R+L = J v.109

[corbon]

Because there are so many threads on this subject and they're all meaty, I'll ask:

Has it been discussed whether or not Melisandre knows R+L=J and, (since I assume the answer is yes), what's the general consensus on the subject?

(I'm basing this on her shadowbaby comments made to Jon in ADWD.)

I haven't heard of such. Seems rather fanciful to me. Shadowbabies don't require the blood of kings or anything, since she made a similar offer to Davos.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Did she make an offer to Davos? That settles it, then.

I've been trying to pay more attention to her time at the wall ever since I noticed she says some pretty ominous things about the power there and what she might do... can't recall what it was, but when I read it this time she almost seemed to be suggesting she'd take the wall down, (which makes no sense, I know), so I've just been reading into things as I reread this time. Thought this was interesting, but if it doesn't require kings blood then there's not much to it.

Thanks!

[corbon]

It's when she sort of steals Ghost and then tells Jon there's power in him and he should use it, that she'll teach him and when he asks how she says something about mating and what power could come from their coupling... then discusses shadows and what a big one he casts.

I would guess the power reference would be from his warging ability.

If she knew he was a Targaryen I think she'd be a lot more agressively after his blood, and a bit less blind about his AA potential.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Oh, power is definitely his warging. The shadowbaby was the only link to R+L=J and if that's not linked to king's blood then there's nothing more to it.

[RumHam]

I haven't heard of such. Seems rather fanciful to me. Shadowbabies don't require the blood of kings or anything, since she made a similar offer to Davos.

I'm not sure that Shadowbabies do require the blood of kings, but my impression of that interaction was that she was fucking with Davos. She knew he would never agree and was trying to make him uncomfortable.

From a story standpoint, they really should require the blood of kings. Otherwise shadowbinders should have taken over the world long ago.

[corbon]

I'm not sure that Shadowbabies do require the blood of kings, but my impression of that interaction was that she was fucking with Davos. She knew he would never agree and was trying to make him uncomfortable.

While I agree she was deliberately making him uncomfortable, I don't think she would have made teh offer if it wouldn;t have worked anyway.

From a story standpoint, they really should require the blood of kings. Otherwise shadowbinders should have taken over the world long ago.

I doubt it, given how much it seems to take away from the 'father'. Stannis was a strong, vital, man in his prime, but she thinks a third shadowbaby would kill him already.

And that assumes that they even want to take over the world.

[Ser Not Appearing]

I'd agree that shadow-binders seem a tad over-powerful if no king's blood limitation exists. If a shadowbaby can come from any man then there's little wisdom in using/weakening Stannis who she sees as extremely important. Find a random guy and seduce him.

Maybe a man's intentions to guide the actions of the shadowbaby which makes controlling them more difficult and that limits over-use... or maybe she was japing with Davos and there's something meaningful her offering Jon the chance afterall.

[Ygrain]

I think that the process may be draining on the shadowbinder, as well, so they probably can't do it very often. Also, what Davos, Stannis and Jon have in common is determination and strong will, which is what I think makes them good candidates.

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

I recently started a reread and this passage struck me as odd. Maybe it's been brought up before but I've yet to see it in the forums (I'm a noob so sorry if it is here already). It's from Dany I in AGOT.

"Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sacking of Kings Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes."

It doesn't directly say that Elia was the one that he died for, just "for the woman he loved".

Also, it says in this chapter that Viserys is 8 during the battle of the Trident and the flight to Dragonstone and yet Dany recalls him telling her this story. Ser Willem Darry was their protector on Dragonstone and for a while in the Free Cities so I can only assume that he recounted most of the stories back to Viserys, hence knowing that Rhaegar's real love was not Elia but another.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I recently started a reread and this passage struck me as odd. Maybe it's been brought up before but I've yet to see it in the forums (I'm a noob so sorry if it is here already). It's from Dany I in AGOT.

"Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sacking of Kings Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes."

It doesn't directly say that Elia was the one that he died for, just "for the woman he loved".

Also, it says in this chapter that Viserys is 8 during the battle of the Trident and the flight to Dragonstone and yet Dany recalls him telling her this story. Ser Willem Darry was their protector on Dragonstone and for a while in the Free Cities so I can only assume that he recounted most of the stories back to Viserys, hence knowing that Rhaegar's real love was not Elia but another.

Welcome! :)

Well, (Dowager) Queen Rhaella was also there, with Viserys, for nine months. And she had previously tried to shelter Viserys as much as she could from Aerys' madness, so I suppose they spend a lot of time together. And little children ask their parents lots of questions, so Rhaella would have been the one these questions were asked to.

Rhaella could have told stories, and ser Willem. But because Viserys was a young child when they would have been telling him, one should wonder how much they told him truthfully, and how much they "romanticised" it for him, because they believed that the truth was not for a childs ears..

And part could have been Viserys filling in the gaps in his mind himself.

