Ser Jonny Loker Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I don't know if this is just a technicality, but are the Frey's even considered Stark bannermen? They are Tully bannermen, they ride with Robb primarily to aid the Tully's as the Riverlands have gone to war. They have no direct alliance with the Starks in fact they have more allegiance to the Lannisters as there are direct family connections. The Freys are self-indulgent bastards. They are Tully bannerman but they can never be counted on to be loyal. "The Late" Walder Frey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Does that mean we won't have the onion sleight this time in the thread? :( just cause i'm feeling deep right now : http://diaryofadepressed20something.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/winter-is-coming-but-snow-already-came.jpg Deep......snow? Btw Ygritte's expression...sexy as fuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 1) What of it? The Seastone Chair is his by right and he has every business wanting to sit on it. He spent half of his life as a hostage for it. 2) Read the chapter again. On the ship he expresses a desire to see his family again. Asha, Alannys, Balon and especially Dagmer. He also fondly remembers Aeron. He only sets that aside when he realizes that his families become hostile to him because he's been Starkified and even after spending a long trip with Aeron disrespecting and ignoring him, he still invites him to eat with him. 3) Except they weren't in defiance of Balons wishes. Balon was planning on taking Winterfell and immediately after taking it, Theon says to the people of Winterfell that he's taken it for his father and that they're Balons subjects. Not his. 4) Again. I'm not biased and making excuses. That's you. Theon doesn't owe his captors jack.I read the chapters as I was posting, thanks. I saw little else but arrogance, vanity and selfishness. He has no right to the Seastone Chair (this is your bias showing). Balon was king and he wanted Asha to succeed him. Even so, there's the Kingsmoot. Balon had specific instructions for Theon. He was sent to reave and that's that. His plot with Dagmar had nothing to do with Balon's desires. Once he claims Winterfell Balon doesn't even care nor does he want the castle. Enough with excuses.I've already said he doesn't own "his captors" (quotes because this is your bias showing) anything. If nothing else, he defied his father and ignored his sister's sound advice just so he could claim Winterfell for himself. Which shows you which family he really chose in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 *Stll eating popcorn and expecting this thread to get as mad as the other one* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The Freys are self-indulgent bastards. They are Tully bannerman but they can never be counted on to be loyal. "The Late" Walder Frey. Is it any wonder the Freys didnt want to help the Tullys during War of the Five Kings when Hoster is constantly bitching about his most powerful Bannermen. The Freys were late, had the war waged on longer they could have made teh difference. It is not like they stayed at home like the Tullys did during the Greens vs the Blacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 The funny thing is that there are two parallel discussions. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Yes. You know why? Because Tywin was his uncle, the Head of his family and also, his Liege Lord. You could even said that he was busy during the siege of RR, but once it was over he was free to go. Did he even suggest that he would like to lead a party to look for him in Westeros? No. Because he didn't care. No one cared that Tywin died. That is ridiculous. Daven wouldn't even know where to start looking for Tyrion and given the current state of affairs it would be beyond idiotic to go off on some revenge hunt for someone you don't even knows location. Why would Daven do it anyways? He was Tywin's nephew, the two probably respected each other but there is no great amount of love between them. I don't think anyone can question Kevan's love and devotion to Tywin, but do we see him rallying troops to go hunt down the missing Tyrion? No because it would be idiotic because Westeros is in turmoil and Kevan and Daven have brains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I agree the North's moral superiority is largely perpetuated by the how the Northern people, and esp. the Starks are initially presented. The early chapters coupled with the POV structure does seem to heavily influence one's viewpoint going forward. Sansa is a good example of this. Speaking of Sansa and the Stark ethos, a lot of the critique against the character stems from the perception that she's the least "Stark" of her siblings, she's too oriented to the South, and hence more superficial, feeble, etc. Oh gawd! This drives me crazy! I wonder are these people even reading the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Is it any wonder the Freys didnt want to help the Tullys during War of the Five Kings when Hoster is constantly bitching about his most powerful Bannermen. The Freys were late, had the war waged on longer they could have made teh difference. It is not like they stayed at home like the Tullys did during the Greens vs the Blacks. Now that I think about it it was pretty stupid that the Freys didn't kill Edmure, wasn't it? The Blackfish probably wouldn't father any children anymore so the Freys would have been likely to become Lord Paramounts, and they would have secured Riverrun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 JonCon'sBeard, you know I love you, but 'lead a party to look for (Tyrion)' is a fairly ridiculous bar to set for loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Cornered_Wolf Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 JonCon'sBeard, you know I love you, but 'lead a party to look for (Tyrion)' is a fairly ridiculous bar to set for loyalty. Seems easier than assaulting a castle in a blizzard when outnumbered though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Jonny Loker Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Oh gawd! This drives me crazy! I wonder are these people even reading the books? I'm curious as to what you're referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Seems easier than assaulting a castle in a blizzard when outnumbered though. Not really. And they probably wouldn't be attacking the castle anyway if Stannis wasn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Seems easier than assaulting a castle in a blizzard when outnumbered though.Not really. You know where the castle is (very little chance it's taken ship to Essos, for example) and generally speaking bad weather is sort of the ideal for storming a fortification...or any kind of visual issue, really.Which is why castles are intentionally surrounded by as little cover as possible, so that they can see out much better than they are seen. Bad weather equalizes, more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Cornered_Wolf Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Not really. You know where the castle is (very little chance it's taken ship to Essos, for example) and generally speaking bad weather is sort of the ideal for storming a fortification...or any kind of visual issue, really.Which is why castles are intentionally surrounded by as little cover as possible, so that they can see out much better than they are seen. Bad weather equalizes, more. IDK, assaulting said castle when outnumbered seems very likely to lead to death for many. Kicking around Essos searching for Tyrion seems likely to lead where whores go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 But you won't find Tyrion, whereas when assaulitg a castle you have a clear goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 IDK, assaulting said castle when outnumbered seems very likely to lead to death for many. Kicking around Essos searching for Tyrion seems likely to lead where whores go.Soldiers make their coin playing soldier a lot more than playing detective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Not really. You know where the castle is (very little chance it's taken ship to Essos, for example) and generally speaking bad weather is sort of the ideal for storming a fortification...or any kind of visual issue, really.Which is why castles are intentionally surrounded by as little cover as possible, so that they can see out much better than they are seen. Bad weather equalizes, more.Yea you build on a hill overlooking an area and cut down all trees around the area. Any inclimate weather favors the attacker as visibility is poor and its unexpected.Case in point D-Day.The weather was considered by the Germans to be too poor for a landing operation and they expected the allies to delay the invasion.We all know how that went. Also the best thing about bad weather is that it helps to hide your troop movements so that the enemy cant see what you are up too.Case in point with the Umber's digging pits outside the gates of WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 And as I said before, there are no Stark bannermen searching for Sansa either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Not sure we can say one way or another about that, tbh. It certainly wouldn't be out of character for later Oberyn, but that could be another Kingslayer formative but unfounded reputation thing that he grows into because, why not? ^^^ This is how I always read it too. He was only, what, sixteen at the time? A turn of events completely out of his control that lead to his opponent dying drops an extremely fearsome reputation right into his lap. Not such a bad thing for a guy like him who goes on to do some soldiering, especially when a persona of that kind provided a perfect counterpoint to Doran's caution and temperance later on down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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