Historic foreshadowing / history repeating itself

[MoIaF]

Disagree, sort of. Now history repeating itself, you know where I stand. Cyclical nature, pretty much involved in everything I look at and write, like our discussion on rebirths and of course the Sun and the Moon, the Yin Yang effect. But You know when it repeats I always inverse the symbolism, and themes. This is actually a good example of why. Like when I talk about the Night King and the Light Kings. Pretty much the same story but the symbolism is inverse. The Rat cook and Wyman. So look at Dany and Nym, what's the difference. Just like the Night King and the light King. Nym is water, that the symbol of her people. Dany is fire. Nym was running away. What have I always said Dany is going to do? She is not going to run, she we won't come to Westeros in defeat but in Victory. We she won't be saving her people, in Essos, she will be saving the inverse which is the people of?

This is why I always work the inverse, and why it is always so accurate. No the stories will not be exact, but you don't need them to be. But if you understand what he does with the cycles of history, you can understand what direction things are headed in. It's always like the sun and the moon, the sun rises crosses the sky and sets, that's it's story, but the moon rises crosses the sky just like the sun and it's sets. The symbolism is just inverse.

Ok remember when we talked about multiple rebirths with Dany. The rebirth of Fire, Dany walks into and out of the Fire, she is carrying dragons. She is called the Unburnt because she lived. Then goes on a long walk across a red waste a desert. Then the fighting pit. Lots fire, but this time she flies out on the dragon, and everyone thinks she is dead. Which she isn't, then goes on a long hard walk, but this time in a sea and she does spend a lot of time in the water. Both times she comes across a ruin, one helps her and one does not. So that's sort of how we see history work in the books. It does not just happen in the large scale but also within the stories of the characters themselves.

Oh, I don't think Dany will leave Slaver's Bay/ Essos in defeat at all. She will defeat her enemies and it won't be pretty. What I mean is that Slaver's Bay is a cesspool and Dany will raise it to the ground to both destroy it and cleanse it. Fire is both a source of destruction and creation but it'll be a long time before the land can be worked again, it'll need time to heal. In the meantime Dany will need to take care of her people and so she'll be moving them West. Not all will come to Westeros of course but a good number of them will.

[Ser Creighton]

You know just a minor thought but when dealing with lets say the inverse. Who has Dany seen herself as on multiple occasions? Hint it's a man, which of course symbolically is the opposite of a woman. Remember which Man it is? I know you do, and that may give you some insight to her part of the story in lets say Westeros, what little Prophecy was that guy all about? Of course a baby will eventually be involved, but also I believe there was a Woman with Ice symbolism and blue flowers involved. I know Dany has seen a blue flower, hmmmmmm but of course as the cycles go t he symbolism has to inverse. Like you would need a guy associated with ice. Where can I find a guy associated with a blue flower and Ice.

I'm lost I give up. That person does not exist in the books.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh, I don't think Dany will leave Slaver's Bay/ Essos in defeat at all. She will defeat her enemies and it won't be pretty. What I mean is that Slaver's Bay is a cesspool and Dany will raise it to the ground to both destroy it and cleanse it. Fire is both a source of destruction and creation but it'll be a long time before the land can be worked again, it'll need time to heal. In the meantime Dany will need to take care of her people and so she'll be moving them West. Not all will come to Westeros of course but a good number of them will.

Of course she isn't going to lose it's the inverse. If Nym lost then the inverse suggest Dany will???? I don't think her people are coming with her at least not the freed men. I think fighters will be coming with her. And again that is the inverse Nym really didn't have any warriors. like Nym came to Westeros and was saved, so the inverse would be Dany saving maybe some people in Westeros. Again the symbolism, water and fire in this case, it is the inverse.

Nym came because she was fleeing and needed a place for her people. Dany is not going to be fleeing but she will be coming to Westeros. If Nym and her people needed saving in her story, and the inverse is applied who would need Saving in Dany' story? Is there anything going on in Westeros that could be bad? Like really bad.

