Casually smashing a theory to pieces....

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3. It is very easy to miss, to be sure;

“Too rich, thought Tyrion, Too beautiful. It is never wise to tempt dragons. The drowned city was all around them. A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale and leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.”--DwD

Drogon is out and about, flying hundreds of miles away from Meereen and came right to Tyrion. Dragons are drawn to dragon blood.

4. Sure, I guess eventually Victarion could give Tyrion the horn. I just personally don't see that happening. I dont see the horn as something Vic is going to let go of easily. And I don't think that Tyrion needs to know about Aerys before he goes to ride Viserion. I mean it would probably give him confidence on the approach, but I don't think the reveal has to be made before he can ride.

5. Well, IMO, there must be a reason for Tyrion constant bitching and moaning and very nasty jokes about the LAnnisters during all of his journey in DwD. The plot point to me is that he is building himself up to not care at all when he finds out he is not the son of this man he hates, and only half-siblings to Jaime and Cersei, whom he also really really loathes, or at least says and thinks he does( I reserve that him and Jaime may reconcile at some point, but who knows). Here are a few, only from his journey in DwD and WoW;

3. Like has been said above, the description is "pale", and Drogon is all black. In addition, by then, Drogon would have been quite big already, and I expect that someone who has spend his childhood and adult life reading many books about dragons, and looking at pictures of dragons (I assume those were in those books), would recognize a dragon should he encounter one.

It isn't logical, whether Tyrion has Targaryen blood or not, that a dragon flew from Meereen to the Shy Maid only to fly over once, and then return to Meereen. Viserion and Rhaegal were already locked up, and Drogon had already been bound to Dany. Drogon especially would have no business looking for other humans (except to eat ;p) ). As Drogon made his lair in the complete other direction of Meereen, he has no reason to search for potential riders (he already is claimed by one), and the description doesn't match, it is highly unlikely that it actually was him.

As to what it was, if not a dragon.. Some sort of animal, perhaps a large species of bats? Potentially even affected with grey scale (this quote came from a passage right before the attack of the stone men, right?), or otherwise affected by the fog.

4. I argee that Victarion won't give Tyrion the horn to use as he pleases. But that doesn't mean that Tyrion won't succeed in manipulating him. Tyrion is familiar with Moqorro, after all. That could help Tyrion get close to the horn.

5. The quotes hadn't really been necessary, I'm quite familiar with Tyrions arc in Dance :) But thanks anyway

I agreed that Tyrion hates Tywin and Cersei, and isn't all too fond of Jaime right now either. But that doesn't mean that Tyrion has to be a secret Targaryen bastard. The rumours about Aerys and Joanna (how he desired her, and, as of the World Book, how she had been his paramour) will have lead (possibly) to Tywin having doubts about Tyrions paternity, which then caused his behavior towards Tyrion to develop the way it did. Which has formed Tyrion, greatly.

That, I think, is the important part of the Aerys/Joanna/Tywin-arc. What Tywin suspected or feared, and how that made him act towards Tyrion, and how that made Tyrion the man he is today.

After all, the remark on how Tyrion stood as tall as a king, can be countered by the fact that in Jons POV, Jaime Lannister was described as "that's how a king should look". In addition, Tyrion's two different coloured eyes aren't Targaryen only. Tyrion's pale hair? Tommen has that as well, IIRC, and Tommen is definitly Lannister.

So, no. While I don't completely rule out that Tyrion might someday ride a dragon, I am not convinced that he's secretly a Targaryen.

Ok, I concede the dragon may be Viserion and Not Drogon, but a Dragon it is. IIRC about the timing, Viserion and Rhaegal would be already locked up at this point, and Drogon is the one 'who flies farthest' from Meereen.

Actually, since there are so many hints about Tyrion and Viserion in Dance, maybe this is Viserion and it is before he has been locked up. The time line between Dany and other POV's is hard to tell exactly.....UNless someone else knows for sure?

