R+L = J v.109

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, the obvious answer is that he threw the tilt. Right?

Why does it matter if Selmy threw his tilt (or simply "lost") if all the prior tilts leading up the tilt between Rhaegar and Selmy were not thrown?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

OTT but SCARIEST CLOWN IN THE HISTORY OF CLOWNS. (and I hate ALL clowns but oh dear heaven...Twisty....)

ikr? At first I was "yeah, he's creepy... like every other clown", but then, the mask... oh, the mask was off....!!!

(btw, the other day, a clown tried to follow me home. :P )

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...by losing.

No. I would say the 'obvious' answer is that he simply lost.

So, in your opinion, losing is evidence of dishonor? Therefore, Rhaegar was clearly a dishonorable man - because he lost (got himself killed, even) at the Trident.

I find that a curious position.

[Ygrain]

Is there any chance that the GoHH and Bran could "talk" or share dreams together?

Now that's an enticing thought that I haven't seen discussed before.

Now, a little crackpot time. When Rhaegar says "When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken.", it is usually taken as a confirmation that Varys' whispers were correct and Rhaegar did intend to use HH as a pretext to gather a Great Council and depose Aerys. However... what if the sole purpose of the tourney was to meet Lyanna? :cool4: Perhaps not namely Lyanna as in, Lyanna Stark, the daughter of Rickard Stark, but a northern girl,under the sign of the old gods? What if GoHH made a prophecy about the greatest castle in Westeros, a she-wolf bearing a crown of blue roses and a great hope that would come under the sign of the old gods, and Rhaegar came to believe that it would be important to orchestrate such an event, with politics being just a pretext? What if Rhaegar intended to make the changes only after he made away with Lyanna - if he had made a secret deal with Rickard, he would have had the Starks, the Tullys via Brandon's marriage, the Arryns via Ned (who together with Jon Arryn would pacify Robert) and even the Martells is Elia was on board. What if it was this alliance that needed to be broken, and hence Brandon received a false message pretimely and rushed to KL, unaware that the kidnapping was staged.

[Ygrain]

So, in your opinion, losing is evidence of dishonor? Therefore, Rhaegar was clearly a dishonorable man - because he lost (got himself killed, even) at the Trident.

I find that a curious position.

Not of dishonor. Of falling short of an ideal knight.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Why does it matter if Selmy threw his tilt (or simply "lost") if all the prior tilts leading up the tilt between Rhaegar and Selmy were not thrown?

It doesn't matter either way, to me. I was only pointing out that Selmy's recollection suggests that the final tilt may have been a foregone conclusion. I really don't think that's debatable. I haven't taken a position on whether any other matches might have been predetermined - though if one tilt is rigged, it probably is worth wondering about the others.

[sj4iy]

So, in your opinion, losing is evidence of dishonor? Therefore, Rhaegar was clearly a dishonorable man - because he lost (got himself killed, even) at the Trident.

I find that a curious position.

He never uses the word 'dishonor'. Never. Not once. He saids "if I had been a better knight" and "out of all his failures". There's no 'dishonor' anywhere.

It's a curious position to me to bring up that he felt dishonored when he never says it even once.

[Ygrain]

It doesn't matter either way, to me. I was only pointing out that Selmy's recollection suggests that the final tilt may have been a foregone conclusion. I really don't think that's debatable. I haven't taken a position on whether any other matches might have been predetermined - though if one tilt is rigged, it probably is worth wondering about the others.

And others are pointing out that nothing suggests cheating.

[BearQueen87]

Now that's an enticing thought that I haven't seen discussed before.

Now, a little crackpot time. When Rhaegar says "When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken.", it is usually taken as a confirmation that Varys' whispers were correct and Rhaegar did intend to use HH as a pretext to gather a Great Council and depose Aerys. However... what if the sole purpose of the tourney was to meet Lyanna? :cool4: Perhaps not namely Lyanna as in, Lyanna Stark, the daughter of Rickard Stark, but a northern girl,under the sign of the old gods? What if GoHH made a prophecy about the greatest castle in Westeros, a she-wolf bearing a crown of blue roses and a great hope that would come under the sign of the old gods, and Rhaegar came to believe that it would be important to orchestrate such an event, with politics being just a pretext? What if Rhaegar intended to make the changes only after he made away with Lyanna - if he had made a secret deal with Rickard, he would have had the Starks, the Tullys via Brandon's marriage, the Arryns via Ned (who together with Jon Arryn would pacify Robert) and even the Martells is Elia was on board. What if it was this alliance that needed to be broken, and hence Brandon received a false message pretimely and rushed to KL, unaware that the kidnapping was staged.

