Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I think you alone with Walder are taking it to far.Hoster did not treat Walder any different than his other bannermen he married his daughters off to great houses because he needed the swords and alliances.And I'm sure the Tullys have intermarried with the Freys before this is just Walder's obsessive need to be married to every single house in Westeros.When did he ask for Edmure, Lysa, or Cat? It sounds like he just expected the Tullys to marry into his house like that would be such a prize.Would you think Skagos would have a justifiable grievance if they got angry at the Starks for not marrying into their family for the last couple of hundred years?He already had two major alliances. With the Starks and the Tullys forming the most powerful power bloc in the Kingdom. The only one that can compete with it in power is the Baratheon/Lannister power bloc and they hate each other. Have they married into House Frey before? There's no proof of it. He mentions it when he's talking to Cat. How Hoster wouldn't have any of his children marrying Freys. Seeing as he had Cat and Lysa marry a Stark and an Arryn respectively and tried to get Edmure to marry a Martell, it seems he only wanted Lord Paramounts. Skagos isn't as powerful as the Freys. A Bolton or a Manderly would have reason to complain. But the Boltons are enemies of House Stark and the Manderlys owe the Starks their lands and titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The amount of children Hoster has had nothing to do with it. Simply put, Hoster had three children and he wanted them to marry into Great Houses. Fair enough, but his heir was probab in his early 30s or at least late 20s and unmarried. Why not have him marry a Frey and bind them to House Tully like the other Great Houses do with their most powerful bannermen? If not don't expect loyalty. But why should Hoster have married Edmure to a Frey specifically, as opposed to a Bracken, Blackwood, Mooton, Piper, etc.? Why is Lord Walder especially entitled to marry one of his extensive brood to the Tully heir? I'm not saying it wouldn't have been a good match, but I don't get why it's perceived as a slight when it doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 There's no proof that he wouldn't have been loyal. In fact, the Freys fight loyally for Robb after the deal is made and only definitely break away after Robb broke his word. If Hoster treated the Frey's with respect, married into their family and they still proved to be very disloyal that's one thing. But he didn't and as such has no business complaining about it. They have no problem murdering kin at the RW, thus I doubt they would be anymore loyal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The ONLY thing that gets me is when folks fail to differentiate between the moral tone of the House Paramount of a region and the rest of the people in that region. The idea that Northerners as a group are x amount more honorable than the rest of Westeros because they have an notably honorable Lord Paramount is just ridiculous. That being said, though, I have no idea if that is a falsehood that's widespread and that people actually subscribe to or if it's just an artifact of this discussion, a straw man set up to more easily oppose Stark fans. Exactly. Umbers, Skagosi, mountain clansmen and Boltons are rapists, the Northmen did a lot of ravaging in the West, Boltons flay people, Wyman Manderly is a cannibal who feeds people the flesh of their brothers, and Ramsay is a Northman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 But why should Hoster have married Edmure to a Frey specifically, as opposed to a Bracken, Blackwood, Mooton, Piper, etc.? Why is Lord Walder especially entitled to marry one of his extensive brood to the Tully heir? I'm not saying it wouldn't have been a good match, but I don't get why it's perceived as a slight when it doesn't happen.Because Frey is their most powerful bannerman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Or the most common and blatant example: That the words of House Greyjoy somehow means nobody farms or even works on the II. :bang: It means that the IB in general look down on farming as what thralls do. That's undeniable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Actually it's presented as giving them a merciful death, none of them say they should be killed because they are dangerous. The only indication about their danger is when Ned is lecturing them about taking care of them and training them. It is never spoken as a reason for killing them. As I said he's obviously eager to do it from my perspective, he pulls out his sword immediately and demands the pup be handed over as soon as the suggestion of killing them is spoken. That indication is clearly there if you're so inclined to see it, just so happens that you're not. That's true. They're talking about mercy killing the direwolves. No. It really it's only seen that way if you purposely read everything he does in the most damning light possible. They all agree that the direwolves should be killed immediately. Either you condemn all of them or none of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 GRRM himself has said that's why the RW happened. Robb breaking his oath to marry a Frey girl was the straw