R+L = J v.109

[Alia of the knife]

With you there.

BTW, loved your advert for Tyrell Gardens on Radio Westeros! Glad to see your funny isn't confined to the old fake letters thread :)

Been catching up on the episodes, nice work everyone!

Thanks Eira, but "funny," can be tricky sometimes, lol.

Lady G, and Yolkboy are that magical blend of both good humor, and the intellectual.

As I'm sitting in the Dentist chair, George Thoroughgoods song "Bad to the Bone" came on, and I couldn't but help think of Lyannas approaching Howlands tormentors. :)

[UnmaskedLurker]

It's not that I doubt Martin's ability. But my impression is that Martin's doing something else with his masterpiece. And in the end, I don't see how the "Rhaegar-as-Lyanna's-babydaddy" scenario serves that larger project. In other words, I don't see it as necessary. I also don't see it as inevitable... and the longer it remains unconfirmed, the less likely it seems.

I suspect you are going to be very disappointed when Book 6 comes out (I think it is pretty clear that R+L=J will be confirmed in WoW). As to why it is inevitable (beyond all of the extensive clues that would make no sense otherwise), I believe it is inevitable because I believe that Jon is the balance between Ice and Fire necessary to win the Battle for the Dawn. I know many people who accept R+L=J do not agree with that characterization of its significance, but to me, Jon is clearly A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. And no, I am not claiming that Jon is the only meaning for the title or even the main meaning, but he is one of the many meanings, and it simply cannot be a coincidence that he would qualify so cleanly if R+L=J is true. Any other explanation of his parentage fails to make his parentage significant in and of itself. There is something special about the merger of House Stark and House Targaryen in the person of Jon Snow.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

HA! Also....your new icon. LOL!!!!!!

Right, I couldn't stop laughing for a whole 5 minutes when I saw JonCon's Red Beard new avatar. But, really, I don't think that Rhaegar would be so rude, I'm sure he would turn down JonCon in a more princely way...

Don't worry. Jon doesn't remember anything...

I was thinking about this some more. Was Aerys so far gone that Rhaegar had lost all regard for him? Like Rhaegar didnt care about keeping it a secret because he was thinking 'who cares if my bat-shit crazy father finds out, he is such a shut in and has lost it, it won't even matter if he finds out." Or something like that maybe? Obviously that line of thought would have been incorrect, as Aerys was still very dangerous, even to his own family.

I think Rhaegar did love his father very much. The thing is that he fits the type of those who rather deny or ignore a relative with a problem because either they loved them or because they don't really want to face the fact that they need to be the "bad guys" here. For example, having a son or a father being an alcoholic is hard and face a situation like that is something that many would rather ignore.

In Rhaegar's case, doing something didn't involve sending his father to a home: it meant rebellion. Rhaegar could have been killed at the very first attempt, and also his family. Considering Jaime remembers that Rhaegar returned and told Aerys to call Tywin, and Aerys actually sent letters, I suppose that, despite distrusting him, Aerys listened to his son (remember that his plan of setting KL on fire happened AFTER Rhaegar, his heir, died). With Rhaegar dead, then nothing would stop Aerys from going completely crazy on Westeros.

So, that's one of the reasons I believe the whole "kidnapping" of Lyanna was nothing but a facade so people would think he's having some fun with some lady while he was actually trying to gain supporters for his cause. And the love happened later.

[MtnLion]

remember that his plan of setting KL on fire happened AFTER Rhaegar, his heir, died. With Rhaegar dead, then nothing would stop Aerys from going completely crazy on Westeros.

Err, a fortnight before the fall of King's Landing is when Aerys roasted Chelsted for objecting to his plot to burn King's Landing. That event led to Rhaella's unwelcome visitor, that Jaime and Jonothor were witness to. Jonothor died at the Trident with Rhaegar, and though it doesn't directly state it in the text, it seems like Rhaegar was present for Chelsted's roasting, if not that appointment to Hand of Rossart.

[IceFire125]

Thanks. I've seen that before, but appreciate the refresher. Still not entirely sure what those "extremely subtle and obscure clues" are supposed to be - what do you think?

The extremely subtle and obscure clues are all of the R+L=J clues, especially the clues pointing to Jon being a legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus being the true heir to throne. You must put in context that GRRM stopped going to the forums in the late 90s, he knew a few fans have figured it out 'THE mystery' that he's going to reveal in the coming book(s), this was in 1998 when ACOK just got released. It was then that GRRM made the decision that he would not change his original plans (which was part of the original 3 giant books/triology of ASOIAF).

