Addressing Stark bias: Part 2

[James Arryn]

What's this true Stark stuff?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

The one true Stark left is (or was) Jon. Maybe Rickon too, I reckon with him.

There's no "true" Stark, as there's no true anything. Not true Baratheon or Lannister. Who's the true Stark then, Ned or Brandon? The Starks are a family, and in the same vein as Arianne and Quentyn are different, so is Sansa from Bran, Bran from Arya, and them all from Jon. Hence, no true Starks. Just Starks.

And considering Sansa has built Winterfell in the snow of the Eyrie and has heard a wolf howling as she was descending the Eyrie, and her numerous connections to her Stark identity, it's ridiculous to believe she's not a Stark. She identifies with her Stark identity and ever since AGOT, she's proud of it.

Who would you consider a "real" Stark? Not to start an argument, just curious.

Someone who bears the name Stark. Simple as that. Otherwise, Ned wouldn't be one, or Brandon wouldn't be one, since both were so different.

[Lee-Sensei]

I wouldn't do that either. :P

Be fair. The Red Wedding is the result of 90 years worth of slights to Walder. Of course, after the RW I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding a Frey wedding.

[James Arryn]

If we're talking behavioural models, Ned's 'true Stark' is probably a lot more Arryn than Stark. Most Starks we read about are more of the Brandon/Rickon variety.

[Ingelheim]

Be fair. The Red Wedding is the result of 90 years worth of slights to Walder. Of course, after the RW I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding a Frey wedding.

90 years of what?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

If we're talking behavioural models, Ned's true Stark is probably a lot more Arryn than Stark. Most Starks we read about are more of the Brandon/Rickon variety.

Exactly what I'd think.

[A Bastard Snow]

Be fair. The Red Wedding is the result of 90 years worth of slights to Walder. Of course, after the RW I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding a Frey wedding.

Tywin slighted Walder more then Robb did.

I mean hell when Tywin was like 10 he insulted the Frey's and he gave a bastard Lannister with no claims to anything as a reward for the RW.

[Minsc]

The Late Lord Frey, refusing to marry one of his kids to a Frey and not going to Walders weddings for starters.

He has no responsibility to marry one of kids to a Frey nor does he have to go all of Walders Weddings

[John Doe]

There's no "true" Stark, as there's no true anything. Not true Baratheon or Lannister. Who's the true Stark then, Ned or Brandon? The Starks are a family, and in the same vein as Arianne and Quentyn are different, so is Sansa from Bran, Bran from Arya, and them all from Jon. Hence, no true Starks. Just Starks.

And considering Sansa has built Winterfell in the snow of the Eyrie and has heard a wolf howling as she was descending the Eyrie, and her numerous connections to her Stark identity, it's ridiculous to believe she's not a Stark. She identifies with her Stark identity and ever since AGOT, she's proud of it.

Someone who bears the name Stark. Simple as that. Otherwise, Ned wouldn't be one, or Brandon wouldn't be one, since both were so different.

I mean people who have the typical Stark traits, being honorable, just but hard, cold and remote and so on. I know that people who bear the last name Stark are Starks.

[Minsc]

I mean people who have the typical Stark traits, being honorable, just but hard, cold and remote and so on. I know that people who bear the last name Stark are Starks, thank you.

Neither Lyanna or Brandon were cold and remote, the issue is that families don't have a set personality.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

JonCon'sBeard, you know I love you, but 'lead a party to look for (Tyrion)' is a fairly ridiculous bar to set for loyalty.

To a certain point I agree. But, considering people is looking for Sansa driven for money, can't they offer a good reward or paying certain men to make a more organized search to complement what Cersei is doing? Or, in the woooorst case, boast and lie: "I'll bring the head of that murderous imp because we all love Lord Tywin!!!". We're talking about Tywin Lannister's death, and his murderer was the imp. I'ts not like they're after the Mountain (and in GoT, people actually wanted to go after the Mountain for what he did to the Riverlands).

PS: I love you too :3

[John Doe]

To a certain point I agree. But, considering people is looking for Sansa driven for money, can't they offer a good reward or paying certain men to make a more organized search to complement what Cersei is doing? Or, in the woooorst case, boast and lie: "I'll bring the head of that murderous imp because we all love Lord Tywin!!!". We're talking about Tywin Lannister's death, and his murderer was the imp. I'ts not like they're after the Mountain (and in GoT, people actually wanted to go after the Mountain for what he did to the Riverlands).

