R+L = J v.109

[BearQueen87]

I've always had difficulty with this. It just seems a tad cliché for GRRM to have the dying prince's last words be for his lady love locked in the Tower of Joy. Especially since, you know, that dying prince was probably gay.

Curious to know where you're getting that from.

Also, where's JonCon when you need her??

[sj4iy]

Curious to know where you're getting that from.

Also, where's JonCon when you need her??

Lol, I thought that myself.

But even she would admit it's unrequited love on Jon Con's part- just because a gay person is attracted to someone doesn't make them gay. Especially when there is clear evidence of that person loving a woman.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Especially when there is clear evidence of that person living a woman.

I assume you mean "loving" a woman, as "living a woman" would be a completely different thing. :leer:

[sj4iy]

I assume you mean "loving" a woman, as "living a woman" would be a completely different thing. :leer:

Yup, I fixed it, thanks. I hate typos, but they are unavoidable on mobile.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Aegon’s mouth twisted in fury. “I will not come to my aunt a beggar. I will come to her a
kinsman, with an army.
“A small army.” There, that’s made him good and angry. The dwarf could not help but think of
Joffrey. I have a gift for angering princes.

Stop it,” Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. “The Night’s Watch is a noble calling!”

Tyrion laughed. “You’re too smart to believe that. The Night’s Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I’ve seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it’s scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you’re not allowed to breed anyway, I don’t suppose that matters.”
“Stop it!” the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.
Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty. He took a step forward, intending to give the boy a reassuring pat on the shoulder or mutter some word of apology.
He never saw the wolf, where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. “Help me,” he said to the boy, reaching up a hand.
And suddenly the wolf was between them. He did not growl. The damned thing never made a sound. He only looked at him with those bright red eyes, and showed him his teeth, and that was more than enough. Tyrion sagged back to the ground with a grunt. “Don’t help me, then. I’ll sit right here until you leave.”

Jon Snow stroked Ghost’s thick white fur, smiling now. “Ask me nicely.”
Tyrion Lannister felt the anger coiling inside him, and crushed it out with a will. It was not the first time in his life he had been humiliated, and it would not be the last. Perhaps he even deserved this. “I should be very grateful for your kind assistance, Jon,” he said mildly.

Jon: Monster?
Val: His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. And keep him away from the red woman. For his mothers sake, and mine. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.
Jon: Ashes and cinders.
Val: Kings and dragons.

Just in case,i am writing an essay about Hector-Rhaegar,Astyanax-Jon parells.

[Ygrain]

Wasn't Astyanax torn from his mother's arms and his head smashed against the wall, while Andromache was taken for a concubine?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wasn't Astyanax torn from his mother's arms and his head smashed against the wall, while Andromache was taken for a concubine?

Yep. Some other legends say he survived by switching or hiding.

[Ygrain]

Yep. Some other legends say he survived by switching or hiding.

That's still Aegon, not Jon, or am I missing something?

[BearQueen87]

That's still Aegon, not Jon, or am I missing something?

Agreed. The Asynanax-Aegon parallel is stronger than one to Jon.

The whole thing is like a Greek tragedy though the parallels aren't perfect.

Rhaegar v Robert = Hector v Achilles...but at the same time Rhaegar and Lyanna could read like Paris and Helen.

Rhaegal Targaryen I'm interested to read your essay about it when you are done!

[Ygrain]

The whole thing is like a Greek tragedy though the parallels aren't perfect.

Rhaegar v Robert = Hector v Achilles...but at the same time Rhaegar and Lyanna could read like Paris and Helen.

It would be rather poor writing if the parallels were perfect.

[BearQueen87]

It would be rather poor writing if the parallels were perfect.

Oh, I agree. It's what makes it all so interesting.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's still Aegon, not Jon, or am I missing something?

No, I meant Aegon. I suppose, as pointed above, that GRRM could have taken the same myth to apply to different characters as well.

[MtnLion]

I do like that quote about Tyrion having a gift for angering princes, just before the quote that shows him angering Jon . . .

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Wasn't Astyanax torn from his mother's arms and his head smashed against the wall, while Andromache was taken for a concubine?

There are many versions of the myth.According to my favourite one,Astyanax was hidden in his father's tomb by Andromache, Aeneas his uncle later retrieved him and took him to Italy,he was given his father's armour and weapons when he was old enough and managed to conquer some parts of Sicilly,he had sons and grandsons who ruled as kings and always remained allies of R ome.Andromache was taken as a concubine by Neoptolemus,[Achille's son] and never saw her son again.Unfortunately every greek myth ends up like a tragedy''sigh''.Homer states that Astyanax was killed by Neoptolemus,Menelaus or Odysseus who threw him from the walls of Troy and yet he has doubts about that later in his life.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Agreed. The Asynanax-Aegon parallel is stronger than one to Jon.

