R+L = J v.109

[BearQueen87]

Ah, but that goes back to my original post, I am just giving an alternate explanation as to why Rhaegar may have uttered her name with his dying breath.

Playing with your idea then, what's Rhaegar's logic behind all this? And I'm still really questioning the idea that Rhaegar could warg a human being, or really that Rhaegar could warg anything.

[Alia of the knife]

But isn't the crowning at Harrenhall a tad suspicious as well? If he falls in love with her at Harrenhall because of her role in the KotLT, how the heck does he procure the very rare Winter Roses in time to crown her with them? At the Harrenhall gift shop?

The Harrenhall tournament was a set up to put Rhaegar in contact with Lyanna. One of his conspirators, Oswell, has his father put on the tournament to help Rhaegar come into contact with Lyanna. His boyfriend, err best friend, Arthur, lets Rhaegar win so he can crown her with the wreath of Winter Roses he conveniently has on hand.

GRRM confirmed it was Lyannas name on Rhaegars lips.

“To celebrate his victory, Robert ordained that a tourney should be held outside Lannisport. It was there I saw Lynesse, a maid half my age. She had come up from Oldtown with her father to see her brothers joust. I could not take my eyes off her. In a fit of madness, I begged her favor to wear in the tourney, never dreaming she would grant my request, yet she did.

“I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse’s favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion’s laurel. I crowned Lynesse queen of love and beauty, and that very night went to her father and asked for her hand. I was drunk, as much on glory as on wine. By rights I should have gotten a contemptuous refusal, but Lord Leyton accepted my offer. We were married there in Lannisport, and for a fortnight I was the happiest man in the wide world." - Jorahs Tourney

As I've always said, as soon as I read this, given Martins penchant for telling "stories-within-stories," I knew this was about Rhaegar and Lyanna. And while the circumstances aren't exact, Martin is emphasizing the movitations that drove Rhaegar and Jorahs behavior.

We see another glimpse of Rhaegar and Lyanna through the prism of others, i.e., Dani's memory of Rhaegar taking "his northern girl."

Notice the energy in the emphasis on the word "his" in both Dani's account and Selmys, "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."

Very possessive, and likely not enough that Rhaegar was willing to share her even with the man who would be her husband

There is a rythm to Martins use of words and inferences.

As for the rose, Martin is the king of all irony, so I don't think its outside the possibility that the crown was commissioned from the Greenhouses of Winterfell itself, that Lyanna would end up wearing it, only brings destiny full circle as it could have ended up on any maids head.

While I do think that Rhaegar had some political motivations at Harrenhal, they ended when he crowned Lyanna, (perhaps in a fit of madness as per Jorah),

Rhaegar is not gay, because there isn't a reason that adds to the storyline to make him so, in fact, it would only complicate it.

Which brings the reasons for Martin writing Rhaegar and Lyanna. He is a romantic, he has said so, but he tends to write more realistically about the notion. He writes about those moments in life when good people fail and fall, and bad people have their moments of redemption.

As he said, if we are honest, all of us have done things we are ashamed of.

Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other, but perhaps they were also one anothers "shame" as well, going back to Jons own ponderings about his "father" and he "shame" he felt in his mothers bed,(thinking of Ned of course).

There is no reason to believe that Arthur was gay, but completely dedicated to the KG. If Arthur was gay, no reason to hide that fact if there is no reason to hide the fact that Prince Lewyn had a paramour.

Selmy was also jealous of the relationship between Rhaegar and Arthur, but we all know that the only thing Selmy loved was his own honor.

[Frey family reunion]

I suppose my point is we really can't assume anything at this point. This is a land where consciousness can be transferred from one being to another. Which along with some of the other magic we've been given a peek at makes any assumption a tad perilous.

Rhaegar's birth on the day of the Summerhall tragedy may end up being significant. I always found the following passage a little eyebrow raising:

Viserys had spoken of Rhaegar's birth only once. Perhaps the tale saddened him too much. "It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"

"Yes, and yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved."

I wonder if the Summerhall ghosts (i.e. consciousness) lived on after their death in Rhaegar. And if Rhaegar found a way to transfer his own consciousness before his death. Remember, the dragon has three "heads". Perhaps that phrase is more literal than we assume.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Rhaegar died at the Trident with Lyanna's name on his lips, described as "dying for the woman he loved." And GRRM did confirm somewhere (link anyone?) that it was Lyanna's name he said as he fell.

I can't find the link, but we have this from Barristan:

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

[BearQueen87]

I suppose my point is we really can't assume anything at this point. This is a land where consciousness can be transferred from one being to another. Which along with some of the other magic we've been given a peek at makes any assumption a tad perilous.

Rhaegar's birth on the day of the Summerhall tragedy may end up being significant. I always found the following passage a little eyebrow raising:

I wonder if the Summerhall ghosts (i.e. consciousness) lived on after their death in Rhaegar. And if Rhaegar found a way to transfer his own consciousness before his death. Remember, the dragon has three "heads". Perhaps that phrase is more literal than we assume.