Try here :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

3. Like has been said above, the description is "pale", and Drogon is all black. In addition, by then, Drogon would have been quite big already, and I expect that someone who has spend his childhood and adult life reading many books about dragons, and looking at pictures of dragons (I assume those were in those books), would recognize a dragon should he encounter one.

It isn't logical, whether Tyrion has Targaryen blood or not, that a dragon flew from Meereen to the Shy Maid only to fly over once, and then return to Meereen. Viserion and Rhaegal were already locked up, and Drogon had already been bound to Dany. Drogon especially would have no business looking for other humans (except to eat ;p) ). As Drogon made his lair in the complete other direction of Meereen, he has no reason to search for potential riders (he already is claimed by one), and the description doesn't match, it is highly unlikely that it actually was him.

As to what it was, if not a dragon.. Some sort of animal, perhaps a large species of bats? Potentially even affected with grey scale (this quote came from a passage right before the attack of the stone men, right?), or otherwise affected by the fog.

4. I argee that Victarion won't give Tyrion the horn to use as he pleases. But that doesn't mean that Tyrion won't succeed in manipulating him. Tyrion is familiar with Moqorro, after all. That could help Tyrion get close to the horn.

5. The quotes hadn't really been necessary, I'm quite familiar with Tyrions arc in Dance :) But thanks anyway

I agreed that Tyrion hates Tywin and Cersei, and isn't all too fond of Jaime right now either. But that doesn't mean that Tyrion has to be a secret Targaryen bastard. The rumours about Aerys and Joanna (how he desired her, and, as of the World Book, how she had been his paramour) will have lead (possibly) to Tywin having doubts about Tyrions paternity, which then caused his behavior towards Tyrion to develop the way it did. Which has formed Tyrion, greatly.

That, I think, is the important part of the Aerys/Joanna/Tywin-arc. What Tywin suspected or feared, and how that made him act towards Tyrion, and how that made Tyrion the man he is today.

After all, the remark on how Tyrion stood as tall as a king, can be countered by the fact that in Jons POV, Jaime Lannister was described as "that's how a king should look". In addition, Tyrion's two different coloured eyes aren't Targaryen only. Tyrion's pale hair? Tommen has that as well, IIRC, and Tommen is definitly Lannister.

So, no. While I don't completely rule out that Tyrion might someday ride a dragon, I am not convinced that he's secretly a Lannister.

Try here :)

3. Well I still think it is Drogon, if that timeline is correct and V&R are already locked up, Drogon is the only choice. I'm sorry but the alternative, large bat or wyvern are not good enough answers for me, sort of just answers pulled out of a hat when the obvious answer is right in front of you. Why has no one else ever seen one of these wyverns or large bats? Why would Tyrion be the only one? And most importantly, why wouldn't it be one of the large creatures with leathern wings we are already familiar with in the books? why throw in some unknown animal at this point while Tyrion happens to have his mind on dragons at that exact second? I'm not saying it's impossible just that wyvern or bat makes no sense.

4. fair enough. Tyrion does know Morroquo (whom identified him as a dragon among the other dragons). So I guess it's possible he could end up with a horn. For the record, I don't think so at all.

5. I always feel posts have more weight with quotes from the books, but I know you have vast knowledge :)

6. I agree that just because Tyrion hates his family does not = him being the bastard of Aerys. But posters are constantly bringing up Tyrions arc, and I think it is a valid point in his arc, that he is moving away from House Lannister. It is not proof, just another hint in my book.

7. Completely agree about Tywin being suspicious about Tyrions parentage, which was one of the reasons he treated him the way he did. Treat a dwarf son like shit, treat a dwarf son who could possibly be fathered by another man like total shit.

8. I have always thought hair and eyes are the weakest arguments for A+J=T and you will not see me using those as solid proof of anything.