Right now, R+L=J theory is pretty much mainstream for the hardcore readers and fans of the books, this dilutes and saturate the thought that the clues and hints that GRRM have planted were indeed obscure and subtle. Either or, GRRM will not change his original plans, the clues, hints and foreshadowing of Jon's importance.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79816-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/86094-a-king-in-hiding-adding-it-all-up-part-2/

Jon is GRRM's answer to Aragorn (the true heir to the throne) in Tolkien's epic fantasy.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/#entry6288980

GRRM have expressed that he wanted to change Aragorn, that he was not satisfied of the ending, he wants his version of Aragorn (Jon) to be more vague, filled with layers of complexity and the notion of...

"how will he rule after he's on the throne?"

"what will he do to all the orcs that was left behind?"

"will he accept them as part of his subject, enslave them, punish/kill them, or exile them?"

"will he impose taxes on his subjects through out the kingdom? how will he enforce it?"

etc..

You can tell (for me, at least, have an idea) that GRRM have already decided that Jon will mount the throne, but it's the telling of the story of how Jon will mount that throne and how he will rule; it's the conflict of the human heart, that is worth telling for GRRM.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The extremely subtle and obscure clues are all of the R+L=J clues, especially the clues pointing to Jon being a legitimate child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus being the true heir to throne.

I think many people on this board underestimate the extent to which GRRM thought (at that time) that he was being subtle and obscure with clues that now are seen as fairly obvious by many (although there are still some who refuse to believe the clues mean what they mean--particularly about R&L being married and thus Jon being a "prince" and not a "bastard").

[sj4iy]

I think many people on this board underestimate the extent to which GRRM thought (at that time) that he was being subtle and obscure with clues that now are seen as fairly obvious by many (although there are still some who refuse to believe the clues mean what they mean--particularly about R&L being married and thus Jon being a "prince" and not a "bastard").

Well, I think there are other factors:

1. The books have been around for 18 years.

2. The internet is now the easiest way to find information.

3. The show has increased the popularity of the books, making it much more widely discussed.

Basically, something that only a fraction of readers would have picked up about 50 years ago has, because of the internet and the tv show, become widely disseminated knowledge.

[Jslay427]

I'm just curious, how can this topic still be discussed? I remember V 20 of R+L=J and it's not like anything has changed. Is it just new users to the forum ?

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I'm just curious, how can this topic still be discussed? I remember V 20 of R+L=J and it's not like anything has changed. Is it just new users to the forum ?

We just haven't yet hashed out the finer points of this theory. We're close. Just as Daenerys is close to Kings Landing.

[sj4iy]

I'm just curious, how can this topic still be discussed? I remember V 20 of R+L=J and it's not like anything has changed. Is it just new users to the forum ?

Sometimes. Most of the time people are simply discussing different subtopics of R+L=J...basically, anything related to it.

Also, math.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Also, math.

Reminds me too much of Algebra.

[Alia of the knife]

Don't worry. Jon doesn't remember anything...

I think Rhaegar did love his father very much. The thing is that he fits the type of those who rather deny or ignore a relative with a problem because either they loved them or because they don't really want to face the fact that they need to be the "bad guys" here. For example, having a son or a father being an alcoholic is hard and face a situation like that is something that many would rather ignore.

In Rhaegar's case, doing something didn't involve sending his father to a home: it meant rebellion. Rhaegar could have been killed at the very first attempt, and also his family. Considering Jaime remembers that Rhaegar returned and told Aerys to call Tywin, and Aerys actually sent letters, I suppose that, despite distrusting him, Aerys listened to his son (remember that his plan of setting KL on fire happened AFTER Rhaegar, his heir, died). With Rhaegar dead, then nothing would stop Aerys from going completely crazy on Westeros.

So, that's one of the reasons I believe the whole "kidnapping" of Lyanna was nothing but a facade so people would think he's having some fun with some lady while he was actually trying to gain supporters for his cause. And the love happened later.

I think that is an astute observation. Abused children will often still look fir affirmation from the abusing parent.

But, I rather think he did actually remember a time when his father was somewhat "normal," and perhaps was in some denial of the monster he was becoming.

Burying himself in his books, and his music may have been an escape as well.

I had also wondered if he lived on Dragonstone, and perhaps removed until I remembered that it was from under HIS bed that Tywins henchmen dragged Rhaenys from hiding,

[Alia of the knife]

Don't worry. Jon doesn't remember anything...

I think Rhaegar did love his father very much. The thing is that he fits the type of those who rather deny or ignore a relative with a problem because either they loved them or because they don't really want to face the fact that they need to be the "bad guys" here. For example, having a son or a father being an alcoholic is hard and face a situation like that is something that many would rather ignore.