I know you called it crackpot, but I rather like that. And it help to lessen the "Rhaegar was selfish and irresponsible" critique people throw around.

I'm relooking at the GoHH speech to Arya and while, yes, it does speak to Arya and her future when taking your theory into account there is some Arya/Lyanna parallels, and we know how replete those are in the text--Arya and Lyanna are compared together quite a bit.

I see you. I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death ... You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone

What if the GoHH saw another wolf child. And the direct mention of Summerhall while still speaking to Arya....

Food for thought. Must chew on it more.

ETA: Lyanna isn't just a wolf child, either. She's got the wolf blood that leads to her death.....hmmmmm

[UnmaskedLurker]

So, in your opinion, losing is evidence of dishonor? Therefore, Rhaegar was clearly a dishonorable man - because he lost (got himself killed, even) at the Trident.

I find that a curious position.

Does Selmy say he acted dishonorably? Or just wishes he had been a "better" knight? One can be a better knight by simply being better in competition--not have a higher honor.

[MtnLion]

It doesn't matter either way, to me. I was only pointing out that Selmy's recollection suggests that the final tilt may have been a foregone conclusion. I really don't think that's debatable. I haven't taken a position on whether any other matches might have been predetermined - though if one tilt is rigged, it probably is worth wondering about the others.

On the contrary, the dialog indicates that Selmy wished he had won. not that he had intentionally lost.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Does Selmy say he acted dishonorably? Or just wishes he had been a "better" knight? One can be a better knight by simply being better in competition--not have a higher honor.

He says: "If I had been a better knight... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty." (5.67)

And I agree that, elsewhere, being "a better knight" might mean simply that one was more skilled in the use of knightly weapons (the joust, for instance). But in this case, from his own POV, Selmy has just finished defining "what it mean to be a knight" in terms of "chivalry" and "honor." That's what he tells his trainees, as well as the reader. So, five paragraphs later, when he reflects that he should have "been a better knight" on a particular occasion - what are the terms by which he evaluates himself as a knight?

sj4iy says that Selmy is evaluating his knightly quality on the basis of his tourney win-loss record. Ygrain says the same. And both insist that Selmy's loss to Rhaegar can only be attributed to his insufficient skill at knightly arms.

I will concede that it's possible that's all Selmy meant by "If I had been a better knight..." But particularly given the context of the thought, I find that answer strikingly inadequate, because it does not account for Selmy's preceding definition of knighthood. To be a knight means more than simply to excel, or win, in the joust. It means to be judged on the basis of honor and chivalry. If Selmy were merely concerned with his "insufficient" jousting, he might have been more specific... If I had shifted my seat at the last second... or, If I had aimed true with my lance... But that's not his line of thought. Instead, he recalls that moment in terms of his identity as a knight - and wonders how things might have been different if he had been "a better knight." In light of his own definition five paragraphs earlier, it seems to me that the attentive reader must consider the judgment in terms of qualities peculiar to knighthood - because that's the word Selmy uses. (Not all jousters were knights, even in that tourney. Brandon Stark, for instance, would not have been "a better knight" if he had unseated Rhaegar... he was no knight at all!)

In my view, Selmy's reflection is highly suggestive that all was not as it seemed when it came to Rhaegar's victory at the Harrenhal tourney...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On the contrary, the dialog indicates that Selmy wished he had won. not that he had intentionally lost.

Which dialogue is that?

[sj4iy]

sj4iy says that Selmy is evaluating his knightly quality on the basis of his tourney win-loss record. Ygrain says the same. And both insist that Selmy's loss to Rhaegar can only be attributed to his insufficient skill at knightly arms.

