Dorne Appreciation Thread

[Chebyshov]

Not sure why people like Arianne.I mean considering she didn't care about a young girl dying (Myrcella) and killed one of the only "good" ( I say good because the rest of the KG are pretty much all terrible while he at least didn't hit Sansa hard and actually feels terrible about it) members of the KG after lying to the poor bastard about loving him.

I just don't really like her or the Sand Snakes cause they want to avenge the death of children by.....murdering children.

Ellaria Sand is the only person I like as shes the only smart person.I mean Doran seems fixated on killing as many members of his family as possible.Sending Quentyn on a mission that Oberyn would have done far far far better with as he has actually been to Essos has contacts with sellswords and is one suave motherfucker.And instead send your hotheaded brother to KL and expect him to act calmly when he has never ever acted as such.

And now why not send his daughters who are just like him into the same place that got him killed.

Ellaria is the only person in/from Dorne still alive that I like

(I like Oberyn but his Montoya moment was so stupid."My Name is Oberyn Martell you kill my sister and her children prepare to die")

"Brace yourself citrus fruits being thrown at you are coming"

I'll save my lemon-pelting for later, lol. I will say that no one in Dorne, aside from Dorkstar, wanted harm to befall Myrcella. Arianne is really upset by her injury, and Tyene (granted, not the world's greatest political thinker) merely wanted to crown her as an act of war. Obara wanted to stick her spear into Tywin (they didn't hear about his death yet), so the closest we get to a Sand Snake wanting to harm any child was Nym, who planned to murder Jaime, Cersei, Tywin, and Tommen ("Lord Tywin’s golden twins, as payment for Elia’s children. The old lion, for Elia herself. And last of all the little king, for my father").

I'm not sure how you can say Aerys's death was on Arianne either. Hotah wouldn't have slain him if he hadn't charged, which he did as a suicide. All Arianne did was fuck him, and as she pointed out, Doran did tell her to entertain the guests. We are responsible for our own actions.

That's not to say the Queenmaker plot wasn't incredibly myopic on her end, but it wasn't malicious, at least where Myrcella was concerned. We were talking in another thread about how Arianne suffered from the "gap-scrap" on Martin's part; if he had left in the 5-year gap, then she might have been a wiser 22-year-old, who reflected on the mistakes of her past. Her storyline and her "lesson learned" is very rushed as it stands now.

[Danelle]

fAegon strikes me as easily manipulated. I mean, Tyrion didn't even have to have sex with him to get him to do exactly what he wanted.

That is a disturbing mental image for both Tyrion and Aegon.

I have to say that I am slightly dissappointed. This is a Dorne appreciation thread and yet no one has expressed any appreciation for Princess Elia Martell, perhaps I am the only one who thinks that her story is interesting as well.

Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit.

And no mention of her mother, Princess Martell, whose name has yet to be revealed to us or of the Yellow Toad of Dorne, the one and only Mariya Martell. Old, fat, blind but still remained Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.

[Winter's Knight]

I loved Arianne even during her harebrained scheme to crown Mycella. I distinctly got the impression that Doran was not the sort of father who'd allay her fears that he means to crown Quent instead of her.

“To rule? No. He left his cousin Ser Manfrey as castellan, old blind Ricasso as seneschal, his bailiffs to collect duties and taxes for his treasurer Alyse Ladybright to count, his shariffs to police the shadow city, his justiciars to sit in judgment, and Maester Myles to deal with any letters not requiring the prince’s own attention. Above them all he placed the Red Viper. My charge was feasts and frolics, and the entertainment of distinguished guests. Oberyn would visit the Water Gardens twice a fortnight. Me, he summoned twice a year. I am not the heir my father wants, he has made that plain. Our laws constrain him, but he would sooner have my brother follow him, I know it.”

Which naturally leads to resentment on her part-can you imagine how Robb'd react if Ned neglected his training like that? Arianne is twenty two years old yet not only does her father treat her like a Disney princess but also never sees fit to even share his plans for her future.

