastard, I just don't think he will ever be accepted as the true heir, unless it's through conquest.

I agree with you. Jon won't be King because he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. No one (except Dany, who will bend the knee) will care about that. What they will care about is that he saved the realm by...doing a thing. I foresee a Great Council taking place after the War.

[Attitude]

2) Jon as the main antagonist of the series who will lead the Others against the realms of men. Is this...is this Heresy? Is that what they do over there? I've never looked cause it has more iterations than we do. At any rate...I don't think so. I don't think thats how Jon is being set up.

Great post about this in here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/114839-how-will-jon-survve-the-stabbing/page-18

It doesn't state that Jon is the main antagonist, but it states that 'the others maybe aren't actually 'bad'.'

Don't say I agree, but I like the linkes that were made there. Never even thought about it that way and I don't think it impossible. But then again, what is? And I can't say that I consider dragons to be good in any way.

I agree with you. Jon won't be King because he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. No one (except Dany, who will bend the knee) will care about that. What they will care about is that he saved the realm by...doing a thing. I foresee a Great Council taking place after the War.

I don't see Jon on the Iron Throne at any point. It is way to far stretched. His only possibility at this point to do so is using the wildlings to conquer it, but that won't last.

Jon = LoW or KotN makes sense, but that's about it. Most likely he will stay LC

[UnmaskedLurker]

I agree with you. Jon won't be King because he's the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. No one (except Dany, who will bend the knee) will care about that. What they will care about is that he saved the realm by...doing a thing. I foresee a Great Council taking place after the War.

I am not sure if we agree or not on this issue. While I am not sure that J becomes king at all--if he does, I think his parentage will be relevant. Sort of like with Robert, his Targ grandmother was relevant. If a GC decides who is the next king, Jon winning the Battle for the Dawn will make him a consensus choice. But being the legitimate son of Rhaegar will also be relevant to the decision. The GC would be unlikely to make Jon king--even if he wins the war--if he is still viewed as a bastard. So the information becoming known broadly would be important to Jon getting IT. Of course, the current rumors are that Jon will agree to keep the peace at the Wall and only be King at the Wall or something like that--but I hope that is not the way the series ends.