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that Selmy's loss is attributed to the fact that Rhaegar was so motivated by love that he was untouchable that day...just like Jorah was the day he won his tourney. That's the parallel that I see being made in the story.

[Ygrain]

sj4iy says that Selmy is evaluating his knightly quality on the basis of his tourney win-loss record. Ygrain says the same. And both insist that Selmy's loss to Rhaegar can only be attributed to his insufficient skill at knightly arms.

That's a remarkable misinterpretation.

[sj4iy]

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

This is from Ned's POV. Even Ned thinks back on it in awe of Rhaegar...even after what happened after that.

Now read what Jorah says:

"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man."

Jorah is admitting that the only reason that he was able to win that tourney is that he was driven by love.

Now let's see what Selmy says about Rhaegar:

“Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.”

So we know that Rhaegar was a skilled fighter, but not a tourney fighter- much like Jorah. And when Selmy tells Dany about the one tourney Rhaegar DID win, Dany tells us something very important about it:

“Your Grace.” The old man hesitated. “He won the greatest tourney of them all.”

“Which was that?” Dany demanded.

“The tourney Lord Whent staged at Harrenhal beside the Gods Eye, in the year of the false spring. A notable event. Besides the jousting, there was a melee in the old style fought between seven teams of knights, as well as archery and axe-throwing, a horse race, a tournament of singers, a mummer show, and many feasts and frolics. Lord Whent was as open handed as he was rich. The lavish purses he proclaimed drew hundreds of challengers. Even your royal father came to Harrenhal, when he had not left the Red Keep for long years. The greatest lords and mightiest champions of the Seven Kingdoms rode in that tourney, and the Prince of Dragonstone bested them all.”

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?”

“It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate.”

To me, the parallel is clearly there. Jorah's story is meant to tip us off that Rhaegar was motivated by love to win the Tourney at Harrenhal. Neither normally won tourneys; both were good fighters, but not at the level of the best knights; and both won a tourney they probably would have never won normally. If Jorah was driven by love, then so was Rhaegar.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that Selmy's loss is attributed to the fact that Rhaegar was so motivated by love that he was untouchable that day...just like Jorah was the day he won his tourney. That's the parallel that I see being made in the story.

I asked: "In what way did Ser Barristan fall short of his honorable, chivalrous ideal, when he failed to unhorse Prince Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney?" ... and you replied: "...by losing." If I misunderstood what you meant, I apologize - and I'd be happy to revise my previous post.

Would it be more correct to say that, in your view, Selmy evaluates his knightly quality on the basis of Rhaegar's love?

[sj4iy]

I asked: "In what way did Ser Barristan fall short of his honorable, chivalrous ideal, when he failed to unhorse Prince Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney?" ... and you replied: "...by losing." If I misunderstood what you meant, I apologize - and I'd be happy to revise my previous post.

Would it be more correct to say that, in your view, Selmy evaluates his knightly quality on the basis of Rhaegar's love?

My post above states my argument.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

My post above states my argument.

So... this one? (Condensed to be a bit more of a position statement):

...Ned thinks back on [the Harrenhal tourney] in awe of Rhaegar...even after what happened after that.

Jorah... admit that the only reason that he was able to win [the Lannisport] tourney is that he was driven by love.

...Selmy says... that Rhaegar was a skilled fighter, but not a tourney fighter- much like Jorah. And when Selmy tells Dany about the one tourney Rhaegar DID win, Dany tells us [that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Stark QoLaB at that same tourney].

Is that your argument?

[Ellfoy]

ikr? At first I was "yeah, he's creepy... like every other clown", but then, the mask... oh, the mask was off....!!!

(btw, the other day, a clown tried to follow me home. :P )

Please, stop talking about scary clowns, it gives me the creep. In France, we are having some troubles in a few cities (around where I lives) because some assholes decided to disguised themselves as terrifying clowns and purchases people with fake weapons.

So, on topic. It seems that season 5 will start with a flashback, can we hope that it wil be the TOJ scene or I am too delusional ant it's only gonna be

10 years-old Cersei and the Valonquar prophecy one

?