Then, when she does rebel, he imprisons her until she reaches breaking point:

I must be chaste and humble and contrite. I must throw myself at his feet and beg forgiveness, or I may never hear another human voice again.

I mean it's not like he could have prevented it-oh wait.

Someone told. “You knew, and yet you still allowed us to make off with Myrcella. Why?”

“That was my mistake, and it has proved a grievous one. You are my daughter, Arianne. The little girl who used to run to me when she skinned her knee. I found it hard to believe that you would conspire against me. I had to learn the truth.”

And why did he keep it a secret?

“The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . .”

“I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown.”

“I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk.”

He expects her either rule Dorne or be queen but doesn't think she can keep a secret. Even though she seems to have hidden her knowing about Quent being Doran's actual heir and her resentment from Doran.

[Endymion I Targaryen]

If only Dorne was introduced earlier and Arianne was a major POV!Dorne is amazing!And all characters we see there are interesting.I wish I could say the same for other locations.

[Lord Reaver]

If only Dorne was introduced earlier and Arianne was a major POV!Dorne is amazing!And all characters we see there are interesting.I wish I could say the same for other locations.

How is Areo interesting ?

[Red Tiger]

How is Areo interesting ?

Not to mention Obara and Darkstar.

Though other than that, I like all Dorne characters.

[Chebyshov]

Areo is a window into Dorne, 'tis all. It's like he was purposely stripped of any intrigue/personality to make him the perfect observer.

[Malik Ambar]

How is Areo interesting ?

Who doesn't like Terminator? ;)

[Lord Reaver]

Who doesn't like Terminator? ;)

Uh, I wouldn't exactly call T-1000 an interesting literary character.

[Winter's Knight]

Not to mention Obara and Darkstar.

Though other than that, I like all Dorne characters.

Obara is amazing!

She spent her whole life internalising the day her father took her away from her mother-she believes that tears are weak. As a result her father's upbringing leaves her unable to even mourn his passing. When he dies, the only way she knows how to channel her grief is with fighting, with weapons and war. So she settles on Oldtown, not necessarily because it has anything to do with his death but because it's the only thing she can do-she cannot cry for him because she thinks he'd that but she can kill for him.

[Malik Ambar]

Uh, I wouldn't exactly call T-1000 an interesting literary character.

I think his purpose is to provide a completely unbiased narration, as he's the only one who won't be affected by emotional thinking.

[Red Tiger]

Obara is amazing!

She spent her whole life internalising the day her father took her away from her mother-she believes that tears are weak. As a result her father's upbringing leaves her unable to even mourn his passing. When he dies, the only way she knows how to channel her grief is with fighting, with weapons and war. So she settles on Oldtown, not necessarily because it has anything to do with his death but because it's the only thing she can do-she cannot cry for him because she thinks he'd that but she can kill for him.

Truly an example of exquisite character writing.

[WSmith84]

Does anyone else think that the Myrcella plot might have been better if perhaps Arianne was the inside woman instead of the instigator? Like if one of Oberyn's daughters, maybe Tyene, had instigated the plot and Arianne went undercover of her own volition to find out who was involved? It would require Tyene to be written a little differently; less nakedly hostile to Doran and open about her wish to crown Myrcella, plus she might have had to be the one to seduce Arys. And Darkstar would have to be written as to not so obviously want to kill her. But it would have been interesting to see, especially if Doran still knew about the plot and allowed it to happen. That way, Doran's plan would ruin Arianne's investigation and it would cast Arianne in a better light (and I love Arianne anyway). Much as I love ASOIAF, I do think it could have done with a POV woman who was a decent game player, and I don't think we needed to see Arianne learning how to play.

