IceFire125 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 As for Lord Rickard, I've wondered in the past about those who were apparently not present -- namely Queen Rhaella, Lord Hoster Tully, and Lord Rickard Stark. The queen and two of the high Lords whose families would lead the rebellion. Hmmm... Are you saying Rhaegar was the decoy? Interesting... ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 And now I really want the World book to read more about HH and maybe where everyone was.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 And now I really want the World book to read more about HH and maybe where everyone was.... My guess... is that many of the usual suspects were actually there. They just haven't figured in the retellings to this point, because so little has been recounted. House Tully, for instance, is almost guaranteed to have had a presence considering the location... and the entire household may have actually been there. I'd be very surprised if Hoster didn't put in an appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Do you think Rhaegar and Rhaella were pulling double duty? Rhaegar took some families at HH while Rhaella took the other two? Well, I do wonder. Of course, Rhaella could have been just enjoying some Aerys-free time, or perhaps sitting the IT since it's not clear exactly when Tywin resigned as Hand (I mean-- did he resign in a huff in advance of the Tourney when he got wind of Aerys' plan for Jaime? or did he stay in KL until the Tourney was over?) At any rate, we don't know exactly what the Queen was up to, and there are these two Lords who aren't mentioned... I'm not sure there would have been an opportunity for her to conspire tbh, Varys being Varys and all. But since all signs point to something going on surrounding the Tourney, my conspiracy brain perks up a bit at that missing information ;) eta: IceFire125, I'm pretty sure that Rhaegar would have been a leader, but I do strongly suspect Rhaella was involved somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 My guess... is that many of the usual suspects were actually there. They just haven't figured in the retellings to this point, because so little has been recounted. House Tully, for instance, is almost guaranteed to have had a presence considering the location... and the entire household may have actually been there. I'd be very surprised if Hoster didn't put in an appearance. And yet we have this in Meera's introduction to the Tourney: The king himself was there, with his son the dragon prince. The White Swords had come, to welcome a new brother to their ranks. The storm lord was on hand, and the rose lord as well. The great lion of the rock had quarreled with the king and stayed away, but many of his bannermen and knights attended all the same. So I wonder, why not mention the wolf lord and the river lord if they were there? The Tully girls are not mentioned in the festivities with the other young people, and there is no mention of say, the Blackfish riding in the Tourney. Like I said, I suspect George had to write it that way for reasons yet to be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I definitely think there is a reason she stayed behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 If we wish really hard, maybe it'll be in the World Book..... LOL. I agree; I don't think there is any in-text evidence to suggest that Rhaegar would skinchange anyone and no evidence that he was gay. I feel like that rather proves my point. Bloodraven's abilities came from his mother, someone who has strong First Men ties even though they are living south-ish.There were obviously still some first men houses south of greywater, including some in Dorne: e.g. the Daynes.As for the World Book, be careful what you wish for, since it seems probable that our author has extended the principle of the fallible narrator into the writing thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 As for the World Book, be careful what you wish for, since it seems probable that our author has extended the principle of the fallible narrator into the writing thereof. Very true, I know. But at this point...i just want something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squab Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I accept GRRM has done a lot of foreshadowing for R+L=J, to the point of it being a joke if it were not true. Vice versa, would the unlikely bastard turning out to be the long lost legitimate heir to a pined for, ancient house imbued with magic, heir to the throne and savior of all spoil the surprise in anyones eyes? He may not be legitimate but I hope R+L=J would have some significance other than just being Jon's parentage, which would then go back to being the usual fantasy theme, wouldn't it? Is he still trying to stay different or do you think he's decided to let Jon's story mimic much of other fantasy sagas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Yeah, which comes across as suspicious to me. Especially given the way Selmy "hesitates" before mentioning the Harrenhal tourney at all in answer to Dany's question.But, Selmy also says Rhaegar never loved the martial arts. Too much is made I think of Rhaegar not loving the martial arts and therefore 'not' being a 'great' knight.I think he was one of the best (Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned ... He did it (compete in the lists) well). Nowhere are we told that he won no other tournaments, just that he won the greatest. We know he rode brilliantly on at least one other occasion. We know on that occasion he broke 12 lances against Ser Arthur Dayne, who was certainly one of the very best around.I think he didn't win many other tournaments because he didn't compete in many other tournaments (he seldom entered the lists), and possibly often when he did compete did so more as a formality than as a real effort (It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him.)I say this not because I think "Rhaegar is awesome", but because Barristan said he was very good (but not really interested) and because he broke 12 lances against Ser Arthur Dayne at a tournament he didn't even win (I suspect Barristan won that one but was being modest to Dany - and I rather suspect that a 12 ride bout would take enough out of both competitors to give fresher, equally skilled, opponents an edge too).You don't break 12 lances against Ser Arthur Dayne unless you are damn good. One or two, or even a winning bout, might be some luck and just enough skill. 