R+L = J v.109

[sj4iy]

So... this one? (Condensed to be a bit more of a position statement):

Is that your argument?

My argument is the same as it's been from the start. Jorah's tourney story is a direct parallel to Rhaegar's story and is letting us, the reader, know that Rhaegar was motivated by love for Lyanna Stark to win the tourney and name her the Queen of Love and Beauty. There was no fix...Rhaegar simply bested those who were better than him, which Jorah did in the same situation.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

My argument is the same as it's been from the start. Jorah's tourney story is a direct parallel to Rhaegar's story and is letting us, the reader, know that Rhaegar was motivated by love for Lyanna Stark to win the tourney and name her the Queen of Love and Beauty. There was no fix...Rhaegar simply bested those who were better than him, which Jorah did in the same situation.

Okay, that makes sense. I can accept that. But it really doesn't answer the question I raised... which was: Why does Barristan Selmy feel that he could have put on a more honorable, more chivalrous performance in the last tilt at the Harrenhal tourney? Or, as he phrases it...why does he feel that he could have "been a better knight?"

(I'm assuming we can agree that Selmy understands knighthood in terms of honor and chivalry, given his own statements to that effect.)

[sj4iy]

Okay, that makes sense. I can accept that. But it really doesn't answer the question I raised... which was: Why does Barristan Selmy feel that he could have put on a more honorable, more chivalrous performance in the last tilt at the Harrenhal tourney? Or, as he phrases it...why does he feel that he could have "been a better knight?"

(I'm assuming we can agree that Selmy understands knighthood in terms of honor and chivalry, given his own statements to that effect.)

Because he was defeated by someone who doesn't normally win tourneys. I imagine that would be hard for any knight of great renown like Selmy to know that it was down to just him and Rhaegar and that everything that happened afterwards (including the death of his beloved Ashara) might have turned out differently if only he had unseated Rhaegar when he had the chance. That doesn't mean that there WAS anything Selmy could have done...he simply wishes he had been better than he was that day because of the repercussions afterwards.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Let's also not forget that even if Selmy in this case means if he had been a better knight, using better to refer to chivalric qualities of knighthood, rather than his martial prowess as a knight, this is a world where the two concepts are often linked. Look at the institution of knighthood itself, which links chivalric codes with skill at arms. There's also the whole idea of a trial by combat, where you or a champion winning a fight is taken as an indication that you are innocent of a crime. Barristan may very well understand not winning the joust as a reflection of his character as a knight, due to the gods not finding fit to favor him over Rhaegar

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Because he was defeated by someone who doesn't normally win tourneys. I imagine that would be hard for any knight of great renown like Selmy to know that it was down to just him and Rhaegar and that everything that happened afterwards (including the death of his beloved Ashara) might have turned out differently if only he had unseated Rhaegar when he had the chance. That doesn't mean that there WAS anything Selmy could have done...he simply wishes he had been better than he was that day because of the repercussions afterwards.

So, Selmy fails to recognize that it wasn't his fault? He gave it his very best, honest effort, there really just wasn't anything he could have done differently... and yet he seems to think there was room for improvement, and "of all his failures, none haunted [him] so much as" this one?

I don't know. He seems to be taking that one tilt more personally than you'd expect if that were the case. I mean, he's the guy who told Dany:

I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm." (3.08)

He seems to have a reasonable perspective here. Seems like he oughta be able to let his Harrenhal performance go, if he was the best knight he knew how to be be on that day... Unless maybe he wasn't. As he himself seems to imply...

I can agree to disagree on this. I just don't think your gloss accounts for Selmy's continued second-guessing of himself and that tilt.

[sj4iy]

So, Selmy fails to recognize that it wasn't his fault? He gave it his very best, honest effort, there really just wasn't anything he could have done differently... and yet he seems to think there was room for improvement, and "of all his failures, none haunted [him] so much as" this one?