PS: I love you too :3

Nobody knows where he is hiding, a group of people would most likely take the money and walk away with it, never to return.

[Lee-Sensei]

Tywin slighted Walder more then Robb did.

I mean hell when Tywin was like 10 he insulted the Frey's and he gave a bastard Lannister with no claims to anything as a reward for the RW.

No he didn't. Robb virtually spat in their face. Tywin was right to say that the second son of Lord Frey wasn't the right match for a Lannister. Had it been the first son, I doubt Tywin would have had as much of a problem with it. They're still married into his family and the Freys got a good deal for the RW. Although how long they'll keep it is questionable.

He has no responsibility to marry one of kids to a Frey nor does he have to go all of Walders Weddings

That's true. He's not obligated... just don't expect loyal bannermen when you spit on their family repeatedly. The reason LP's marry into the families of their most powerful bannermen is to gain their loyalty through familial ties. Balon married a Harlaw, the Tyrells are married multiple times into the Hightowers and Redwynes and Jon Arryn's first wife was a Royce. They do it for a reason.

[John Doe]

Neither Lyanna or Brandon were cold and remote, the issue is that families don't have a set personality.

I know, wolves' blood and all that. But I think Jon resembles the Stark stereotype most. It's the same as when some people say Viserys is no true dragon.

[Minsc]

No he didn't. Robb virtually spat in their face. Tywin was right to say that the second son of Lord Frey wasn't the right match for a Lannister. Had it been the first son, I doubt Tywin would have had as much of a problem with it. They're still married into his family and the Freys got a good deal for the RW. Although how long they'll keep it is questionable.

That's true. He's not obligated... just don't expect loyal bannermen when you spit on their family repeatedly. The reason LP's marry into the families of their most powerful bannermen is to gain their loyalty through familial ties. Balon married a Harlaw, the Tyrells are married multiple times into the Hightowers and Redwynes and Jon Arryn's first wife was a Royce. They do it for a reason.

And Hoster married a Whent, simply if Walder wants people to marry his children stop making so you have a 100 heirs

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I mean people who have the typical Stark traits, being honorable, just but hard, cold and remote and so on. I know that people who bear the last name Stark are Starks.

There aren't a set of characteristics for any types of families. The Starks, as much as Targaryens, Lannisters, and Tullys, have people, and people can be entirely different, even if belonging to a certain family.

[Pecan]

Who would you consider a "real" Stark? Not to start an argument, just curious.

Basically, I disagree with the premise. The notion of one character being more of a "true Stark" than another is a romantic, silly idea. Most people, Starks included, are just people. They're a mix of strength and weakness, bravery and cowardice, kindness and cruelty. I think that's one of the overriding themes in the story. At this point, we know enough about Brandon to know that he was basically an entitled asshole, though I'm sure he had his good points as well. But was he any less of a "true Stark" because he wasn't as noble and compassionate as Ned? No, of course not. He was what he was.

Here's a link for you: http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/image/85589589538

There's a bunch of characters listed there with the name Stark. We don't know most of them. But, undoubtedly, some were braver and kinder than others, and probably there were a few outright cowards in there as well. Aside from a couple of cousin marriages, they all had mothers that were not named "Stark". So what does that make them?

[John Doe]

There aren't a set of characteristics for any types of families. The Starks, as much as Targaryens, Lannisters, and Tullys, have people, and people can be entirely different, even if belonging to a certain family.

As above, there are stereotypes, especially of dynasties. But we're off topic.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I know, wolves' blood and all that. But I think Jon resembles the Stark stereotype most. It's the same as when some people say Viserys is no true dragon.

The problem of the so-called Stark stereotype is that it isn't closely defined. It's what we have come to expect, but Jon draws a lot from Ned, and Ned was raised in the Vale, which would then make Jon more "Arryn" than Stark.

[Pecan]

Be fair. The Red Wedding is the result of 90 years worth of slights to Walder. Of course, after the RW I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding a Frey wedding.

Huh? What? I guess you must be joking.