The Meereenese Blot

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

I knot that, HOWEVER did the Yunkaii ever bother to tell Dany about the deals they made prior to the peace negotiation which will affect Dany and Meereen AFTER the peace negotiation?

The answer is NO they didn't.

Which means that at least some of the Yunkaii leadership where NOT negotiating in good faith with Dany. What do you think was going to happen when the Volantis fleet showed up? What would the Yunkaii say, "my bad, totally forgot about that army that was heading your way at our request. But in our defense it totally happened before we sat down to negotiate".

1) sry i read twice your initial comment.

2) She knew i think about all the sellsword deals Yunkai had. Unless a fifth free company appears i don´t see the problem.

3) Dany should negotiate with Volantis its own terms. The problem is thinking that Yunkai can make peace in name of all the slaver states around the world. If Volantis declares war on Dany.. thats not the problem of the wise masters.

Worse. Volantis has launched its fleet against us.” “Volantis.” Selmy’s sword hand tingled. We made a peace with Yunkai. Not with Volantis.

4) Volantis is not under contract of Yunkai. a Wise master traveled to Volantis to contract sellswords, and bribe one of the triarchs to get an ally. But Yunkai is not under obligation to pay Volantis for their efforts. If they sailed, they sailed under their own risk.

5) What do i think would have happened? under the context the peace was made, probably Volantis should have negotiate their own peace terms with Meereen. The point is that key players in the yunkish camp died. Yurkhaz and Yezzan were key to keeping the peace. Their dead gave place to the incendiaries like Bloodbeard.

If Yurkhaz or Yezzan were alive when Volantis arrived, theYunkish probably wouldn´t have thrown the peace away. But now, it seemed like the remaining yunkish lords were just bidding their time until Volantis arrived.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

As far as I see, we have three possible cases:

• the Yunkish successfully lured sellswords to their side with the promise of plunder in Meereen and then decided they wanted peace instead. That makes them seem kind of dishonest, since they clearly entered negotiations in bad faith. (They knew, that peace was impossible for Meereen now that a third party was involved but still made Dany compromise on a lot of positions, even though they could only withdraw their own troops, which were only a tiny fraction of the armies Dany was about to face)

the Yunkish sent emissaries to Volantis, then decided they wanted peace and then Volantis decided to go to war because of the promises Yunkai had made before they decided to negotiate peace with Dany: IMO this is the situation that makes them look best, but if they had entered the negotiations in complete honesty they should have told Dany, that even after successful peace-negotiations with them she still should prepare for the Volantene fleet, since the Yunkai had promised them plunder and did not know, whether Volantis would come because of their offer or not.

the Yunkish sent people to Volantis and the other places after they had made peace: this is the only situation, where complete peace was possible in the beginning

ETA: Like MoIaF said, the Yunkish probably entered their peace-negotiations in bad faith. Since part of the sellsword's pay was the promise of Meereneese plunder and I do not see the Yunkish recompensating their sellsword-companies with their own slaves instead of Meereneese ones (they probably do not even have the numbers they promised themselves), the sellsword companies were no part of the peace-negotiations on the Yunkish side, Dany however thought that making peace with the Yunkish would make peace with ALL factions and therefore made a lot more concessions then she would have make, if only peace with the Yunkish soldier-slaves (who are a laugh btw) was part of the negotiations.

A) With the promise of Gold. Plunder seems like a bonus. Only bloodbeard seemed to want to take the city, the rest seemed content with getting paid and not fight at all. If I were sellsword, that would be my kind of business.

B) Like I said, people often underestimate the effect of slow information flows. Yunkai sent emisarries to Volantis to get sellswords and allies (volantis if possible) before actually starting the peace talks. That doesn´t mean bad faith at all. The thing is, when peace talks start, the supreme commander of the Army besieging Meereen can only negotiate in name of certain parties that want Dany dead. Certainly not Volantis. If they want to declare war on Meereen, that’s their call.

C) That I don´t think is the case.

Your ETA: we don´t know the terms of the sellsword contracts. And we don´t know how much gold Yunkai has. They are supposed to be filthy rich.

The Sellsword Companies are paid by the Yunkish Lords. Of course they are part of the peace talks.

As in real life, a diplomatic negotiator represents certain parties. In this case, when the peace talks started, the people talking to Hizzard were representing the armies besieging the city. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. You can´t represent all factions and cities that hate dany and want her dead from asshai to king´s landing. By the time the peace talks started (and ended) the yunkish camp didn´t even know if Volantis was coming or not. They can´t negotiate in their name.

[Tynned Lannistark]

Thanks for mentioning the Blot again. I was looking for these essays but forgot where I read them :)

I really liked the Jon and especially Dany essays. Didnt read the rest except one Tyrion and wasn't impressed by it.

The main importance for me was that it helped me understand the purpsoe of the Meereen plot line, which I originally hated.