If you failed at something, even if you gave it your best shot, and the repercussions of failing meant that the dominoes started falling, a war was started and the woman you loved ended up dead, don't you think you would regret having failed? People regret things they can't change all the time. "Trying your best" doesn't mean much out in the real world when the stakes are high.

I don't know. He seems to be taking that one tilt more personally than you'd expect if that were the case.

He's taking it personally because the woman he loved is dead.

I mean, he's the guy who told Dany:

I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm." (3.08)

He seems to have a reasonable perspective here. Seems like he oughta be able to let his Harrenhal performance go, if he was the best knight he knew how to be be on that day... Unless maybe he wasn't. As he himself seems to imply...

...he says it himself "A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next". Selmy says that anyone can win at any time.

I can agree to disagree on this. I just don't think your gloss accounts for Selmy's continued second-guessing of himself and that tilt.

I need actual proof in the text that there was a fix. I can't believe something happened without actual evidence of such. Second-guessing is a natural part of life and I don't see that as any indication or evidence that Selmy purposely threw a tournament he desperately wanted to win.

[MtnLion]

Which dialogue is that?

His inner dialog with himself, immediately preceeding your quote:

If I had been a better knight... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty.

This line is prompted by the fact that he wished that he could have awarded the crown to Ashara, instead of Rhaegar awarding it to Lyanna. To be a knight, in Selmy's words is skill at arms in addition to honor and chivalry. It cannot be cooked down to honor and chivalry by itself, because they would not stay a knight for long without skill.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...I need actual proof in the text that there was a fix. I can't believe something happened without actual evidence of such...

Well, that's a funny thing to say given the subject of this series of threads. "Actual proof" is not something easily come by in these books - yet we theorize on. But as you say - we won't all agree on what constitutes "evidence." :)

Anyway. You've helped me to understand your position on Selmy. Thanks for that. I see it as very reasonable.

One question/idea I didn't get to - and I won't push it hard as "a theory," but I'd be curious to hear your opinion - is this one:

What if Selmy had been ordered to lose the tilt? Would he have followed such an order? Would he consider that to have been honorable, or less than chivalrous? How might he feel, looking back on the tilt, if that was the way things went down?

.

[sj4iy]

Well, that's a funny thing to say given the subject of this series of threads. "Actual proof" is not something easily come by in these books - yet we theorize on. But as you say - we won't all agree on what constitutes "evidence." :)

Anyway. You've helped me to understand your position on Selmy. Thanks for that. I see it as very reasonable.

Thanks :) It's always nice to have a civilized conversation about something.

One question/idea I didn't get to - and I won't push it hard as "a theory," but I'd be curious to hear your opinion - is this one:

What if Selmy had been ordered to lose the tilt? Would he have followed such an order? Would he consider that to have been honorable, or less than chivalrous? How might he feel, looking back on the tilt, if that was the way things went down?

I think if Selmy had been ordered to take a dive, he would not have considered that honorable at all. He would very likely think upon it with disgust and disgrace...I would think it would haunt him much, much more than it haunts him now. But the biggest clue we would have is that he would think very little of Rhaegar had he ordered him to lose. We know that Selmy esteems Rhaegar highly, and praises him. I don't think he would do so if Rhaegar had ordered Selmy to let him win. Plus we know something of Rhaegar's personality through the POVs of others...he doesn't seem at all the type of person who would resort to cheating in order to win.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Thanks :) It's always nice to have a civilized conversation about something.

I think if Selmy had been ordered to take a dive, he would not have considered that honorable at all. He would very likely think upon it with disgust and disgrace...I would think it would haunt him much, much more than it haunts him now. But the biggest clue we would have is that he would think very little of Rhaegar had he ordered him to lose. We know that Selmy esteems Rhaegar highly, and praises him. I don't think he would do so if Rhaegar had ordered Selmy to let him win. Plus we know something of Rhaegar's personality through the POVs of others...he doesn't seem at all the type of person who would resort to cheating in order to win.

Fair enough. But Rhaegar was not the only one there capable of giving such a command. What if the order had come from Aerys...?

