R+L = J v.109

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, I do wonder. Of course, Rhaella could have been just enjoying some Aerys-free time, or perhaps sitting the IT since it's not clear exactly when Tywin resigned as Hand (I mean-- did he resign in a huff in advance of the Tourney when he got wind of Aerys' plan for Jaime? or did he stay in KL until the Tourney was over?) At any rate, we don't know exactly what the Queen was up to, and there are these two Lords who aren't mentioned...

I'm not sure there would have been an opportunity for her to conspire tbh, Varys being Varys and all. But since all signs point to something going on surrounding the Tourney, my conspiracy brain perks up a bit at that missing information ;)

eta: IceFire125, I'm pretty sure that Rhaegar would have been a leader, but I do strongly suspect Rhaella was involved somehow

The quote you provided one post below this one,

The king himself was there, with his son the dragon prince. The White Swords had come, to welcome a new brother to their ranks. The storm lord was on hand, and the rose lord as well. The great lion of the rock had quarreled with the king and stayed away, but many of his bannermen and knights attended all the same.

Would suggest that Tywin was already angry at CR when the Tourney began.. So Rhaella would have spend some time alone at KL, it seems (at least without Tywin).

Varys isn't mentioned to have gone to Harrenhal with Aerys, nor has he been mentioned to have stayed behind, but Varys seems to operate from KL, and with Aerys being suspicious, I guess he would have kept Varys in KL working..? With Varys in KL, Rhaella would not have been in the best position to have visitors, like Hoster Tully, or Rickard Stark.

Rickards absence doesn't have to be so weird.. I mean, Rickard might have been ill, or Lyarra (if she was still alive at this point, which, personally, I doubt). Rickard could easily have left Benjen at Winterfell to have a Stark in Winterfell, and gone to Harrenhal himself, but perhaps there was something that made that impossible for him.. Injured leg, fight between bannermen..

Hosters absence is much stranger, and even more so when we realise that there wasn't any Tully present, as far as we know. The Whents were Minisa's family, and Hosters in-laws.. If he couldn't go, why not send Brynden? I can understand it why he wouldn't have send Cat or Lysa alone (or with LF, can you imagine?), that wouldn't be proper for ladies from the south.. And Edmure might have been too young, though perhaps he had just reached the right age to squire, which would mean that he would have had people there to associate with, of his own age. The absence of House Tully puzzle's me, currently. The only reason I can think of is that House Whent and House Tully had a bit of an argument, because Minisa had recently died in childbirth.. But that doesn't really fit timeline-wise, as Catelyn has stated that she could barely recall her mother, had barely known her mother, which indicates that Minisa died when Catelyn was still reasonably young. And thus not around 281AC, when Catelyn would have been around 17 years old..

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I suppose Rickard sent all of his children for them to live the experience of a tourney (something not very often in the North) and to make connections.

That, or he secretly meet with Hoster Tully.

Rhaella, otoh, was probably like this.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaella, otoh, was probably like this.

:agree:

[Ygrain]

We know that Cat wasn't at HH because she hadn't met Ned before their wedding day (and also had never heard a thing about Ashara before she came to Winterfell).

As for Hoster, we know that he used to be a restless man and travelled a lot, so he may have been away when the news arrived and Cat wouldn't have sent her younger siblings on her own. (How long would it take to organize a tourney, how long before the people arrived? The Starks travelled all the way from the North, so there must have been a considerable delay.) Also, there was no particular need to socialise - Cat had already been betrothed, Lysa was offered to Jaime, Edmure was too young...

[amitbernard]

the importance of being a tag will come about when danny returns to westors seeking revenge against house stark and baratheon. she still see's them as rebels who killed her farther and the reason why she lost draogo. it will then be up to john to stop her using dragons against her. truthfully i can't wait for john to warg with a dragon.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I suppose Rickard sent all of his children for them to live the experience of a tourney (something not very often in the North) and to make connections.

That, or he secretly meet with Hoster Tully.