[MoIaF]

You know just a minor thought but when dealing with lets say the inverse. Who has Dany seen herself as on multiple occasions? Hint it's a man, which of course symbolically is the opposite of a woman. Remember which Man it is? I know you do, and that may give you some insight to her part of the story in lets say Westeros, what little Prophecy was that guy all about? Of course a baby will eventually be involved, but also I believe there was a Woman with Ice symbolism and blue flowers involved. I know Dany has seen a blue flower, hmmmmmm but of course as the cycles go t he symbolism has to inverse. Like you would need a guy associated with ice. Where can I find a guy associated with a blue flower and Ice.

I'm lost I give up. That person does not exist in the books.

Don't be so coy, spit it out.

Well, we've discussed Dany's connection to Rhaegar. and the inverse symbolism with her and Jon and I agree with most of your theory. I just found it really intriguing that Dany's Balckwood ancestry kind of ties her in with the obvious / obscure connection with Jon. Very intriguing indeed.

ETA: corrected for crazy autocorrect.

[MoIaF]

Of course she isn't going to lose it's the inverse. If Nym lost then the inverse suggest Dany will???? I don't think her people are coming with her at least not the freed men. I think fighters will be coming with her. And again that is the inverse Nym really didn't have any warriors. like Nym came to Westeros and was saved, so the inverse would be Dany saving maybe some people in Westeros. Again the symbolism, water and fire in this case, it is the inverse.

Oh, I see what you were getting at. Don't be so cryptic next time. :D

Yes, I now know what sort of parallel you are getting at, in short, Nymeria came to Westeros to be saved while Dany will come to save it or help save it as I believe.

[Ser Creighton]

Don't be so coy, spit it out.

Well, we've discussed Dany's connection to Rhaegar. and the inverse symbolism with her and Zion and I agree with most of your theory. I just found it really intriguing that Dany's Balckwood ancestry kind of ties her in with the obvious / obscure connection with Jon. Very intriguing indeed.

Who is this Jon you speak of? It's weird because I just wrote something in the R+L thread in general that is about natural connections between the Dancing Dragons. I mean the Dragon of Fire and the Dragon of Ice. Symbolic Ice and fire and dragons that is.

Anyway yeah that's kind of how I view the history and the cycles of the story. Though I tell people not to make it all about one story. Because the POV' have much broader stories than the tales of old. They incorporate different aspect from different histories as Martin sees fit in order to continue the cyclical theme. Like you see the Nym connection, but also the R+L connection. Rhaegar and so on. Like ummm Dany is taking on Ghis like the Valyrians of old. But what is the difference? Little Miss Valyria not a fan of slavery.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh, I see what you were getting at. Don't be so cryptic next time. :D

Yes, I can now what sort of parallel you are getting at, in short, Nymeria came to Westeros to be saved while Dany will come to save it or help save it as I believe.

There you go.

Personally I think the girl is thirsty and could use a nice tall cool glass of water and make sure there is ice and that cup :)

[MoIaF]

There you go.

Personally I think the girl is thirsty and could use a nice tall cool glass of water and make sure there is ice and that cup :)

:devil: hehe

"a flagon of water, cold as you can find it."

[Mithras]

But a sudden shout snapped her head about before she could leap. The ferrymen were rushing forward, poles in hand. For a moment she did not understand what was happening. Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. The oarsmen were backing water frantically, trying to avoid a collision that could capsize them or stove their hull in. The old man had wrenched the rudder about, and the horse at the prow was swinging downstream, but too slowly. Glistening brown and black, the tree rushed toward them like a battering ram.

It could not have been more than ten feet from their prow when two of the boatmen somehow caught it with their long poles. One snapped, and the long splintering craaaack made it sound as if the ferry were breaking up beneath them. But the second man managed to give the trunk a hard shove, just enough to deflect it away from them. The tree swept past the ferry with inches to spare, its branches scrabbling like claws against the horsehead. Only just when it seemed as if they were clear, one of the monster’s upper limbs dealt them a glancing thump. The ferry seemed to shudder, and Arya slipped, landing painfully on one knee. The man with the broken pole was not so lucky. She heard him shout as he stumbled over the side. Then the raging brown water closed over him, and he was gone in the time it took Arya to climb back to her feet. One of the other boatmen snatched up a coil of rope, but there was no one to throw it to.