Later on reading similar analysis on Jon, I began to change my mind about ADWD which I did not like at first read. at least not compared to the previous books.

[butterbumps!]

I have a question. Is it poor form to discuss another fan's analysis like this? I genuinely don't know what the etiquette is for something like this.

To answer the OP, no, I don't believe that what I've read of the MB is the strongest analysis I've seen. I took particular exception to the Jon essays. But to address this since it's come up-- essays about a character arc are inherently different than reread projects; the reread structure is about breaking down the arc and looking closely at each segment, whereas the essays like the ones under discussion are inherently more digested. There's advantages to both structures, but the type of analysis is different, and perhaps not easily compared.

My specific problem with the Jon essays were that they worked backwards from the conclusion that A. Jon should have ("should" as per what Martin's takeaway was meant to be) made a more utilitarian choice, and that marching south and the Arya mission were wrong; adjacently, he argues that Jon's arc is one of LC versus hero, or some similar terminology pointing to a mutually exclusive dichotomy and B. That Jon's prime motivation in the last chapter was irrational vengeance and family loyalty such he was marching to Winterfell to rescue Arya. I think both of these premises are faulty (especially the second one-- as per the letter, Jon knows Arya isn't in Winterfell), so I found the essays very flawed as a result of that.

[SeanF]

I have a question. Is it poor form to discuss another fan's analysis like this? I genuinely don't know what the etiquette is for something like this.

To answer the OP, no, I don't believe that what I've read of the MB is the strongest analysis I've seen. I took particular exception to the Jon essays. But to address this since it's come up-- essays about a character arc are inherently different than reread projects; the reread structure is about breaking down the arc and looking

closely at each segment, whereas the essays like the ones under discussion are inherently more digested. There's advantages to both structures, but the type of analysis is different, and perhaps not easily compared.

My specific problem with the Jon essays were that they worked backwards from the conclusion that A. Jon should have ("should" as per what Martin's takeaway was meant to be) made a more utilitarian choice, and that marching south and the Arya mission were wrong; adjacently, he argues that Jon's arc is one of LC versus hero, or some similar terminology pointing to a mutually exclusive dichotomy and B. That Jon's prime motivation in the last chapter was irrational vengeance and family loyalty such he was marching to Winterfell to rescue Arya. I think both of these premises are faulty (especially the second one-- as per the letter, Jon

knows Arya isn't in Winterfell), so I found the essays very flawed as a result of that.

I think Adam Feldman is registered here. It might be polite to invite him to participate in this thread.

I think all the essays are well-argued and well-researched, even though I disagree with some conclusions (Jon, in particular).

[Mladen]

I think Adam Feldman is registered here. It might be polite to invite him to participate in this thread.

I think all the essays are well-argued and well-researched, even though I disagree with some conclusions (Jon, in particular).

One could argue that it is rather necessity for any debate about those essays.

I suppose Howland Reed= High Septon is also well-researched (not that these two are in any way, at the same league), but when premise upon conclusions are incorrect, than the entire thing falls like house of cards.

[yolkboy]

I have a question. Is it poor form to discuss another fan's analysis like this? I genuinely don't know what the etiquette is for something like this.

No it's clearly rude, especially when done in the manner it has been.

[Universal Sword Donor]

One could argue that it is rather necessity for any debate about those essays.

I suppose Howland Reed= High Septon is also well-researched (not that these two are in any way, at the same league), but when premise upon conclusions are incorrect, than the entire thing falls like house of cards.

But you *love* those threads!

[butterbumps!]

I think Adam Feldman is registered here. It might be polite to invite him to participate in this thread.

I think all the essays are well-argued and well-researched, even though I disagree with some conclusions (Jon, in particular).

Objectively, I can see the superior virtue of the essays from a where essays like this have a considerable advantage from a product-type perspective. Essays like that are meant to be self contained, explaining a full argument top to bottom. Even if premises are wrong, or the conclusions are off (objectively or in one's personal opinion), it's a coherent, finished product. The forum doesn't lend itself to essay writing, though-- it's really structured for discussion (and this is the forum's great advantage). The MB offers a very different type of product than the forum. We're not typically writing contained essays on here, so a complete analysis on anything-- of good quality content or otherwise-- is rare to begin with at all on here.

No it's clearly rude, especially when done in the manner it has been.

yea, I was kind of like "how the fuck was i brought into this" when I saw I was apparently on the table to get ripped apart too, lol. I was trying to think about the fact that all of us, including the essay author, are posting publicly, and therefore, whether that opens us for critique on here, or if it pushes boundaries. I'd prefer to err on the side of politeness, too.

I'd already conveyed the same critique directly to the author during a debate he and I had on this forum about the Jon essays. I wouldn't have stated it here otherwise.