Rhaella, otoh, was probably like this.

Lol :lol:

One other thing that makes me wonder about conspiracies is Hoster's apparent insight into the situation in King's Landing when Brandon hare footed down there. His reaction has always seemed to me the be that of someone who knew more than he let on.

Anyway, Rhaenys... I agree that Tywin probably left prior to the tourney, which is why I indicated I wasn't sure about Rhaella and secret meetings per se. But... could being The Targaryen in King's Landing maybe give her an opportunity to send a bird or two without Varys' interference? Dunno, but she's written with no small amount of mystery so I'm sure there's more to the story than meets the eye.

Ygrain- thanks for reminding us of logic! Of course Cat wasn't there, it would've been obvious in her POV re: Ned. But the fact is there would have been some logic in allowing her to meet the Starks at that time and also that Lysa's proto betrothal to Jaime had rather recently been undone, leaving her on the market again. I can't say enough that I find their apparent absence more than passing strange.

I'm sure GRRM will have some explanation, but as I said earlier, I do think he had to write it that way for a reason ;)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

We know that Cat wasn't at HH because she hadn't met Ned before their wedding day (and also had never heard a thing about Ashara before she came to Winterfell).

Ah. Yes, good point. So that rules out Cat, for sure. I'd still bet Lord Hoster was there, given that Whent was bannerman to House Tully. But I could be wrong.

[MissMatchedEyes]

Jon is literally promised. "Promise me, Ned." If Lyanna is talking about Jon, and he's truly Rhaegar's son, he is literally a prince promised.

That's exactly how I interpreted the "prince who was promised".

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Video of GRRM at the Edinburgh Book Festival, August 2014.

Pay attention to the question more than GRRM's answer, it was missed by many major media outlet, where they report that fans have guess the ending. I don't think the question was about the ending, but a particular theory of someone's parentage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0250p31

During the Q&A session, start @ 52:33

Lady: There's a lot of fan theories out there about various things that's gonna be happening in your books, one particular is about someone's parentage--I'm not gonna go into *audience giggles*--but do you have a desire to surprise your audience where you hear a particular prevailing fan theory that you might change your mind about things?... in general?

Edinburgh Book Festival MC refer to LOST, the show

GRRM: I've wrestled with this issue, because I do wanna surprise my readers. I hate predictable fiction as a reader, I don't wanna write predictable fiction. I want to supply and delight my readers and take the story, the direction they didn't see coming... BUT you can't change the plans... I used to read some of these fanboards back in the 90s... I stopped doing that.. because so many readers were reading the books with so much attention and they were throwing some theories, while a lot of the theories were amusing bullshit, but very creative, but some of theories were right... at least one or two readers have correctly put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that I planted in the books and... came to the right solution. So what do I do then? Do I change it? and I wrestle with that issue.. and I think changing it would've been a disaster (insert the butler/chamber maid analogy)...

Note: remember that GRRM stopped going into forums since the late 90s, 1998 specifically, ACOK just got published and released... fans could not have guessed the ending, but fans did theorized, R+L=J! Because the clues were there and they were planted for a reason.

Thanks. I've seen that before, but appreciate the refresher. Still not entirely sure what those "extremely subtle and obscure clues" are supposed to be - what do you think?

[Ghost's Shadow]

I'm going to guess this is one of them:

“Kings are a rare sight in the north.”
Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

Subtle, no? :lol:

PS: It's a pity Ned's reaction to that one isn't shown. Did he panic for a bit there?

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Some of them could be like that.

Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes.''

Jon about why he is not allowed to train with Joffrey.

The boy absorbed that all in silence. He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

I am not a wolf, he thought.

I have no sister."

The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."

Jon forced himself to smile back. "It was always my color"

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," IT said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

That's exactly how I interpreted the "prince who was promised".

Glad someone agrees!!! :cheers:

[BearQueen87]

Rhaella, otoh, was probably like this.

HA! Also....your new icon. LOL!!!!!!