9. I think you meant Targaryen, not Lannister. WOAIF confirms that 'Valyrians alone in the world had the power to tame and subdue dragons' (something we already knew from the books and all short stories, but many still need that confirmation). So yeah if Tyrion rides a dragon, the reason will be that his father is actually Aerys. (IMHO, of course)

thank you for the link to the timeline :) very helpful

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9. I think you meant Targaryen, not Lannister. WOAIF confirms that 'Valyrians alone in the world had the power to tame and subdue dragons' (something we already knew from the books and all short stories, but many still need that confirmation). So yeah if Tyrion rides a dragon, the reason will be that his father is actually Aerys. (IMHO, of course)

Yes, I meant Targaryen :p

[Maia]

About Tommen's hair - it is not true anymore. There are no fewer than 3 quotes in AFFC, and possibly more, that his hair is now exactly the same Lannister gold as that of his siblings. It darkened with age, as white blond normally does. I have found them recently for another thread and I am not lookng it up again. Anybody with an electronic copy can look it up - just search for "golden curls".

[Elessar]

I still don't buy a quick one sentence description of pale "leathern" wings to be Drogon who we know is an all black dragon. There is enough mystery and strangeness in that chapter at the Sorrows and with the Stone Men that it could easily be a product of his imagination, the environment, or both. Wasn't that area quite affected by Dragons in the past?

Saying Drogon flew thousands of miles just to do a quick flyover and leave doesn't make any sense at all.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I still don't buy a quick one sentence description of pale "leathern" wings to be Drogon who we know is an all black dragon. There is enough mystery and strangeness in that chapter at the Sorrows and with the Stone Men that it could easily be a product of his imagination, the environment, or both. Wasn't that area quite affected by Dragons in the past?

Saying Drogon flew thousands of miles just to do a quick flyover and leave doesn't make any sense at all.

Well I agree that area is strange. But I dont see what else it could be flying over Tyrion. And the Dragon wings are the only things in all 5 novels to previously be described as leather, leathery or leathern. And yes Drogon is all black, but his wings are still thin and translucent, probably wouldn't appear as solid black from below.

[Elessar]

One thing we can agree, I think, is that chapter raises more questions than many in the book. Did time turn backwards? What the hell was the deal with that?

I doubt there'll ever be an answer given.

[complexphoenix]

Well, Cregan Stark did come south basically for plunder, not particularly honorable.

By the way, I could not help but laugh at Cregan's role in the Dance of Dragons. :lol:

I don't think your notion of honor is the same as that of the Starks.

Ned, Cregan, and the Starks of old seem, to my eye, to be under the notion that being honorable chiefly means keeping your word and refraining from treachery and deceit. As long as you won your spoils in honest battle, there's nothing dishonorable about taking them. And indeed, all the Stark victories described in the section on the history of the North were honest victories in open battle or single combat. You never, ever see any courtly intrigue or backstabbing of people who thought the Starks were their friends.

Also, Robb took plenty of plunder from the Westerlands and no one in the book called his honor into question over that, as I recall - not even the Lannisters. In Westeros, taking plunder in war is normal.

[Dofs]

I don't think your notion of honor is the same as that of the Starks.

Ned, Cregan, and the Starks of old seem, to my eye, to be under the notion that being honorable chiefly means keeping your word and refraining from treachery and deceit. As long as you won your spoils in honest battle, there's nothing dishonorable about taking them. And indeed, all the Stark victories described in the section on the history of the North were honest victories in open battle or single combat. You never, ever see any courtly intrigue or backstabbing of people who thought the Starks were their friends.

Also, Robb took plenty of plunder from the Westerlands and no one in the book called his honor into question over that, as I recall - not even the Lannisters. In Westeros, taking plunder in war is normal.

Eh, Ned and Robb came to war for a reason of honor, Cregan went to war for plunder. I do not think that Ned and Robb would do the same thing as Cregan did. I agree about honor in the battle, but that's hardly Stark thing. Jaime, for example, has a lot of this battle honor as well.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Eh, Ned and Robb came to war for a reason of honor, Cregan went to war for plunder. I do not think that Ned and Robb would do the same thing as Cregan did. I agree about honor in the battle, but that's hardly Stark thing. Jaime, for example, has a lot of this battle honor as well.

