The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'd also caution here that the premise of the world book is that it is a copy of a tome presented to Robert Baratheon just after the Rebellion - so we should expect the content of that tome to confirm, and not challenge, the essential political curriculum of the victors in that conflict. Rhaegar, clearly, was the loser... (and the object of Robert's fury)... so I'll be shocked if anything in the book provides reliable insight into his genuine motivations and intents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Not asking you to give anything away, certainly. So we can revisit after the worldbook release. But Rhaegar's comment to Jaime about changes doesn't help, either. In fact, aside from what Selmy believes the king concluded on the basis of Varys' information, I can't think of another place in the text (released to date) in which this idea of Rhaegar deposing Aerys ever comes up. Now, that's not to say I entirely disagree that Rhaegar was headed in that direction. But I'm not sure Rhaegar himself was there yet - or would have considered the "changes" he had in mind to have included a "deposing." So maybe it all comes down to "where you stand," in the end. But I think Rhaegar was looking for a way to affect some sort of peaceful transition... Ok I shouldn't say deposing. That's one option but it's also possible he was going to suggest that Aerys remain king in name and just remove all his power by being named Regent and Hand. Obviously the Maester writing the book was not in Rhaegar's inner circle, but there are hints of his intentions. The tension between father and son is made clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'd also caution here that the premise of the world book is that it is a copy of a tome presented to Robert Baratheon just after the Rebellion - so we should expect the content of that tome to confirm, and not challenge, the essential political curriculum of the victors in that conflict. Rhaegar, clearly, was the loser... (and the object of Robert's fury)... so I'll be shocked if anything in the book provides reliable insight into his genuine motivations and intents. I'm not really sure this is a factor in what we're talking about. Rhaegar is clearly the loser regardless of his intentions when he first arranged for the Tournament and Harrenhal. Revealing to Robert that Rhaegar had once considered challenging his father's power but then for whatever reason didn't follow through doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Robert probably already knew anywayl. He was one of the Lords in attendance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I hear what you're saying, but it's worth pointing out that even this explanation (bolded above) is received through the recollections of Barristan Selmy. The difference, as I see it, is that this idea (that Rhaegar was using the tourney to conspire against Aerys) was not Selmy's own understanding of the event... instead, it's a description of what he believes Varys told the king, and it's the conspiracy theory that he thinks led Aerys to crash the party. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there. (5.67) That is not a confirmation that Rhaegar actually was conspiring to depose him... or even what Selmy himself thinks of the idea (though his distaste for Varys gives us a clue). It may be nothing more than a second or third hand report that Varys' stream of information stoked the king's growing paranoia and convinced him he should attend the tourney. In fact - the use of that particular phrase, "King Aerys became convinced," suggests that what the king thought and what was actually the case were not necessarily the same thing. With all that in mind, I would not view this text as a reliable source of information for the "true purpose" of the Harrenhal event.The other piece of irony though is that while Aerys might have been "mad," he wasn't necessarily wrong about events.Selmys conversations with Dany regarding her family, and particularly Rhaegar whom she has put on a pedestal via Viserys, show his caution in opening up to her about the truth of events.My take is Selmy knows:~ who Ashara was involved with~ the secrets of the Red Keep and Rhaegar, Arthur, and possibly even Rhaellas involvement.(I think his disapproval of Rhaegars trust in Arthur over him stems from the fact that Dayne, (and Whent), may have been dabbling in the GOT and as KG, disapproves, lamenting he now finds himself doing the same thing.~ the nature of Rhaegar and Elias marriage, as well as Aerys and Rhaella.He even tries to emphasize that he would not know what was in the princes heart, when I'm pretty sure he did, so cautious he is with her question on why Rhaegar would have behaved the way he did.He actually didn't tell Dany that Rhaegar loved Lyanna~ yet. He is telling the reader in his internal monologue.