[thehandwipes]

The whole point of Dany's arc is that peace is a grueling, painstaking process and is fragile and can in many cases even be immoral. After three full books detailing the gruesome reality behind the heroic stories of war, he had to detail the fact that peace can be every bit as sickening. Its not a pacifist arc. Peace in Meerene means slavery, blood sport, and giving your body to someone who disgusts you.

Peace is what drove Robert mad. He couldn't stand the politics and the scheming and sharing his power and his bed with people he despised, he wanted to put his hammer through their skulls.

This is the same peace that Ned and Robb refused because they couldn't stand to let the Lannisters get away with their crimes.

Dany's arc shows us a glimpse of the road not taken in Westeros; and its no surprise that reading it was frustrating because we all wanted Dany to start feeding slavers to her dragons the same way we wanted Ned to put his sword through Jaime Lannister and Robb to chop off Joffrey's head. But it didn't work out that way and we don't know how it will work out in Meerene. But Dany had to achieve peace and reject it in her heart, else Meerene is nothing but pointless filler.

If the peace was never real then GRRM wasted an entire book getting us to an inevitable war he then didn't have room to fit in. But the point was to get the girl with the gentle heart to admit that dragons plant no trees. She is not and never will be a peacemaker, which means she is now in the right frame of mind to bring fire and blood down on her enemies at exactly the same time that she happens to land back the Dothraki Sea. Its almost as if someone planned it out that way.

[PatrickStormborn]

The whole point of Dany's arc is that peace is a grueling, painstaking process and is fragile and can in many cases even be immoral. After three full books detailing the gruesome reality behind the heroic stories of war, he had to detail the fact that peace can be every bit as sickening. Its not a pacifist arc. Peace in Meerene means slavery, blood sport, and giving your body to someone who disgusts you.

Peace is what drove Robert mad. He couldn't stand the politics and the scheming and sharing his power and his bed with people he despised, he wanted to put his hammer through their skulls.

This is the same peace that Ned and Robb refused because they couldn't stand to let the Lannisters get away with their crimes.

Dany's arc shows us a glimpse of the road not taken in Westeros; and its no surprise that reading it was frustrating because we all wanted Dany to start feeding slavers to her dragons the same way we wanted Ned to put his sword through Jaime Lannister and Robb to chop off Joffrey's head. But it didn't work out that way and we don't know how it will work out in Meerene. But Dany had to achieve peace and reject it in her heart, else Meerene is nothing but pointless filler.

If the peace was never real then GRRM wasted an entire book getting us to an inevitable war he then didn't have room to fit in. But the point was to get the girl with the gentle heart to admit that dragons plant no trees. She is not and never will be a peacemaker, which means she is now in the right frame of mind to bring fire and blood down on her enemies at exactly the same time that she happens to land back the Dothraki Sea. Its almost as if someone planned it out that way.

Great point. But I'd argue that Dany's commitment to the peace was perhaps the most important factor - and she was committed to it. I still think that Yunkai was commited to it too... But that doesn't mean it would have lasted once Volantis and/or the Dothraki arrived.

[thehandwipes]

Volantis was never a part of the peace. The peace started with wedding, of course Yunkai was hiring sellswords and forging alliances with others who had reason to oppose Dany. You prepare for war while you negotiate peace, you wouldn't need to be negotiating a peace if you weren't at risk of war.

There are a lot of really fantastic posters here, the Meerenese Blot is as good as the best I've seen on this forum.

[thehandwipes]

that's the tragedy, all the parties were committed to it.

[PatrickStormborn]

Volantis was never a part of the peace. The peace started with wedding, of course Yunkai was hiring sellswords and forging alliances with others who had reason to oppose Dany. You prepare for war while you negotiate peace, you wouldn't need to be negotiating a peace if you weren't at risk of war.

There are a lot of really fantastic posters here, the Meerenese Blot is as good as the best I've seen on this forum.

Of course Volantis was never a part of the peace, but that's the point: the peace could not have survived the arrival of Volantis. If the Volantenes launched their fleet against Daenerys, you can bet they wouldn't turn back just because the Yunkai'i told them it was all okay now. Similarly, there's no way Yunkai would ally with Volantis, and they'd risk losing the sellswords to the Volantenes.

[MoIaF]

1) sry i read twice your initial comment.

2) She knew i think about all the sellsword deals Yunkai had. Unless a fifth free company appears i don´t see the problem.

3) Dany should negotiate with Volantis its own terms. The problem is thinking that Yunkai can make peace in name of all the slaver states around the world. If Volantis declares war on Dany.. thats not the problem of the wise masters.

4) Volantis is not under contract of Yunkai. a Wise master traveled to Volantis to contract sellswords, and bribe one of the triarchs to get an ally. But Yunkai is not under obligation to pay Volantis for their efforts. If they sailed, they sailed under their own risk.