The text lists plunder as one of the reasons Cregan's army came to war, not why Cregan himself went to war. Plunder isn't given as the only reason either. Adventure, glory and sparing their familes mouths to feed during the harsh Northern winter are also given as reasons. Many of those things (aside from the harsh winters which are a thing of their own in the North) are true for any army.

Cregan had reached an agreement with Jacaerys Velaryon to side with the Blacks, long before the war was over, and was fully expecting the war to still be going on when his army marched south.

[Lord Damian]

Eh, Ned and Robb came to war for a reason of honor, Cregan went to war for plunder. I do not think that Ned and Robb would do the same thing as Cregan did. I agree about honor in the battle, but that's hardly Stark thing. Jaime, for example, has a lot of this battle honor as well.

Cregan sent many men and lost them and their commander in Roddy the Ruin through treachery by Aegon II side. Cregan and his host wanted blood and if they plundered from Aegon II supporters, so be it, they deserved it.

[Universal Sword Donor]

The text lists plunder as one of the reasons Cregan's army came to war, not why Cregan himself went to war. Plunder isn't given as the only reason either. Adventure, glory and sparing their familes mouths to feed during the harsh Northern winter are also given as reasons. Many of those things (aside from the harsh winters which are a thing of their own in the North) are true for any army.

Cregan had reached an agreement with Jacaerys Velaryon to side with the Blacks, long before the war was over, and was fully expecting the war to still be going on when his army marched south.

And as part of that agreement, as any agreement in Westeros or medieval Europe would require, Cregan is going to get something out of it, most likely plunder or marriage prospects. He's not going down there out of the good of his heart.

[bent branch]

I think there is 1 of 2 possible explanations to this. First is that Tyrion imagined the leather wings because he was constantly thinking about them already and was in a place he pictures as having been destroyed by dragons. 2nd is that its something else entirely and not a dragon, such as a wyvern or another creature.

I still don't buy a quick one sentence description of pale "leathern" wings to be Drogon who we know is an all black dragon. There is enough mystery and strangeness in that chapter at the Sorrows and with the Stone Men that it could easily be a product of his imagination, the environment, or both. Wasn't that area quite affected by Dragons in the past?

Saying Drogon flew thousands of miles just to do a quick flyover and leave doesn't make any sense at all.

I always took the pale leathern wings to be a ghostly echo from that area's tragic past.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well I agree that area is strange. But I dont see what else it could be flying over Tyrion. And the Dragon wings are the only things in all 5 novels to previously be described as leather, leathery or leathern. And yes Drogon is all black, but his wings are still thin and translucent, probably wouldn't appear as solid black from below.

I can't check the quote, as my phone is acting out right now, but didn't you mention that Tyrion was thinking about dragons when the sighting occured?

Perhaps it was just the fog playing tricks on the mind here? Because Tyrion was thinking about dragons, it seemed as if the random animal he saw flying in the distance had leathery wings.

In any case, it wouldn't make sense if it was Drogon. Not only was the sighting hundreds of miles from Meereen, it was even further away from the lair Drogon had made for himself in the Dothraki Sea. And why would Drogon go look for a new rider? He is already bound to Dany.

Also, I can't recall it ever having been stated that dragons are attracted to those with Targaryen blood. Their own rider? Sure, it seems that way, with Drogon flying to Dany in he Dothraki Sea (and even that did not happen easily). But a random other person with Targaryen blood, whilst the dragon in question is already bound to another? Highly unlikely. We see what happens when a dragon bound to one Targaryen-blooded person comes into contact with another.. Joff died for it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I can't check the quote, as my phone is acting out right now, but didn't you mention that Tyrion was thinking about dragons when the sighting occured?

Perhaps it was just the fog playing tricks on the mind here? Because Tyrion was thinking about dragons, it seemed as if the random animal he saw flying in the distance had leathery wings.