[sj4iy]

Fair enough. But Rhaegar was not the only one there capable of giving such a command. What if the order had come from Aerys...?

...why?

[BearQueen87]

...why?

I'm with you on this one. Why would Aerys want Selmy to throw the tourney.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oh, who knows? Why did Aerys do anything?

(I don't have a reason, really. Just curious to see if anyone else might have an idea.)

[Alia of the knife]

ikr? At first I was "yeah, he's creepy... like every other clown", but then, the mask... oh, the mask was off....!!!

(btw, the other day, a clown tried to follow me home. :P )

I got into a shoving match with a Ronald McDonald clown when I was sixteen because he wouldn't leave me alone.

[Alia of the knife]

Well doesn't Selmy remember Rhaegar not winning all the tourneys?

Then like Jorah, all of a sudden, he couldn't be stopped at the Harrenhal Tourney.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well doesn't Selmy remember Rhaegar not winning all the tourneys?

Then like Jorah, all of a sudden, he couldn't be stopped at the Harrenhal Tourney.

Yeah, which comes across as suspicious to me. Especially given the way Selmy "hesitates" before mentioning the Harrenhal tourney at all in answer to Dany's question.

[JonSnow4President]

I can agree to disagree on this. I just don't think your gloss accounts for Selmy's continued second-guessing of himself and that tilt.

Just to add to this. I work in the same city where Enron was headquartered, and I work in public accounting. Many of the people that work for my company worked for Arthur Anderson (the "independent" auditor that was supposed to be the watchdog on Enron. While it is nowhere near the level of a war, there are people who weren't in any way involved with the Enron engagement who still feel somewhat guilty for not ever noticing anything that cost thousands of jobs, despite the fact they were completely innocent.

So now put that completely innocent person where he has a direct action he could have done (winning the joust) to be able to prevent thousands of deaths in a war that spawned from the direct results of his losing. And this innocent person takes honor very seriously. Of course he'll feel guilty.

Even if something fishy did happen (which I would consider a remotely small chance at this point, with only one very easily explained line to go off of), wouldn't it be simpler to explain it that Barristan held back so that he might not hurt the crown prince?

[Alia of the knife]

But, Selmy also says Rhaegar never loved the martial arts.

And Jorah was never much of a knight, (I don't think Knighthood was a practice in the north), but yet both men won for a woman.

I tend to think if Rhaegar just wanted to honor Lyanna and be done with it, that would be the time he might try to rig it.

What he did rings of the same drive and determination that motivated Jorah, especially as it caused such upset.

Edit: Dayne was better than Selmy and Rhaegars best friend. If Dayne could have beaten him, I think he would have.

Rhaegar isnt Joffrey, so I don't think he'd want men afraid to compete with him, and he has been beaten.

[BearQueen87]

But, Selmy also says Rhaegar never loved the martial arts.

And Jorah was never much of a knight, (I don't think Knighthood was a practice in the north), but yet both men won for a woman.

I tend to think if Rhaegar just wanted to honor Lyanna and be done with it, that would be the time he might try to rig it.

What he did rings of the same drive and determination that motivated Jorah, especially as it caused such upset

Just to add to the bold: Jorah says that he fights as well as any man (and he does, we see him take down people) but he was never a tourney knight. And even afterward the "magic" was gone and he never distinguished himself after the tourney with Lynesse.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well, clearly the Harrenhal tournament can be explained without recourse to anybody rigging anything, though I don't subscribe to the "Jorah parallel" myself. My point in all this was merely to highlight the fact that Selmy's reflection, in its context, is suggestive that something else might be going on - and I stand by that, though I understand that many won't agree. I'm not putting forward a theory, or claiming the comment proves anything at all (not even close)... but as written it certainly raises the question in my mind - and I find it an interesting idea, worth considering. Obviously there's much yet to be revealed with respect to that tourney, and allegations have already been floated that all was not what it appeared to be. Time will tell, I suppose...