5) What do i think would have happened? under the context the peace was made, probably Volantis should have negotiate their own peace terms with Meereen. The point is that key players in the yunkish camp died. Yurkhaz and Yezzan were key to keeping the peace. Their dead gave place to the incendiaries like Bloodbeard.

If Yurkhaz or Yezzan were alive when Volantis arrived, theYunkish probably wouldn´t have thrown the peace away. But now, it seemed like the remaining yunkish lords were just bidding their time until Volantis arrived.

2. She knew about the sellsords but not the payments they offered. Had she known that it would have been a different story.

3. That's not the point. The point is that the Yunkai instigated the Volanteans to join in the war and yet when they decided to negotiate and after they negotiated they never mentioned to Dany that there was a high possibility that a Volantean army was heading her way.

How is that good faith?

Great point. But I'd argue that Dany's commitment to the peace was perhaps the most important factor - and she was committed to it. I still think that Yunkai was commited to it too... But that doesn't mean it would have lasted once Volantis and/or the Dothraki arrived.

I sort of disagree here. I think some where committee but not all as we see after Yezzan's death.

Of course Volantis was never a part of the peace, but that's the point: the peace could not have survived the arrival of Volantis. If the Volantenes launched their fleet against Daenerys, you can bet they wouldn't turn back just because the Yunkai'i told them it was all okay now. Similarly, there's no way Yunkai would ally with Volantis, and they'd risk losing the sellswords to the Volantenes.

This is my problem when people say the peace was real.

[OldGimletEye]

Of course Volantis was never a part of the peace, but that's the point: the peace could not have survived the arrival of Volantis. If the Volantenes launched their fleet against Daenerys, you can bet they wouldn't turn back just because the Yunkai'i told them it was all okay now. Similarly, there's no way Yunkai would ally with Volantis, and they'd risk losing the sellswords to the Volantenes.

And what exactly would have been the response of New Ghis, Tolos, the Quartheen, et. al. if the Volantenes would have proceeded with war? Would they have been fine with that? Also, the doves within Yunkai must have had some plan to deal with the arrival of the Volantenes or they were just being bullshit artist or delusional.

[PatrickStormborn]

I sort of disagree here. I think some where committee but not all as we see after Yezzan's death.

Oh, yeah, I agree with you. I think I said in my first post that I don't believe all the Yunkai'i had the same views all the time. Some of them (like Grazdan mo Eraz) probably wouldn't be satisfied unless Dany was killed. But I do think that, without the arrival of Volantis, the Yunkai'i most likely would have stayed with the peace. Well, that was before Daznak's Pit, of course.

ETA:

And what exactly would have been the response of New Ghis, Tolos, the Quartheen, et. al. if the Volantenes would have proceeded with war? Would they have been fine with that? Also, the doves within Yunkai must have had some plan to deal with the arrival of the Volantenes or they were just being bullshit artist or delusional.

It would be chaos. But the Volantenes could not possibly let Meereen remain free - it's causing too many problems within Volantis.

[thehandwipes]

two things:

what would the Volanteen fleet done without Yunkish allies? Yeah, probably sailed home after some awkward diplomacy. Volantis is all the way on the other side of the Doom, fleets and armies require massive supplies to be effective and that means local allies or the ability to live off the land. Few armies do that well.

the peace was with Yunkai and the Meerenese nobles, it has nothing to do with what would have happened if foreign fleets of dothraki hordes or alien spaceships arrived to attack Meerene.

[MoIaF]

two things:

what would the Volanteen fleet done without Yunkish allies? Yeah, probably sailed home after some awkward diplomacy. Volantis is all the way on the other side of the Doom, fleets and armies require massive supplies to be effective and that means local allies or the ability to live off the land. Few armies do that well.

What!?

You seriously believe that the Volanteen would sail home without eliminating the thread that is Daenerys?

The fact that she exist is about to cause a revolution in Volantis and you think that they would leave without trying to eliminate an enormous thread to their social order?

By they way, their army is probably large enough to take over a good chuck of Salver's Bay, they're aren't going to be asking for anything. They will take what they need.

the peace was with Yunkai and the Meerenese nobles, it has nothing to do with what would have happened if foreign fleets of dothraki hordes or alien spaceships arrived to attack Meerene.

And yet, the Yunkai were the ones who instigated that foreign fleet to come to Meereen. Are you absolving the Yunkai from their responsibility?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

the peace was with Yunkai and the Meerenese nobles, it has nothing to do with what would have happened if foreign fleets of dothraki hordes or alien spaceships arrived to attack Meerene.

The problem is, as MOIAF stated, is that if the peace wasn't a sham, then during the negotiation the Volantine fleet should have been brought up. You can't negotiate for peace and at the same time very well know that one of your allies are also coming to attack.

The fact that none of the Targaryen party know about this foreign fleet is what makes people think the peace wasn't real.