[Ellfoy]

HA! Also....your new icon. LOL!!!!!!

Right, I couldn't stop laughing for a whole 5 minutes when I saw JonCon's Red Beard new avatar. But, really, I don't think that Rhaegar would be so rude, I'm sure he would turn down JonCon in a more princely way...

[UnmaskedLurker]

For my own part, yes. I expect Martin has something different in mind. But I will be disappointed in the end, if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon Snow's biological father.

I am curious why you would be disappointed. The evidence is overwhelming that Rhaegar is Jon's father. I assume, given that you are in the R+L=J thread, that you have read all or at least most of this evidence. So you have to accept the overwhelming likelihood that it is going to be written that way. So even with all of that advance warning, you still are not able to adjust your expectations so that it won't be disappointing? Otherwise, you certainly seem to be setting yourself up for disappointment. Unless by disappointment you mean the disappointment I feel when I don't win the lottery. I knew I was not going to win, but I was still hoping for it and was somewhat disappointment when I did not win. Is that what you mean by disappointment? If so, then I get it. Otherwise, I am not sure why you think there is any realistic chance you won't be disappointed.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain- thanks for reminding us of logic! Of course Cat wasn't there, it would've been obvious in her POV re: Ned. But the fact is there would have been some logic in allowing her to meet the Starks at that time and also that Lysa's proto betrothal to Jaime had rather recently been undone, leaving her on the market again. I can't say enough that I find their apparent absence more than passing strange.

I'm sure GRRM will have some explanation, but as I said earlier, I do think he had to write it that way for a reason ;)

If it was generally known that Jaime would be named a KG at HH, Hoster might not want Lysa there as a sort of "spurned" bride.

Writing something for a reason doesn't exclude coming up with a good in-world reason for the character to be absent.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The only witness of Rhaegar allegedly trying to remove Aerys is Barristan, as far as I remember, and he admitted himself he wasn't close to Rhaegar. If it's something everybody knows, then Rhaegar sucks at secrecy (and no wonder he got screwed by Varys) or he told the KG to be on his side. Yet, Jaime doesn't seem to remember more than that specific conversation with Rhaegar. Maybe they decided not telling Jaime about it, being young and probably a Tywin's spy.

Yet, it's very suspicious that Whent goes to Harrenhall and then, they organised the tourney. Also, when Rhaegar disappeared, he took Whent too. Arthur I can understand, but Whent? That's what it has made me thing that the original idea of removing Aerys didn't come from Rhaegar but Arthur, and it fits GRRM's statement of us eventually realising Arthur wasn't the goody-goody we believe he is.

What I believe that happened is that Rhaegar didn't really pay attention to his father's mind state, and even around the time of the Tourney in Harrenhall, he didn't consider the situation to be as severe as it was. Arthur and Whent, and probably the rest of the KG, did though. Maybe something happen later that made Rhaegar open his eyes and realise something had to be done.

Here is the first problem: Elia's pregnancy. As Varys ruined their plans, they realised they needed to go and hide. I doubt it's a coincidence that Rhaegar took A and O, and chose a tower in the middle of nowhere and it was definitely not a coincidence either that he left KL after Aegon was born and he was sure Elia was fine. I think that's why he told Jaime that "he should have done something earlier". He couldn't do anything before because he needed first to wait for Elia and his child being born and in relative well health.

So, yes. I suppose Rhaegar's original plans were to convince some lords to follow him in the time he was going to take the power, assuring him that things will be the same. Considering Aerys' madness was well known by everybody, he expected they would agree. And the KG was probably on board because they knew Aerys wouldn't be hurt.

Then Brandon ruined everything. :/

I was thinking about this some more. Was Aerys so far gone that Rhaegar had lost all regard for him? Like Rhaegar didnt care about keeping it a secret because he was thinking 'who cares if my bat-shit crazy father finds out, he is such a shut in and has lost it, it won't even matter if he finds out." Or something like that maybe? Obviously that line of thought would have been incorrect, as Aerys was still very dangerous, even to his own family.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

For my own part, yes. I expect Martin has something different in mind. But I will be disappointed in the end, if Rhaegar turns out to be Jon Snow's biological father.