Well I tend to believe that Rhaegar's birth was VERY significant--in that he's the dragon that was reborn into the world, instead of a literal flying lizard one. If dragons and Others play off each other in terms of coming in and out of the world, I think Rhaegar's birth might be the event that caused the WW's to awaken.

As for your final point I think "ghosts" live on in the same our loved ones live on, we carry them with us. To quote My Bear : "'There are ghosts everywhere", Ser Jorah said softly. "We carry them with us wherever we go"

Have there ever been Targs that could warg? It seems to be a very Old God ability and even though we don't know Rhaegar's full family tree (come one World Book!!!) I don't think the Targs were mixing with the Starks/northern families.

[Frey family reunion]

Well I tend to believe that Rhaegar's birth was VERY significant--in that he's the dragon that was reborn into the world, instead of a literal flying lizard one. If dragons and Others play off each other in terms of coming in and out of the world, I think Rhaegar's birth might be the event that caused the WW's to awaken.

As for your final point I think "ghosts" live on in the same our loved ones live on, we carry them with us. To quote My Bear : "'There are ghosts everywhere", Ser Jorah said softly. "We carry them with us wherever we go"

Have there ever been Targs that could warg? It seems to be a very Old God ability and even though we don't know Rhaegar's full family tree (come one World Book!!!) I don't think the Targs were mixing with the Starks/northern families.

Was Bloodraven not a Targ that could warg? And his mother came from a "Southern family". The Old Blood is strongest up North but that doesn't mean it disappeared in the south. Two of the Kingsguard present at the Tower of Joy are from ancient First Men families.

[Alia of the knife]

Just curious can you tell me what Rhaegar's ancestry is? Perhaps the World Book will answer this in ten days, but who was Rhaegar's grandmother, and who was Rhaegar's great grandmother? As far as I know we are missing three of Rhaegar's maternal ancestors in the tree. His grandfather's wife, his great grandfather's wife, and his great great grandfather's wife.

ETA: you left out Bloodraven. Bloodraven apparently entered into Bran's consciousness to "tutor" him into opening his third eye. Not technically controlling him, but certainly "grooming" him.

I don't rule out the possibility that there may have been a Stark wife in the Targaryen ancestory, as they've actually married more outside their family than within. I also think its possible that it could be vice versa, and there could have been a Targaryen princess as a Lady of Winterfell.

But, in terms of warging, if I'm not mistaken, the Starks have practised incest as well, maybe not a sibling, but close, but certainly married within northern families who may have had warging abilities, (i.e., like the suggestive Mormonts), as purity of bloodline seems to be an ingredient for such "magic" for both families.

However, I don't think its overnight, or guarenteed with one pairing, but the strength of the ability may grow with more than one pairing. :dunno:

For Rhaegar to have that ability, its likely to have needed several episodes with such families. As BR would have been an uncle, and didn't have children, (that we know of), Rhaegar would not have any ability from that quarter.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Just a small correction in between :)

A warg is a skinchanger who is able to enter the mind of a wolf or dog. As Lyanna wasn't an actual wolf, but a human, she couldn't have been warged ;) her mind could theoretically have been entered by a skinchanger.

Though there is zero evidence that Rhaegar was ever a skinchanger or warg :)

[BearQueen87]

Was Bloodraven not a Targ that could warg? And his mother came from a "Southern family". The Old Blood is strongest up North but that doesn't mean it disappeared in the south. Two of the Kingsguard present at the Tower of Joy are from ancient First Men families.

Ah, Bloodraven. Sure. Though, how southron are the Blackwoods anyway? Isn't their sigil a weirwood tree? Seems pretty tied to to the Old Gods and that their blood might be more "old." So for Rhaegar, I'd imagine the blood would have to be equally strong and even though GRRM is keeping Rhaegar's heritage tightly under his cap, wouldn't there be some evidence in text to suggest that the Targs had married into a high Old-way house?

But can you point to any evidence--outside of your hypothesis about Lyanna--that Rhaegar could skinchange?

[Consigliere]

Ah, Bloodraven. Sure. Though, how southron are the Blackwoods anyway? Isn't their sigil a weirwood tree?

The Blackwoods were Kings of the Wolfswood.

[BearQueen87]

I shall resist clicking on that spoiler! (I'm avoiding all World book spoilers and I'm assuming that is what it is...)

To return to Frey Family Reunion and that conversation:

Two thoughts: 1) What would be the purpose of skinchanging Lyanna and then raping her? If it was just to rape her, then it flies in the face of your "Rhaegar was gay" theory. Was it to get TPTWP, dragon-head number three? And did he really need to skinchange her for that to happen? There is evidence that Lyanna loved him as well.

2) Does this really seem in line with Rhaegar's personality? Ned, when comparing Rhaegar to Robert, comes down on Rhaegar's side in terms of honor. And Ned surely knows more than anyone.