The whole thing is like a Greek tragedy though the parallels aren't perfect.

Rhaegar v Robert = Hector v Achilles...but at the same time Rhaegar and Lyanna could read like Paris and Helen.

Rhaegal Targaryen I'm interested to read your essay about it when you are done!

Yep,Rhaegar kinda reminds me of Hector but he also parells Paris[Alexandros] a lot while Robert parells Achilles but mainly Menelaus.The parells are not perfect but i will do my best,as for the Astyanax-Aegon connection,it depends on the myth you are going to use since there are a lot of versions but i am gonne use the myth which i listed above.

[Alia of the knife]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar was attempting to warg Lyanna? :huh:

Thats awkward :)

Hope all is well, and looking forward to the next radio Westeros!

[Frey family reunion]

Curious to know where you're getting that from.

Also, where's JonCon when you need her??

Certainly nothing concrete, more like taking a peek behind a splintered grey door. Jon Con's jealousy of Rhaegar's relationship with Arthur, the royal household's worry that Rhaegar was another Baelor the blessed, loveless marriage with Ellia, Ned's observation that Rhaegar would have never visited a brothel, and of course his constant harp playing.

Just joking about the harp playing, but I would note that the harp, in both Greek and Irish mythology, has been an instrument used to lure people someplace against their will. The Sirens in particular were known to lure travelers to their doom with their singing and their harp playing. Which may be a very subtle clue that Lyanna may have been magically compelled to go to Rhaegar.

I would also note that Ned's observation that Lyanna's "wolf's blood" was the cause of her early death. While I'm sure Ned was speaking of her impulsiveness, I wonder if GRRM may be giving us another subtle hint, connecting Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship with the relationship of the Stark children and their wolves.

Of course it would be much easier just to go with the common assumption that Rhaegar and Lyanna were like Romeo and Juliet and their not so secret love affair doomed them but gave birth to King Jon who will one day find out about his his hidden legacy. It's all very elegant, romantic and Arthurian. And I do admit, the black and white door is quite grand looking and the scene within is very inviting and comfortably familiar.

[BearQueen87]

Certainly nothing concrete, more like taking a peek behind a splintered grey door. Jon Con's jealousy of Rhaegar's relationship with Arthur, the royal household's worry that Rhaegar was another Baelor the blessed, loveless marriage with Ellia, Ned's observation that Rhaegar would have never visited a brothel, and of course his constant harp playing.

Just joking about the harp playing, but I would note that the harp, in both Greek and Irish mythology, has been an instrument used to lure people someplace against their will. The Sirens in particular were known to lure travelers to their doom with their singing and their harp playing. Which may be a very subtle clue that Lyanna may have been magically compelled to go to Rhaegar.

I would also note that Ned's observation that Lyanna's "wolf's blood" was the cause of her early death. While I'm sure Ned was speaking of her impulsiveness, I wonder if GRRM may be giving us another subtle hint, connecting Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship with the relationship of the Stark children and their wolves.

Of course it would be much easier just to go with the common assumption that Rhaegar and Lyanna were like Romeo and Juliet and their not so secret love affair doomed them but gave birth to King Jon who will one day find out about his his hidden legacy. It's all very elegant, romantic and Arthurian. And I do admit, the black and white door is quite grand looking and the scene within is very inviting and comfortably familiar.

It's an interesting idea. But given that we know Rhaegar loved Lyanna at the time of his death and even before given his determination to win the HH tourney to crown her--probably a combination of admiration for her role as the KotLT and some burgeoning lovey feelings--I don't think we can jump straight to gay. If Rhaegar had any homosexual or even bisexual inclinations, I think someone in Westeros would have known or at least suspected.

[Alia of the knife]

It's an interesting idea. But given that we know Rhaegar loved Lyanna at the time of his death and even before given his determination to win the HH tourney to crown her--probably a combination of admiration for her role as the KotLT and some burgeoning lovey feelings--I don't think we can jump straight to gay. If Rhaegar had any homosexual or even bisexual inclinations, I think someone in Westeros would have known or at least suspected.

GRRM confirmed that he did not return Joncons feelings.

And you are correct, everyone who is, it is known.

Oberyn

Daemon Sand

Renly

Loras

Laenor from tPatQ

The painted mercenary

Etc....

BUT, the notion of enchantment is interesting and very Atrthurian in relation to Uthur and Egraine.

[J. Stargaryen]

Quick question--if these seven people represent the seven rubies--what about Rhaegar himself? Why wouldn't Rhaegar's "blood" include himself?

My interpretation is that the seven rubies represent those of Rhaegars blood (his immediate family). No need for Rhaegar to be included as well.

Fwiw, I think this is totally sensible. I recommend adding it to the RRT thread.