In any case, it wouldn't make sense if it was Drogon. Not only was the sighting hundreds of miles from Meereen, it was even further away from the lair Drogon had made for himself in the Dothraki Sea. And why would Drogon go look for a new rider? He is already bound to Dany.

Also, I can't recall it ever having been stated that dragons are attracted to those with Targaryen blood. Their own rider? Sure, it seems that way, with Drogon flying to Dany in he Dothraki Sea (and even that did not happen easily). But a random other person with Targaryen blood, whilst the dragon in question is already bound to another? Highly unlikely. We see what happens when a dragon bound to one Targaryen-blooded person comes into contact with another.. Joff died for it.

mmmm you make solid points here. I always took it as it was Drogon, because he was known to fly and hunt much further than the other 2 dragons. We definitely don't know how far away he went from Meereen. And yes Tyrion was thinking of dragons at that exact moment.

But I concede that it could be some ghost from the past. Perhaps an echo of a long dead dragon. BUT, it is still no coincidence that Tyrion is the one who saw it IMO.

[_Oberyn_]

Sixteen pages everyone is ignoring the obvious one, maybe because it was obvious for many here a long time ago though a lot of us wanted to belive otherwise.

Imo it does net get more casual than page 264:

On Lys: "The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the small folk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac and pale blue eyes of the lords of old."

Gutted as I am by this, I think it seals the whole Young Griff debate imo. Not a Targ, not a Backfyre. Pls someone tell me im wrong :(.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Sixteen pages everyone is ignoring the obvious one, maybe because it was obvious for many here a long time ago though a lot of us wanted to belive otherwise.

Imo it does net get more casual than page 264:

On Lys: "The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the small folk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac and pale blue eyes of the lords of old."

Gutted as I am by this, I think it seals the whole Young Griff debate imo. Not a Targ, not a Backfyre. Pls someone tell me im wrong :(.

How are we ignoring it?

Ashara Dayne had violet eyes (but dark hair).

My gut feeling is that (f)Aegon is a Blackfyre. No proof to that though...yet...

[complexphoenix]

Sixteen pages everyone is ignoring the obvious one, maybe because it was obvious for many here a long time ago though a lot of us wanted to belive otherwise.

Imo it does net get more casual than page 264:

On Lys: "The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the small folk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac and pale blue eyes of the lords of old."

Gutted as I am by this, I think it seals the whole Young Griff debate imo. Not a Targ, not a Backfyre. Pls someone tell me im wrong :(.

This thread is about theories that have been smashed to pieces - as in, conclusively disproven - by TWOIAF. This passage doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding the heritage of Young Griff. It establishes that it is possible that YG is some random boy from Lys, but it doesn't come anywhere close to proving that he is.

He could be the real Aegon, he could be a Blackfyre, he could be a random Lyseni, he could be Illyrio's son by Serra. Personally I think he's Illyrio's son because that theory has the most explanatory power IMO, but that's a subject for another thread.

[UnmaskedLurker]

This thread is about theories that have been smashed to pieces - as in, conclusively disproven - by TWOIAF. This passage doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding the heritage of Young Griff. It establishes that it is possible that YG is some random boy from Lys, but it doesn't come anywhere close to proving that he is.

He could be the real Aegon, he could be a Blackfyre, he could be a random Lyseni, he could be Illyrio's son by Serra. Personally I think he's Illyrio's son because that theory has the most explanatory power IMO, but that's a subject for another thread.

Well, not that I ever pushed such a theory, but for anyone that said he had to be a Targ descendant because of his looks, the world book smashes that theory to pieces.

[complexphoenix]

Well, not that I ever pushed such a theory, but for anyone that said he had to be a Targ descendant because of his looks, the world book smashes that theory to pieces.

It smashes that particular argument to pieces, not the theory that he's a Targ descendant. But we already knew, even before TWOIAF was released, that the Targaryens were not the only people left in the world with Valyrian looks after the Doom.