Arya’s boat was attacked by a huge and dark uprooted tree with reaching arms like a kraken. Later in Mercy chapter, we see that Bran is chasing Arya and trying to make contact while appearing as a tree in her dreams. We know that Bran had appeared like a tree in Jon’s dream.

This tree with its kraken-like arms gave a shoving to Arya’s boat and she had to bend painfully on one knee. Bending on one knee is a gesture done before kings and since Arya had to do that painfully, it means that a monarch will give her an order which she will not like but nonetheless, she will have to obey.

I think Theon will be sent to the Wall before the Battle on Ice and they will find their way to the Shadow Tower. However, the Weeper will attack the Shadow Tower before they arrive and this time he will be successful. The Weeper will capture them; kill Asha in single combat and blind Theon. After that, Theon will be more receptive to Bran’s guidance and I think Bran will use him as his messenger thereafter.

Therefore, the huge and dark uprooted tree (Bran) will have its kraken-like reaching arm (Theon).

I guess after Jon returns and restores the order at the Wall by killing the Weeper and gaining the wildlings to his side completely, Bran will tell Jon to leave Theon to him. Then, I think Bran will send Theon to Eastwatch to find a ship and fetch Arya back. If the foreshadowing is true, Arya will have to obey because Bran is her rightful king (bending on one knee painfully).

[Ser Creighton]

But a sudden shout snapped her head about before she could leap. The ferrymen were rushing forward, poles in hand. For a moment she did not understand what was happening. Then she saw it: an uprooted tree, huge and dark, coming straight at them. A tangle of roots and limbs poked up out of the water as it came, like the reaching arms of a great kraken. The oarsmen were backing water frantically, trying to avoid a collision that could capsize them or stove their hull in. The old man had wrenched the rudder about, and the horse at the prow was swinging downstream, but too slowly. Glistening brown and black, the tree rushed toward them like a battering ram.

It could not have been more than ten feet from their prow when two of the boatmen somehow caught it with their long poles. One snapped, and the long splintering craaaack made it sound as if the ferry were breaking up beneath them. But the second man managed to give the trunk a hard shove, just enough to deflect it away from them. The tree swept past the ferry with inches to spare, its branches scrabbling like claws against the horsehead. Only just when it seemed as if they were clear, one of the monsters upper limbs dealt them a glancing thump. The ferry seemed to shudder, and Arya slipped, landing painfully on one knee. The man with the broken pole was not so lucky. She heard him shout as he stumbled over the side. Then the raging brown water closed over him, and he was gone in the time it took Arya to climb back to her feet. One of the other boatmen snatched up a coil of rope, but there was no one to throw it to.

Aryas boat was attacked by a huge and dark uprooted tree with reaching arms like a kraken. Later in Mercy chapter, we see that Bran is chasing Arya and trying to make contact while appearing as a tree in her dreams. We know that Bran had appeared like a tree in Jons dream.

This tree with its kraken-like arms gave a shoving to Aryas boat and she had to bend painfully on one knee. Bending on one knee is a gesture done before kings and since Arya had to do that painfully, it means that a monarch will give her an order which she will not like but nonetheless, she will have to obey.

I think Theon will be sent to the Wall before the Battle on Ice and they will find their way to the Shadow Tower. However, the Weeper will attack the Shadow Tower before they arrive and this time he will be successful. The Weeper will capture them; kill Asha in single combat and blind Theon. After that, Theon will be more receptive to Brans guidance and I think Bran will use him as his messenger thereafter.

Therefore, the huge and dark uprooted tree (Bran) will have its kraken-like reaching arm (Theon).

I guess after Jon returns and restores the order at the Wall by killing the Weeper and gaining the wildlings to his side completely, Bran will tell Jon to leave Theon to him. Then, I think Bran will send Theon to Eastwatch to find a ship and fetch Arya back. If the foreshadowing is true, Arya will have to obey because Bran is her rightful king (bending on one knee painfully).

