Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The Freys are self-indulgent bastards. They are Tully bannerman but they can never be counted on to be loyal. "The Late" Walder Frey. The Tullys have disrespected the Freys for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 And Robb broke his oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The trial that she didn't want or endorse? No it wasn't hypothetical and yes she is responsible... Who is arguing that exactly? No one! You're arguing with yourself here. There is no evidence but it is clearly implied, by the quotes that I just showed you. Not only does he want to kill them he demands for Bran to give it here because he wants to kill it right there and then. In contrast to when Ned has to kill Lady, which he agonizes over, Theon is eager to do it immediately and be the one to do it. No. Every single adult there agrees that the Direwolves should be killed right away. There is absolutely no indication that he got some sadistic enjoyment out of the thought of killing puppies for the heck of it. The adults thought that they were dangerous and as such should be killed. Theon and Ned included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I'm curious as to what you're referring to. Reflexive Sansa haters. There's plenty of them. They pop up on any Sansa thread. A common argument is that Sansa is too "southron" and isn't a "true Stark", whatever the hell that is. But that's a superficial reading of the character and in fact is rooted in this romantic view of the Starks and the north and northerners as somehow more "pure". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 ^^^ This is how I always read it too. He was only, what, sixteen at the time? A turn of events completely out of his control that lead to his opponent dying drops an extremely fearsome reputation right into his lap. Not such a bad thing for a guy like him who goes on to do some soldiering, especially when a persona of that kind provided a perfect counterpoint to Doran's caution and temperance later on down the road.Yeah, to be clear I'm not as certain as I think you are, just that I think GRRM has shown us enough to not assume rumour/rep = true and, in this case, there's no un-ringing that bell so might as well make use of it, and Oberyn's bright enough to see that. But I also think it's very possibly true, too. No idea what his morality is like outside his family. At least not until we get the books about his adventures that I know GRRM will write, one day. (Has to happen, no?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Out of all the people at the scene, who is the one to actually try and kill Bran and Rickon? Theon. The scene was obvious foreshadowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Reflexive Sansa haters. There's plenty of them. They pop up on any Sansa thread. A common argument is that Sansa is too "southron" and isn't a "true Stark", whatever the hell that is. But that's a superficial reading of the character and in fact is rooted in this romantic view of the Starks and the north and northerners as somehow more "pure". The one true Stark left is (or was) Jon. Maybe Rickon too, I reckon with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Out of all the people at the scene, who is the one to actually try and kill Bran and Rickon? Theon. The scene was obvious foreshadowing.What scene? The one where all the adults are saying they should be put down, including Ned until he's wooed/a bit spooked? Honestly, I think this is a reach. Theon doesn't stand out in that scene; what's there is about the harsh realities of Northern life. It's color; bleak grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The one true Stark left is (or was) Jon. Maybe Rickon too, I reckon with him.Not the kid who's learning the ancient magic of Bran the Builder and the CotF? You know, northern magic?Or the girl who's skinchanging a direwolf in her sleep that is leading a huge pack that eats Lannisters and Freys? You sure none of those kids are Starks? All of that sounds pretty Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Yeah, to be clear I'm not as certain as I think you are, just that I think GRRM has shown us enough to not assume rumour/rep = true and, in this case, there's no un-ringing that bell so might as well make use of it, and Oberyn's bright enough to see that. But I also think it's very possibly true, too. No idea what his morality is like outside his family. At least not until we get the books about his adventures that I know GRRM will write, one day. (Has to happen, no?) Ah well thanks for the clarification, and in any case I appreciate the healthy skepticism about the Westerosi rumor mill. I'm not totally convinced either I guess--the point about Oberyn's morality outside his family is a good one--but I think I fall on the more-likely-a-coincidence side of the spectrum. We can dream :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Um.Ned wanted to kill the pups because they would suffer and starve to death without their mother.He did not want to kill them because he enjoys killing.Jon told him it was a sign for 5 pups for 5 Starks (plus one bastard pup for the bastard) Considering Ned ordered some of his men to take Lady's body all the way back to WF for a proper burial and to keep the body out of Cersei's hands shows what a compassionate person he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The Tullys have disrespected the Freys for years.How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 No. Every single adult there agrees that the Direwolves should be killed right away. There is absolutely no indication that he got some sadistic enjoyment out of the thought of killing puppies for the heck of it. The adults thought that they were dangerous and as such should be killed. Theon and Ned included. I pretty much agree with this. If you read the text, Ned was clearly conflicted by it, but he does go along with the consensus before Jon makes his case. Regarding Theon, this could be a case of good old-fashioned GRRM trickery because clearly, the way it's written from Bran's POV, the reader is supposed to think Theon is an asshole at that point and Jon is just the greatest thing ever. But, if you read it more carefully, Theon isn't anymore an asshole than any of the other adults. Sure, Ned was ever so slightly and momentarily conflicted about killing the pups, but he agrees to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The Tullys have disrespected the Freys for years. Really? How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The one true Stark left is (or was) Jon. Maybe Rickon too, I reckon with him. Everyone has an opinion I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Um.Ned wanted to kill the pups because they would suffer and starve to death without their mother.He did not want to kill them because he enjoys killing.Jon told him it was a sign for 5 pups for 5 Starks (plus one bastard pup for the bastard) Considering Ned ordered some of his men to take Lady's body all the way back to WF for a proper burial and to keep the body out of Cersei's hands shows what a compassionate person he was.Is this a response to me? Can't tell.Fwiw, obviously there would be more compassion for a family pet than a wild animal you just found. They live surrounded by wild animals, it's only the species that makes this special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Um.Ned wanted to kill the pups because they would suffer and starve to death without their mother.He did not want to kill them because he enjoys killing. Jon told him it was a sign for 5 pups for 5 Starks (plus one bastard pup for the bastard) Considering Ned ordered some of his men to take Lady's body all the way back to WF for a proper burial and to keep the body out of Cersei's hands shows what a compassionate person he was. If this is a response to me, that was my point. All of the adults agreed that the Direwolves should be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 How? Really? How? The Late Lord Frey, refusing to marry one of his kids to a Frey and not going to Walders weddings for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Everyone has an opinion I suppose. Who would you consider a "real" Stark? Not to start an argument, just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 not going to Walders weddings for starters. I wouldn't do that either. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.