that broke the camels back. If that hadn't happened, he'd still look for a way to separate himself from the Stark cause when they were losing, but the RW was a reaction to the slights. I'm not arguing about Robb breaking his oath being the spark, so to speak. I don't get the 90 years part. I know there is a passage in one of the books where Walder is grumbling about the disrespect from House Tully and being called "the Late Lord Frey". Does he specifically say the Tully's have been disrespecting the Frey's for 90 years? I'll have to look it up I suppose. But even so, Walder is very, very clearly depicted in the books as a character that is prickly and quick to perceive any slight to the honor of his house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Because Frey is their most powerful bannerman. What bannermen did Tywin marry his children into? What Martell was married to a Yronwood? Simply, there isn't requirement for a lord to marry his heir to one of bannermen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 But why should Hoster have married Edmure to a Frey specifically, as opposed to a Bracken, Blackwood, Mooton, Piper, etc.? Why is Lord Walder especially entitled to marry one of his extensive brood to the Tully heir? I'm not saying it wouldn't have been a good match, but I don't get why it's perceived as a slight when it doesn't happen. Because the Freys are more powerful and wealthier than the Brackens, Blackwoods, Mootons and Pipers... although marrying his family off to them wouldn't be a bad thing to do either. They have no problem murdering kin at the RW, thus I doubt they would be anymore loyal. The RW was a direct reaction years of slights to their family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 What bannermen did Tywin marry his children into? What Martell was married to a Yronwood? Simply, there isn't requirement for a lord to marry his heir to one of bannermen.No there isn't. But when Edmure is as old as he is and they still won't marry him to a Frey, a daughter of one of his most powerful retainers it looks like a slight. As in I'd rather have him not wed at all than marry one of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The RW was a direct reaction years of slights to their family. He wasn't slighted, moreover he is to blame for the reason why most people don't like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Not really. 1. Greyjoys are rapist murderers. 2. Tullys are generally nice, but Lysa is a Tully. 3. Sweetrobin is the only Arryn we see in the story, and he's not particularly sympathetic. 4. Compare Tywin and Ned, Jaime and Robb, Cersei and Sansa, and Tyrion and Bran. 5. Tyrells blamed two innocent people for a murder they commited. 6. Baratheons are killing each other. 7. Targs are insane and/or pyromaniacal. 8. Oberyn killed his opponent in a fight to first blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Considerin g that Hoster Tully also was responsible for fostering Littlefinger at Riverrun and thereby triggering his agenda (vengeance against the highborn etc.) he might well be the worst person in the series (sarcasm!) Someone should open a thread for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 For the love of god yer thesis was Robb being selfish going to war and Doran thinking about his people. This is untrue because we know Doran is only waiting. Unless you think Dany and Aegon will go unsupported by Dorne because Doran will think of what's good for his people. Doran is just as much a slave to his desire for vengeance as Robb was This. Doran kept Dorne out of the war for selfish reasons: he didn't want to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 8. Oberyn killed his opponent in a fight to first blood. Probably not. We don't know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 No there isn't. But when Edmure is as old as he is and they still won't marry him to a Frey, a daughter of one of his most powerful retainers it looks like a slight. As in I'd rather have him not wed at all than marry one of you. Not really. Not marrying into the Freys is not really a big deal. Limited number of Tullys means that it was not likely to happen. Not attending his last two marriages and Hoster being quite open about what he thinks of Walder is the slight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Their power is waning on these boards sadly. Soon, no one will fear their wrath anymore :P And thus none will want to troll them. NO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 This. Doran kept Dorne out of the war for selfish reasons: he didn't want to die. Read again the chapter where he talks about the children at the Watergardens. And again at least partially his motavion was that the people/children wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of a lost war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Not really. Not marrying into the Freys is not really a big deal. Limited number of Tullys means that it was not likely to happen. Not attending his last two marriages and Hoster being quite open about what he thinks of Walder is the slight.Which is why I said looks like and Walder isn't someone to let slights go, real or imagined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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