This could have all played into Arianne's and Doran's strained relationship. Doran never seems to show any trust in Arianne or give her any responsibility, so Arianne doesn't tell him of her undercover role beforehand, because she doesn't think he'll trust her with it. This would also give Doran more of a reason to trust Arianne more in future after their reconciliation; she's demonstrated that she knows how to play the game and Doran has erred by not entrusting her with more responsibility in the past.

I think an error caused by the strained relationship would have presented Arianne in a better, smarter light than an error caused by her own foolishness. Maybe its just me, but it would have been nice if the main female character in Dorne (the place with the most gender equality in the Seven Kingdoms) was every bit as clever as the main male character, even when different.

Back on topic though; I love Dorne. I love its gender equality stuff, its relaxed attitude to sex, its independence, and, of course, its lemons. I love Arianne and Ellaria; Ellaria has one of my favourite speeches in the entire series. I find Doran an interesting character, even though I'm not sure how I feel about him still.

[SeanF]

The Dornish obsessions with revenge and poison are perhaps less pleasant aspects of their character.

WTR Arianne, I have no high opinion of her intelligence. I don't think she has any idea of the danger that she, her family, and her nation face. As far as she's concerned, the Game of Thrones is all a jolly lark.

But, I agree with Winter's Knight, that her father's behaviour towards her is inexcusable. His assessment of her character may be entirely correct, but that makes it all the more imperative that he should train her up as much as she can. Get her to do all sorts of unglamorous, but essential, activities of government, like studying law, collecting taxes, attending council meetings, trying cases etc.

If after all that, Doran sincerely concluded that she was unfit to rule, then he owed it to his people to disinherit her. Now, he's failing fast, and he's placed the future of Dorne in the hands of three very reckless people, Arianne, Tyene, and Nymeria.

[Wmarshal]

How is Areo interesting ?

Because he is so simple, in a word full of liars, no one so honest.

[Lord Reaver]

its independence,

What independence? Oh, you mean the completely insignificant title held by the Lord of the region?

[Chebyshov]

@WSmith84, I think Arianne is clever. If Doran had truly been trying to steal her birthright, which was a logical conclusion to reach given her treatment of her and the letter she discovered, then this Queenmaker plot was kind of her only recourse and her best option. Should she have done more research about the true strength of Dorne's options? Probably. But she saw an opportunity and went for it.

I mean, she's a total ENFP, so finer details have never been her strong-suit, but I think she's quite smart, and will have the chance to prove it next book.

[Lord Reaver]

Because he is so simple, in a word full of liars, no one so honest.

Sandor and Vic are both as honest, if not more. And both of them are much, much more interesting than the living camera.

[SeanF]

"What the hell will the High Sparrow do when he meets Tyene?"

Immediately forget his vow of chastity, and then blame Tyene for seducing him.

[WSmith84]

@WSmith84, I think Arianne is clever. If Doran had truly been trying to steal her birthright, which was a logical conclusion to reach given her treatment of her and the letter she discovered, then this Queenmaker plot was kind of her only recourse and her best option. Should she have done more research about the true strength of Dorne's options? Probably. But she saw an opportunity and went for it.

I mean, she's a total ENFP, so finer details have never been her strong-suit, but I think she's quite smart, and will have the chance to prove it next book.

Oh, I agree that she is clever, I just think perhaps writing her as more so would have been a good move. Her father's treatment of her was crap and I don't blame her for her resentment one bit. I simply think she'd be a stronger character if she was shown to be as clever as her father despite his lack of educating her. Say if Arianne had taken it upon herself to learn all she could after she found her father's letter, determined not to be cheated of her rights. Then she goes undercover to neutralise a plot that she thinks unwise only for her father's interference to mess things up. They reconcile after Arianne explains why she did what she did and Doran explains why he treated her as he did (still think he was a dick for it, regardless of his ambitions for her to be queen). This would leave them on an equal footing, with Arianne perhaps higher up.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong and my idea is terrible. But I think showing a gender-equal society and then showing the main female to be as clever as the main male would have been a strong move.