In Rhaegar's case, doing something didn't involve sending his father to a home: it meant rebellion. Rhaegar could have been killed at the very first attempt, and also his family. Considering Jaime remembers that Rhaegar returned and told Aerys to call Tywin, and Aerys actually sent letters, I suppose that, despite distrusting him, Aerys listened to his son (remember that his plan of setting KL on fire happened AFTER Rhaegar, his heir, died). With Rhaegar dead, then nothing would stop Aerys from going completely crazy on Westeros.

So, that's one of the reasons I believe the whole "kidnapping" of Lyanna was nothing but a facade so people would think he's having some fun with some lady while he was actually trying to gain supporters for his cause. And the love happened later.

I think that is an astute observation. Abused children will often still look fir affirmation from the abusing parent.

But, I rather think he did actually remember a time when his father was somewhat "normal," and perhaps was in some denial of the monster he was becoming.

Burying himself in his books, and his music may have been an escape as well.

I had also wondered if he lived on Dragonstone, and perhaps removed until I remembered that it was from under HIS bed that Tywins henchmen dragged Rhaenys from hiding.

[Alia of the knife]

(Sigh) double post.

[addicted to snow]

Right now, R+L=J theory is pretty much mainstream for the hardcore readers and fans of the books...

This is a fair statement.

...this dilutes and saturate the thought that the clues and hints that GRRM have planted were indeed obscure and subtle. Either or, GRRM will not change his original plans, the clues, hints and foreshadowing of Jon's importance.

Jon is very important, but not for the reason that most Jon Fans & R+L=J followers believe. Most Participants on this board fail to realize that Jon becoming king & saving Westeros is incredibly predictable... But this is a series that is highly unpredictable. If you want to figure out what GRRM is doing with Jon, you have to come up with something less predictable that still fits all the foreshadowing...

GRRM have expressed that he wanted to change Aragorn, that he was not satisfied of the ending, he wants his version of Aragorn (Jon) to be more vague, filled with layers of complexity and the notion of...

"how will he rule after he's on the throne?"

"what will he do to all the orcs that was left behind?"

"will he accept them as part of his subject, enslave them, punish/kill them, or exile them?"

"will he impose taxes on his subjects through out the kingdom? how will he enforce it?"

etc..

You can tell (for me, at least, have an idea) that GRRM have already decided that Jon will mount the throne, but it's the telling of the story of how Jon will mount that throne and how he will rule; it's the conflict of the human heart, that is worth telling for GRRM.

Wow, that's quite a leap to assume that Jon is GRRM's Aragorn... I believe that Jon on the other end of the scale, he is more likely to be GRRM's Sauron (or as close as GRRM gets to having a Sauron). When I read that, I did not get the least impression that he was talking about Jon (or any particular ASOIAF character)

[JonSnow4President]

This is a fair statement.

Jon is very important, but not for the reason that most Jon Fans & R+L=J followers believe. Most Participants on this board fail to realize that Jon becoming king & saving Westeros is incredibly predictable... But this is a series that is highly unpredictable. If you want to figure out what GRRM is doing with Jon, you have to come up with something less predictable that still fits all the foreshadowing...

Wow, that's quite a leap to assume that Jon is GRRM's Aragorn... I believe that Jon on the other end of the scale, he is more likely to be GRRM's Sauron (or as close as GRRM gets to having a Sauron). When I read that, I did not get the least impression that he was talking about Jon (or any particular ASOIAF character)

I want you to look at this quote and then tell me you still think Jon is going to be the Night's King.

The sword is wrong, she has to know that ... light without heat ... an empty glamour ... the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness

Or get to explaining why you think Jon ends up with 'Lightbringer' from Stannis.

[Ygrain]

Jon is GRRM's answer to Aragorn (the true heir to the throne) in Tolkien's epic fantasy.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117963-jon-snow-and-aragorn-similarities/#entry6288980

GRRM have expressed that he wanted to change Aragorn, that he was not satisfied of the ending, he wants his version of Aragorn (Jon) to be more vague, filled with layers of complexity and the notion of...

"how will he rule after he's on the throne?"

"what will he do to all the orcs that was left behind?"

"will he accept them as part of his subject, enslave them, punish/kill them, or exile them?"

"will he impose taxes on his subjects through out the kingdom? how will he enforce it?"

etc..

You can tell (for me, at least, have an idea) that GRRM have already decided that Jon will mount the throne, but it's the telling of the story of how Jon will mount that throne and how he will rule; it's the conflict of the human heart, that is worth telling for GRRM.