12 is more than enough to take luck out of the picture though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I accept GRRM has done a lot of foreshadowing for R+L=J, to the point of it being a joke if it were not true. Vice versa, would the unlikely bastard turning out to be the long lost legitimate heir to a pined for, ancient house imbued with magic, heir to the throne and savior of all spoil the surprise in anyones eyes? He may not be legitimate but I hope R+L=J would have some significance other than just being Jon's parentage, which would then go back to being the usual fantasy theme, wouldn't it? Is he still trying to stay different or do you think he's decided to let Jon's story mimic much of other fantasy sagas?For my own part, yes. I expect Martin has something different in mind. But I will be disappointed in the end, if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon Snow's biological father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The "shady"ness of HH is that Rhaegar was trying to pull together support to depose Aerys. At least dipping his toe in the water. I'm quite sure that this is exactly what GRRM wants you to be thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 For my own part, yes. I expect Martin has something different in mind. But I will be disappointed in the end, if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon Snow's biological father.I don't understand why you would be disappointed with that. Do you not think Martin can make something like that interesting without being terribly cliche? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 The only witness of Rhaegar allegedly trying to remove Aerys is Barristan, as far as I remember, and he admitted himself he wasn't close to Rhaegar. If it's something everybody knows, then Rhaegar sucks at secrecy (and no wonder he got screwed by Varys) or he told the KG to be on his side. Yet, Jaime doesn't seem to remember more than that specific conversation with Rhaegar. Maybe they decided not telling Jaime about it, being young and probably a Tywin's spy. Yet, it's very suspicious that Whent goes to Harrenhall and then, they organised the tourney. Also, when Rhaegar disappeared, he took Whent too. Arthur I can understand, but Whent? That's what it has made me thing that the original idea of removing Aerys didn't come from Rhaegar but Arthur, and it fits GRRM's statement of us eventually realising Arthur wasn't the goody-goody we believe he is. What I believe that happened is that Rhaegar didn't really pay attention to his father's mind state, and even around the time of the Tourney in Harrenhall, he didn't consider the situation to be as severe as it was. Arthur and Whent, and probably the rest of the KG, did though. Maybe something happen later that made Rhaegar open his eyes and realise something had to be done. Here is the first problem: Elia's pregnancy. As Varys ruined their plans, they realised they needed to go and hide. I doubt it's a coincidence that Rhaegar took A and O, and chose a tower in the middle of nowhere and it was definitely not a coincidence either that he left KL after Aegon was born and he was sure Elia was fine. I think that's why he told Jaime that "he should have done something earlier". He couldn't do anything before because he needed first to wait for Elia and his child being born and in relative well health. So, yes. I suppose Rhaegar's original plans were to convince some lords to follow him in the time he was going to take the power, assuring him that things will be the same. Considering Aerys' madness was well known by everybody, he expected they would agree. And the KG was probably on board because they knew Aerys wouldn't be hurt. Then Brandon ruined everything. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think Lyanna is the mother, but Rhaegar may not be the father. I do think Rhaegar is behind the creation of Jon Snow, but not by fathering him directly. I think Rhaegar learned of some kind of dark sorcery related to the mysterious happenings at Summerhall, and I think that's the reason why Dany's baby was deformed (though it being born dead probably was Mirri's doing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think Lyanna is the mother, but Rhaegar may not be the father. I do think Rhaegar is behind the creation of Jon Snow, but not by fathering him directly. I think Rhaegar learned of some kind of dark sorcery related to the mysterious happenings at Summerhall, and I think that's the reason why Dany's baby was deformed (though it being born dead probably was Mirri's doing). You mean that Jon has no father? Is he like Jesus or... Anakin? D: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 For my own part, yes. I expect Martin has something different in mind. But I will be disappointed in the end, if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon Snow's biological father. Video of GRRM at the Edinburgh Book Festival, August 2014. Pay attention to the question more than GRRM's answer, it was missed by many major media outlet, where they report that fans have guess the ending. I don't think the question was about the ending, but a particular theory of someone's parentage. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0250p31 During the Q&A session, start @ 52:33 Lady: There's a lot of fan theories out there about various things that's gonna be happening in your books, one particular is about someone's parentage--I'm not gonna go into *audience giggles*--but do you have a desire to surprise your audience where you hear a particular prevailing fan theory that you might change your mind about things?... in general? Edinburgh Book Festival MC refer to LOST, the show GRRM: I've wrestled with this issue, because I do wanna surprise my readers. I hate predictable fiction as a reader, I don't wanna write predictable fiction. I want to supply and delight my readers and take the story, the direction they didn't see coming... BUT you can't change the plans... I used to read some of these fanboards back in the 90s... I stopped doing that.. because so many readers were reading the books with so much attention and they were throwing some theories, while a lot of the theories were amusing bullshit, but very creative, but some of theories were right... at least one or two readers have correctly put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I planted in the books and... came to the right solution. So what do I do then? Do I change it? and I wrestle with that issue.. and I think changing it would've been a disaster (insert the butler/chamber maid analogy)... Note: remember that GRRM stopped going into forums since the late 90s, 1998 specifically, ACOK just got published and released... fans could not have guessed the ending, but fans did theorized, R+L=J! Because the clues were there and they were planted for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I definitely think there is a reason she stayed behind. With you there. BTW, loved your advert for Tyrell Gardens on Radio Westeros! Glad to see your funny isn't confined to the old fake letters thread :) Been catching up on the episodes, nice work everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think Lyanna is the mother, but Rhaegar may not be the father. I do think Rhaegar is behind the creation of Jon Snow, but not by fathering him directly. I think Rhaegar learned of some kind of dark sorcery related to the mysterious happenings at Summerhall, and I think that's the reason why Dany's baby was deformed (though it being born dead probably was Mirri's doing). But then how do you explain the ways that Jon is like Rhaegar? Everyone seems to accept that Jon is Lyanna's but it's Rhaegar that seems to be the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taenqyrhae Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 You mean that Jon has no father? Is he like Jesus or... Anakin? D: I think he's half dragon...real dragon, not Targaryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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