Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Still, they weren't really close. Rhaegar went to the Master at Arms by his own, after all. I suppose that Rhaella tried to keep Rhaegar away from anything suspicious about Aerys, as he later did with Viserys. Robb and Ned were close, yet Robb was trained by the master at arms of Winterfell.. That Darry trained Rhaegar says nothing about Rhaegar and Aerys being or not being close. Rhaegar was a bookish boy. Perhaps Aerys had accepted that, and decided not to force his son into training with weapons, eventually leading to Rhaegar to seek out the master-at-arms himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The disappearance of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark in The World of Ice and Fire:This needs to be spoilered please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.“That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown…" I think the same thing will happen to Jon. The Great Council will give the crown to him but he will be quite unwilling for the job. The Realm will be bankrupt and devastated, ready to crumble into another civil war. He will find no joy in this duty as promised by Aemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think many people on this board underestimate the extent to which GRRM thought (at that time) that he was being subtle and obscure with clues that now are seen as fairly obvious by many (although there are still some who refuse to believe the clues mean what they mean--particularly about R&L being married and thus Jon being a "prince" and not a "bastard").And then of course, there will also be readers and fans who, after considering the same evidence, still come to a legitimately different conclusion. It's not that they "refuse to believe the clues mean what they mean," but perhaps that they disagree with you about the value of that meaning.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 This needs to be spoilered pleaseHey, that piece was legitimate?!Edit: Did it go away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Hey, that piece was legitimate?!Edit: Did it go away?Yep it was. Mods took it away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Well, I think there are other factors:1. The books have been around for 18 years.2. The internet is now the easiest way to find information.3. The show has increased the popularity of the books, making it much more widely discussed.Basically, something that only a fraction of readers would have picked up about 50 years ago has, because of the internet and the tv show, become widely disseminated knowledge.I agree with all of this and did not mean to suggest otherwise--it is just a separate point from whether the clues were quite as subtle and obscure as GRRM thought they were--but really, as you point out, after years of re-reads and close analysis, even obscure and subtle clues start to seem almost obvious (at least to most--but the holdouts show not to all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.“That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown…" I think the same thing will happen to Jon. The Great Council will give the crown to him but he will be quite unwilling for the job. The Realm will be bankrupt and devastated, ready to crumble into another civil war. He will find no joy in this duty as promised by Aemon. Agreed. I also think Jon will be weighted down by everything and everyone he lost in the War. Hey, that piece was legitimate?!Edit: Did it go away? Glad I woke up late so I didn't see whatever it was! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And then of course, there will also be readers and fans who, after considering the same evidence, still come to a legitimately different conclusion. It's not that they "refuse to believe the clues mean what they mean," but perhaps that they disagree with you about the value of that meaning. Well, the issue you are raising becomes almost a "metaphysical" argument over the meaning of certain words. While I respect everyone's right to their own opinion--and until GRRM writes it down so that it becomes "canon" any conclusion can only be someone's opinion--I genuinely believe that there is no other reasonable interpretation of the clues in the book about Jon's parentage other than R+L=J. If it turns out somehow that I am wrong, I will "bow to your greatness" in not being misled by the clues that seemed so clearly to me to point in that direction. But your skepticism does not affect my level of confidence in the prediction that R+L=J is the only plausible explanation for all of the evidence pointing in that direction. But the point I had been trying to make in the post that you quoted is that those who believe in R+L=J but also believe that any reference to "subtle and obscure" clues cannot be a reference to R+L=J because those clues are neither subtle nor obscure--I merely point them to people who still are not convinced that R+L=J and thus, assuming R+L=J, the clues must be somewhat subtle and obscure because otherwise everyone would agree that R+L=J. I also agree with sj4ij that what might have been more plausibly described that way in 1998 seem less so after all these years of analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Agreed. I also think Jon will be weighted down by everything and everyone he lost in the War. Glad I woke up late so I didn't see whatever it was! And I promise not to tell you what it said. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Glad I woke up late so I didn't see whatever it was!Me too! You're the one I thought of first when I saw it :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 And I promise not to tell you what it said. :P I don't mind knowing, since I'm not buying the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Me too! You're the one I thought of first when I saw it :o :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I don't mind knowing, since I'm not buying the book.I'll PM you before I leave for work. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'll PM you before I leave for work. :) Awesome, thanks :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered. “That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown…" I think the same thing will happen to Jon. The Great Council will give the crown to him but he will be quite unwilling for the job. The Realm will be bankrupt and devastated, ready to crumble into another civil war. He will find no joy in this duty as promised by Aemon. I absolutely agree that the great council will be involved with Jon and the IT, just like Aegon and Aemon. Aegon sent Aemon to the wall after the great council and Jon sent him away from the wall. It's all tied up in a big knot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I absolutely agree that the great council will be involved with Jon and the IT, just like Aegon and Aemon. Aegon sent Aemon to the wall after the great council and Jon sent him away from the wall. It's all tied up in a big knot. I thought it was Aemon's idea himself to go to the Wall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I thought it was Aemon's idea himself to go to the Wall? I thought the council wanted Aemon to rule, aemon declined, so Aegon thought it would be safer for Aemon to leave court so no one would try to use him against Aegon...... or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 :cheers: Just look at the bears......... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Just look at the bears......... :D All black and brown and covered in hair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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