~ The Starks as an honorable family, (I forget where I just recently read it, but actually Rickard was known as an honorable man). He tries to tell Dani about Ned, but she refuses to listen.I speculate that his recollections will be a slow "drip drip," of information as the book goes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 The other piece of irony though is that while Aerys might have been "mad," he wasn't necessarily wrong about events.Selmys conversations with Dany regarding her family, and particularly Rhaegar whom she has put on a pedestal via Viserys, show his caution in opening up to her about the truth of events. Agreed. The context of what Selmy is telling Dany is important there. Not only does Dany have Rhaegar up on a pedestal, but she also views herself as Rhaegar-come-again, when people tell her she's like Rhaegar it's one of the highest compliments in her mind, hence why she doesn't like the idea of him not winning tourneys or being "sad" all the time. Barry is choosing words carefully. I speculate that his recollections will be a slow "drip drip," of information as the book goes along. I agree. Also, I want to add Summerhall to your list. I think he knows a great deal about what happened there but GRRM isn't ready for his audience to know that yet so Selmy either gets dismissed or interrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The other piece of irony though is that while Aerys might have been "mad," he wasn't necessarily wrong about events. Agreed, of course. Rhaegar's strategy, whatever it was, may well have amounted to a "deposing" as far as Aerys was concerned. The king was not necessarily wrong in that respect. But he was not necessarily right, either. We don't know. My point is simply that to state affirmatively that "Rhaegar was trying to pull together support to depose Aerys"... is to adopt, and advocate for, the Mad King's own paranoid interpretation of the event. Because that's the only source for that view that we have. As you say, that doesn't necessarily make it wrong. But is it a reasoned and rational conclusion to draw concerning Rhaegar's purpose and activity at that time? Considering Selmy's attribution of the view... probably not. Selmys conversations with Dany regarding her family, and particularly Rhaegar whom she has put on a pedestal via Viserys, show his caution in opening up to her about the truth of events. Agreed. The context of what Selmy is telling Dany is important there. Not only does Dany have Rhaegar up on a pedestal, but she also views herself as Rhaegar-come-again, when people tell her she's like Rhaegar it's one of the highest compliments in her mind, hence why she doesn't like the idea of him not winning tourneys or being "sad" all the time. Barry is choosing words carefully. Agreed, again - that Selmy is cautious in what he tells Dany at that point. Later he even tells us why, after Jorah outs the old man to the queen: "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not..." “…my father's daughter?" If she was not her father's daughter, who was she? “…mad," he finished. "But I see no taint in you." (3.71) Makes Whitebeard's conversations with Dany about Aerys rather interesting, on reread... considering that his manner may, in fact, have reflected the way he'd learned to communicate with Aerys himself. Cautiously, carefully... cushioning the hard truths with gentle words as he feels out his liege's current mood... etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Random, but I was just thinking that maybe Ned planted the Ashara Dayne story, or at least knew about it as an explanation if Jon ended up with any Targaryen-esque traits, purple eyes, light hair etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Random, but I was just thinking that maybe Ned planted the Ashara Dayne story, or at least knew about it as an explanation if Jon ended up with any Targaryen-esque traits, purple eyes, light hair etc. I have heard that theory before, but it seems there might be two problems. One is that Ashara had dark hair, not light hair. Two is that Ned does not seem to be the type that would tarnish such a woman's reputation, even for such a good cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 I have heard that theory before, but it seems there might be two problems. One is that Ashara had dark hair, not light hair. Two is that Ned does not seem to be the type that would tarnish such a woman's reputation, even for such a good cause. I think that last part is especially true. Even when Cat asks him about it early in their marriage, Ned doesn't go ahead and accept the lie, he just cuts it off right away and then says never to speak of Ashara again. So, I agree. He's not going to use her name in his lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Random, but I was just thinking that maybe Ned planted the Ashara Dayne story, or at least knew about it as an explanation if Jon ended up with any Targaryen-esque traits, purple eyes, light hair etc.I don't think he planted the story I think people just assumed it and Ned just let them because he wanted Jon's mother to be associated with anybody not named Lyanna Stark. And I don't think Ned would go around saying things that's not true that would tarnish someone's reputation he didn't correct the idea that Ashara was Jon's mother nor did he fed the idea either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzanna Stormborn Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'm not really sure this is a factor in what we're talking about. Rhaegar is clearly the loser regardless of his intentions when