I don't understand why you would be disappointed with that. Do you not think Martin can make something like that interesting without being terribly cliche?

I am curious why you would be disappointed. The evidence is overwhelming that Rhaegar is Jon's father. I assume, given that you are in the R+L=J thread, that you have read all or at least most of this evidence. So you have to accept the overwhelming likelihood that it is going to be written that way. So even with all of that advance warning, you still are not able to adjust your expectations so that it won't be disappointing? Otherwise, you certainly seem to be setting yourself up for disappointment. Unless by disappointment you mean the disappointment I feel when I don't win the lottery. I knew I was not going to win, but I was still hoping for it and was somewhat disappointment when I did not win. Is that what you mean by disappointment? If so, then I get it. Otherwise, I am not sure why you think there is any realistic chance you won't be disappointed.

It's not that I doubt Martin's ability. But my impression is that Martin's doing something else with his masterpiece. And in the end, I don't see how the "Rhaegar-as-Lyanna's-babydaddy" scenario serves that larger project. In other words, I don't see it as necessary. I also don't see it as inevitable... and the longer it remains unconfirmed, the less likely it seems.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Anyway, Rhaenys... I agree that Tywin probably left prior to the tourney, which is why I indicated I wasn't sure about Rhaella and secret meetings per se. But... could being The Targaryen in King's Landing maybe give her an opportunity to send a bird or two without Varys' interference? Dunno, but she's written with no small amount of mystery so I'm sure there's more to the story than meets the eye.

Yeah, sending out a bird or so might have been possible. Pycelle might have been a bit lost at that moment, because Tywin had left, and could Rhaella have distracted him, she might have been able to send a letter or so.. without anyone knowing.. And if anyone knew, at least without anyone knowing the contents of the letter.

Though perhaps the safest course of action, if Rhaella indeed was sending out messages, would have been sending out a messenger.

I'm curious to find out more about her.

[sj4iy]

It's not that I doubt Martin's ability. But my impression is that Martin's doing something else with his masterpiece. And in the end, I don't see how the "Rhaegar-as-Lyanna's-babydaddy" scenario serves that larger project. In other words, I don't see it as necessary. I also don't see it as inevitable... and the longer it remains unconfirmed, the less likely it seems.

Eh, I see it as inevitable as it can possibly be. Nothing else makes any sense, and I don't see how Martin could come up with another explanation that fits as well and explains so much as R+L=J that fans haven't already tried. I don't know how Martin will use the information, but it's obviously important for some reason or Martin would have never done it in the first place.

And you have to remember that Martin never intended on his series being so long. He started writing with 3 books in mind, so it makes sense as to why he would start setting it up so early in the series even though he hasn't confirmed it as of book 5.

Also, it seems that he is planning on a book 6 reveal:

And then the other one was, of course, you know, I have certain things that I’m laying clues for that there will be revelations later on. Some people had put together those clues even as early as 1998, adding things together. I said, “What do I do with that? What do I do with that? These people have guessed the secret that I’m gonna reveal in book 6, people have already guessed that here and book 2 is just out.” You really have two choices there: you can ignore it and proceed with your plan, despite the fact that some people know where you’re going; or you can get all panicky and say “OMG, they’ve figured it out, I can’t let that be, I’ll have to change it, I’ll have to go in a different direction.” And I think some writers do that, and I think that’s always a mistake. You know, if you've planned your book that the butler did it, and then you read on the internet that someone has figured out that the butler did it and you suddenly change in midstream and it was the chambermaid who did it, then you screw up the whole book, because you get this foreshadowing early on and you’ve got these little clues you’ve planted and now they’re dead ends, and you have to introduce these other clues and now you’re retconning…it’s a mess.

http://youtu.be/zFAGknnoRio?t=9m30s