The parallel is there, obviously - a true heir in hiding, his identity kept secret for the sake of safety, and a prophecy of his importance played a role in his parents' marriage (lol, and Gilraen was considered too young by the Dúnedain standards). However, when Aragorn learns, he fully embraces his identity and works towards claiming his heritage (and getting Arwen), whereas Jon is bound to have serious identity issues, quite certainly not want the throne, perhaps lose the woman he wants (if he develops some feelings for Val meanwhile) and marry one he doesn't want for political reasons.

- Oh, did I mention being brought up by a highly esteemed relative who acts as his (step)father? :-)

I think that is an astute observation. Abused children will often still look fir affirmation from the abusing parent.

But, I rather think he did actually remember a time when his father was somewhat "normal," and perhaps was in some denial of the monster he was becoming.

Burying himself in his books, and his music may have been an escape as well.

That's what I tend to think, as well. We know that Aerys used to be quite charming as a young man, so this would be the memory Rhaegar would have of his father from his childhood. When JonCon says that "even Rhaegar" saw Aerys' madness in the end, it IMHO implies a great degree of blindfolds towards what Aerys has become.

I had also wondered if he lived on Dragonstone, and perhaps removed until I remembered that it was from under HIS bed that Tywins henchmen dragged Rhaenys from hiding,

These are not mutually exclusive. When Rhaegar returned to KL from ToJ, he would have been there for weeks to months prior heading off to the Trident, so there would be a bed that was his.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's what I tend to think, as well. We know that Aerys used to be quite charming as a young man, so this would be the memory Rhaegar would have of his father from his childhood. When JonCon says that "even Rhaegar" saw Aerys' madness in the end, it IMHO implies a great degree of blindfolds towards what Aerys has become.

Still, they weren't really close. Rhaegar went to the Master at Arms by his own, after all.

I suppose that Rhaella tried to keep Rhaegar away from anything suspicious about Aerys, as he later did with Viserys.

[Eira Seren]

Thanks Eira, but "funny," can be tricky sometimes, lol.

Lady G, and Yolkboy are that magical blend of both good humor, and the intellectual.

As I'm sitting in the Dentist chair, George Thoroughgoods song "Bad to the Bone" came on, and I couldn't but help think of Lyannas approaching Howlands tormentors. :)

A good one!

The idea of Aerys as charming kind of gave me the creeps, but Ygrain has a point. It makes me wonder about Rhaegar, who was clearly quite charming when he wanted to be, too. And whether his own fascination with prophecy may have driven him to some rather unstable choices (and how much of that might have been manifesting from his father, or even from Rhaegar's desire to perhaps not be like his father. . . so much so that things got a bit carried away).

[Black Crow]

I suspect you are going to be very disappointed when Book 6 comes out (I think it is pretty clear that R+L=J will be confirmed in WoW). As to why it is inevitable (beyond all of the extensive clues that would make no sense otherwise), I believe it is inevitable because I believe that Jon is the balance between Ice and Fire necessary to win the Battle for the Dawn. I know many people who accept R+L=J do not agree with that characterization of its significance, but to me, Jon is clearly A Son(g) of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar), personified. And no, I am not claiming that Jon is the only meaning for the title or even the main meaning, but he is one of the many meanings, and it simply cannot be a coincidence that he would qualify so cleanly if R+L=J is true. Any other explanation of his parentage fails to make his parentage significant in and of itself. There is something special about the merger of House Stark and House Targaryen in the person of Jon Snow.

Whilst not arguing against this proposition which might very well turn out to be the case, the practical implications need to be thought through.

This is a story which is going to be resolved from within. If the Starks represent Ice and the Targaryens fire then you have to embrace a Stark connection to Ice and to the Old Races, just as the Targaryens are linked to dragons. There is then a fairly broad assumption [albeit not unchallenged] that Azor Ahai and the Prince are one and the same, but if Ice and Fire are to be conjoined in Jon rather than by Jon [ie; his marrying Danaerys] then they are most likely different for Azor Ahai is unambiguously the champion of Light and Fire and victory by Azor Ahai over the forces of Ice will merely plunge Westeros into that fiery hell predicted by Master Benero rather than an icy one. If on the other hand the Targaryens fled Valyria before the Doom because the Prince was promised to restore the balance between the two, then that implies that both Ice and Fire and not just the former must be defeated, and by extension if Danaerys is indeed Azor Ahai by all the signs and portents then on the one hand it is she who must be destroyed by Jon to bridle fire and the last Greenseer destroyed to bridle Ice. Simply being a fusion of Ice and Fire is not of itself enough.