he first arranged for the Tournament and Harrenhal. Revealing to Robert that Rhaegar had once considered challenging his father's power but then for whatever reason didn't follow through doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Robert probably already knew anywayl. He was one of the Lords in attendance. Dude! 10 Days til it comes out!! My guess is that there will be a plethora of info regarding R+L=J, starting with duskendale through Summerhall and the tourney at Harrenhal........omg so many things. It would be pretty sweet if we got some Robert/Rhaegar conversations prior to the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I do plan to read the worldbook. But the bare fact that Oswell Whent assisted in the arrangement of the tourney - even the inference that Rhaegar might have called the tourney - does not tell us that the prince wanted to depose his father.We don't know exactly what the council Rhaegar was planning to call was about, but it's interesting to note that the first Great Council called to determine the Targaryen succession was held at Harrenhal. Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."The question is whether Rhaegar was actually planning to:A. Call a Great Council, as generally thought -- in which case he was probably trying to force Aerys' hand on issues of control of the throne rather than deposing him. Or,B. Call a new Black (Purple?) Council. Or,C. Call the Small Council and ask them to pay for Jamie to get the broken pauldron on the shoulder of his suit of armour replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Fair enough. But Rhaegar was not the only one there capable of giving such a command. What if the order had come from Aerys...? Actually we're forgetting about one other person who could have ordered Selmy to "take a fall", his Lord Commander Hightower. The same Lord Commander who is present at the Tower of Joy with Arthur and Oswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 About Rhaegar trying to talk to Lords about getting Aerys overthrown... Think he was a bit bummed that the 4 Stark children turned up, and not Rickard himself? Can you imagine him asking support from Brandon of all people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 About Rhaegar trying to talk to Lords about getting Aerys overthrown... Think he was a bit bummed that the 4 Stark children turned up, and not Rickard himself? Can you imagine him asking support from Brandon of all people? Am I forgetting something? Where was Lord Rickard at the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 About Rhaegar trying to talk to Lords about getting Aerys overthrown... Think he was a bit bummed that the 4 Stark children turned up, and not Rickard himself? Can you imagine him asking support from Brandon of all people? Yeah - it had occurred to me that Lord Rickard's absence would be strange, in the event Rhaegar was attempting a G7 summit. Do we know for a fact that he stayed at Winterfell? I mean, I know it's the whole "always a Stark at Winterfell" bit... and the others all seem to be at Harrenhal. But there are other Lords that haven't been explicitly placed there either - and it's hard to imagine they all skipped it. Hoster Tully, for instance... ain't no way Riverrun missed that tourney, surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 It just occurred to me that Ned's mother was a Stark as well, so she could have been "the Stark in WF" (if alive, and probably not?), but that still doesn't put Rickard's name into the KotLT story. Lyanna got in trouble helping Howland, and Ned took him in (Brandon must not have given much about it?), but if Rickard had been there he would have stepped up, right? And letting all your heirs travel together isn't smart. Weird. And yeah, the Tullys weren't there either. Did the Blackfish not even come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Not a Tully mentioned, which I find passing strange, since surely Hoster would have seen this as an opportunity for Cat to meet Brandon and Lysa to meet... anyone? Personally I've always assumed George has a reason that the Tully children couldn't be there. Perhaps it had to be written that way, so that in the "present" when most of the other attendees are dead, we are left with only one or two candidates who might know what the holy hell went on there.As for Lord Rickard, I've wondered in the past about those who were apparently not present -- namely Queen Rhaella, Lord Hoster Tully, and Lord Rickard Stark. The queen and two of the high Lords whose families would lead the rebellion. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 It doesn't say that Dany doesn't recognize the woman's name. Her PoV simply doesn't reveal it to us. It's a stylistic choice by the author.Just so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 As for Lord Rickard, I've wondered in the past about those who were apparently not present -- namely Queen Rhaella, Lord Hoster Tully, and Lord Rickard Stark. The queen and two of the high Lords whose families would lead the rebellion. Hmmm... Do you think Rhaegar and Rhaella were pulling double duty? Rhaegar took some families at HH while Rhaella took the other two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.