[sj4iy]

...I don't see how anyone could take this theorizing seriously at all.

We know that Blood of the First Men is required to be a warg. Rhaegar doesn't have it; therefore, any suggestions that he could warg are unfounded.

We know that only the most powerful wargs have the ability to warg a human...and even then, it's tricky and not guaranteed to work.

Rhaegar doesn't need to mentally control Lyanna to rape her when he is a warrior himself and has two of the best KG in history by his side. That's just ludicrous.

We have plenty of proof to show that Lyanna and Rhaegar had affection for one another, and Robert is the only one that ever truly believes that Lyanna was raped.

There's absolutely no proof whatsoever that Rhaegar was gay. None. A gay man loved Rhaegar, but there is nothing that shows that Rhaegar ever returned his affections, and we even have the author telling us he didn't. Rhaegar wasn't gay.

[Taenqyrhae]

...I don't see how anyone could take this theorizing seriously at all.

We know that Blood of the First Men is required to be a warg. Rhaegar doesn't have it; therefore, any suggestions that he could warg are unfounded.

We know that only the most powerful wargs have the ability to warg a human...and even then, it's tricky and not guaranteed to work.

Rhaegar doesn't need to mentally control Lyanna to rape her when he is a warrior himself and has two of the best KG in history by his side. That's just ludicrous.

We have plenty of proof to show that Lyanna and Rhaegar had affection for one another, and Robert is the only one that ever truly believes that Lyanna was raped.

There's absolutely no proof whatsoever that Rhaegar was gay. None. A gay man loved Rhaegar, but there is nothing that shows that Rhaegar ever returned his affections, and we even have the author telling us he didn't. Rhaegar wasn't gay.

Are we sure Rhaegar had no blood of the First Men? I'm not an expert on Targaryan genealogies but it seems likely that they intermarried with non-Andal Westerosi at some point during their rule.

[sj4iy]

Are we sure Rhaegar had no blood of the First Men? I'm not an expert on Targaryan genealogies but it seems likely that they intermarried with non-Andal Westerosi at some point during their rule.

Intermarrying doesn't mean they have blood of the first men. There are plenty of Westerosi who don't have it. But that's not the point. The point is that if the text wanted us to think that Rhaegar could warg, it would have given us some hints or clues. This idea that Rhaegar would warg Lyanna in order to rape her is so ridiculous that I don't see why it even deserves our consideration.

[BearQueen87]

...I don't see how anyone could take this theorizing seriously at all.

We know that Blood of the First Men is required to be a warg. Rhaegar doesn't have it; therefore, any suggestions that he could warg are unfounded.

I agree with you but I think one of the points Frey Family Reunion is making is that we are missing a fairly recent family member: who did Jaehaerys II marry?? We know he married for love, but who was that?

[Ghost's Shadow]

I don't think warging/skinchanging jumps a few generations like that.

Not to mention having the potential to have the power doesn't mean you accomplish it during your life, at least not as consciously as you would have if you had a direwolf by your side to wake it up, and people who have the ability as well and can show you how to use it.

Unless there's some very loyal and very easy pets around Rhaegar and whomever you wish to fantasise this ability to skinchange onto, there is nothing there.

Being born a skinchanger doesn't mean you develop it.

[Ser Yolo Swaggins]

Enters thread to get a catch up, reads arguments on whether Rhaegar was gay and a warging rapist, leaves thread

[Alia of the knife]

I think the other consideration, (within the context of this theory), is that as the Valaryians went from peaceful sheep herders to dragon lords, creating these bonds, it didn't likely happen with one shot or overnight.

I suspect its the same with the power of warging/skin changing.

(Native Americans call it "skin walking" and these beings are generally powerful shamans and evil).

What do we know of the origins of the power?

[sj4iy]

I agree with you but I think one of the points Frey Family Reunion is making is that we are missing a fairly recent family member: who did Jaehaerys II marry?? We know he married for love, but who was that?

I don't think that really matters, though...my point is that the text doesn't give us any evidence to support it. It's another case of finding a gap in the information in the text and inserting unsupported 'evidence' that supports their theory. Theories have to be supported by actual evidence in the text...they can't be proven by lack of evidence to the contrary. I could say that Ned became a masked superhero by night and ran around saving commoners from thieves, and there's technically nothing to contradict me...but that doesn't mean it's not a ludicrous theory.

[Kingmonkey]

Ah, Bloodraven. Sure. Though, how southron are the Blackwoods anyway? Isn't their sigil a weirwood tree? Seems pretty tied to to the Old Gods and that their blood might be more "old."

In ADWD ch.48 we heard that the Blackwood feud with the Brackens goes back to when they were petty kings during the Age of Heroes 500 or 1000 years before the Andal invasion, so they have pretty solid First Man roots. We also get "House Blackwood kept the old gods, and worshiped as the First Men had in the days before the Andals came to Westeros."