But yeah, sure. Had Rhaella or Darry known that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, I see no reason why they wouldn't have told Viserys. And Viserys later Dany.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Dany doesn't hold a grudge against Lyanna (wanted Daario to come and steal her like Rhaegar supposedly stole Lyanna), but only against Eddard (and hopefully not the rest of house Stark.)

[Half Of Tormunds Member]

Snip.

Thanks for the welcome.

I just found it interesting that even Dany recalls it as "for the woman he loved". It leaves it quite vague and open. Especially since Elia is named by name only a sentence or two later.

Anyway, I've been sold on RLJ a long time ago but I just wanted to bring up this passage as possible more proof. (Albeit very vague ;) )

[Ghost's Shadow]

Don't know if it was said, but GRRM confirmed that Rhaegar perished with the name 'Lyanna' as his final word.

[Frey family reunion]

Don't know if it was said, but GRRM confirmed that Rhaegar perished with the name 'Lyanna' as his final word.

I've always had difficulty with this. It just seems a tad cliché for GRRM to have the dying prince's last words be for his lady love locked in the Tower of Joy. Especially since, you know, that dying prince was probably gay.

So if Rhaegar did indeed utter Lyanna's name before he died and for sake of argument let's say he was never truly in love with her but merely needed her for her bloodline why say her name? Then a sudden and very mischievous thought just hit me. Whose name did Robb utter at the moment of his death? And here's a hint, it wasn't Jeyne.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Are you suggesting that Rhaegar was attempting to warg Lyanna? :huh:

Both Robb and Jon Snow uttered the names of their dire wolves at the moment of death, I assume because those were the living creatures with whom they felt the strongest bond. Cat thinks of Ned and her children and Pate thinks of Rosey. Thinking she is about to die, Brienne thinks of Pod. Cressen thinks of Stannis a moment before he focuses on Mel, and Kevan thinks of his wife just before he notices the children and their knives, while on the other hand Varamyr thinks of Thistle and Will of Waymar Royce. Strong emotion seems to be the link here, rather than supernatural ability.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I've always had difficulty with this. It just seems a tad cliché for GRRM to have the dying prince's last words be for his lady love locked in the Tower of Joy. Especially since, you know, that dying prince was probably gay.

So if Rhaegar did indeed utter Lyanna's name before he died and for sake of argument let's say he was never truly in love with her but merely needed her for her bloodline why say her name? Then a sudden and very mischievous thought just hit me. Whose name did Robb utter at the moment of his death? And here's a hint, it wasn't Jeyne.

You know, that would be amazing. I hadn't considered it from that angle before... but you're right. And the pattern would extend to Jon, at the end of ADWD.

The idea that's always nagged me, somewhat comically, is that when Rhaegar approached Robert at the ford, he "just wanted to talk." You know - like he rode over trying to flag Baratheon down, and Robert was just too blinded by rage to do anything but cream him with that warhammer:

Rhaegar (waving frantically): "Hey, coz! Hey, Robert, over here! Look, this is all just a big misunderstanding... you've got it all wrong. I'm not the guy who ran off with your girl. And to prove it, I wanted to tell you where you can find—"

(Robert, screaming battle cries, WHACKS the prince with his spiked warhammer...)

Rhaegar: (dying) "—Ly-anna..."

[Mithras]

Don't know if it was said, but GRRM confirmed that Rhaegar perished with the name 'Lyanna' as his final word.

If that statement is true, then there is a mistake in HotU visions.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . .

Dany saw Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in a previous vision. Here she sees a prince without noting that this should be the previous prince she'd seen and she also does not understand what the prince whispered as he is dying, yet she is sure that it was a woman's name. That seems absurd, especially considering that Dany knew Lyanna by name.

[sj4iy]

Especially since, you know, that dying prince was probably gay.

...and whatever gave you that idea?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

If that statement is true, then there is a mistake in HotU visions.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . .

Dany saw Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon in a previous vision. Here she sees a prince without noting that this should be the previous prince she'd seen and she also does not understand what the prince whispered as he is dying, yet she is sure that it was a woman's name. That seems absurd, especially considering that Dany knew Lyanna by name.

It doesn't say that Dany doesn't recognize the woman's name. Her PoV simply doesn't reveal it to us. It's a stylistic choice by the author.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I've always had difficulty with this. It just seems a tad cliché for GRRM to have the dying prince's last words be for his lady love locked in the Tower of Joy. Especially since, you know, that dying prince was probably gay.

Rhaegar is a fictional character created by GRRM. In your personal version of ASOIAF, perhaps Rhaegar is really gay. But the Rhaegar created by GRRM is not gay (not that I would care if Rhaegar were gay, he just isn't). The evidence is overwhelming that a central part of the R+L=J story is that the relationship between R&L was a true romance--that they loved each other deeply by the time they ran off and decided to have a child together. GRRM is not writing about a character who is really in love with Arthur Dayne, for example, but impregnates Lyanna out of duty to create the third head of the dragon. You might prefer if GRRM were writing that story, but the evidence is clear to me that the story actually being written is one in which R&L are madly in love with each other.