Or Euron hires a faceless man to kill someone and Arya is forced to bend the knee and take an order from him. He is currently a king and it is suspected he hired one before. Or it could just be part of the story. I don't remember the passage that well. Also Arya may be returning to Westeros and get attacked by the Iron Born while on ship. Though when it comes to foreshadowing I would suggest the foreshadowing in a POV chapter is probably central to that character and not another character. Liek Theon has plenty of his own foreshadowing, and Jon, and Bran and so on. And yeah they are intertwined, remember Bloodraven is also associated with trees and Euron Crows eye draws a very interesting parallel to him and of course he is a Kraken. But in this case you have a tree that looks like a Kraken, in the inverse you would have a Kraken that resembles a tree or in this case Euron resembling Bloodraven. Maybe, I don't know, things can be tough when making predictions based off foreshadowing.

ETA. The tree also glistens black like a blackwood :)

[Ser Creighton]

:devil: hehe "a flagon of water, cold as you can find it."

Drink from the cup of fire drink from the Cup of "Cough!" Jon, ummmm Ice, drink from the cup of ice.

[chrisdaw]

I used to think that but this is all very negative.

Looking at how Rhaenyra was brought down. If one or two were to wish to shape public perception to bring down a mad queen in similar fashion then having experienced a city riot, understanding the power in a well placed song, being able to move about the smallfolk spreading rumour and innuendo, being able to move about the mummers of the city and influence their content and perhaps even being able to impersonate a raving preacher, one who came from nowhere and supposedly just died when his work was done, would all be a very relevant set of skills and/or experiences.

And I forgot being able to murder people and have it appear like the work of others would also be very handy.

The first time Arya is in the room the dragons love her not, the second time they're like old friends, I think it will work out that way for Arya and Dany, first time Arya will work in opposition to Dany, second time in support.

[Veltigar]

So who's his Good Queen Alysanne? Val? Or (shudder) Sansa?

Daenerys.

attacks coming in 3...2...1 :p

[MoIaF]

Daenerys.

attacks coming in 3...2...1 :p

:devil: What's wrong with you, you can't blur out that kind of thing around here. :p

I have to say I see Dany more like Egg now, but with dragons. So, it would actually be the marriages of Jaehaerys and Egg which I think is even more awesome than J&A. :laugh:

[Veltigar]

:devil: What's wrong with you, you can't blur out that kind of thing around here. :P

I have to say I see Dany more like Egg now, but with dragons. So, it would actually be the marriages of Jaehaerys and Egg which I think is even more awesome than J&A. :laugh:

A Dany and Egg comparison is more than apt imo. I think a couple of pages back compared them and they did have a lot of similarities. Which is great since Egg accomplished much during his reign, but he could have been really great if he had actual dragons. Which Dany incidentally has :D

[MoIaF]

A Dany and Egg comparison is more than apt imo. I think a couple of pages back compared them and they did have a lot of similarities. Which is great since Egg accomplished much during his reign, but he could have been really great if he had actual dragons. Which Dany incidentally has :D

In all seriousness it would be a really good match. You have Dany who is revolutionarily include and you have Jon whose more diplomatically inclined. Their skills will be very useful both during and after the war. Me thinks.

[Lord Varys]

The 'civil war' in the Red Keep itself during the Regency (Aegon III & Viserys being besieged in Maegor's Holdfast by the Hand of the King, a member of their own Kingsguard) makes me really looking forward to the situation in KL following the discovery of the corpses of Ser Kevan and Pycelle...

[Veltigar]

The 'civil war' in the Red Keep itself during the Regency (Aegon III & Viserys being besieged in Maegor's Holdfast by the Hand of the King, a member of their own Kingsguard) makes me really looking forward to the situation in KL following the discovery of the corpses of Ser Kevan and Pycelle...

Hostile to say the least. But it won't explode yet. The Dornish need to arrive first and then there is the little matter of Cersei's trial. I think things will come to a violent clash after Margaery's trial.

[Lord Varys]

That remains to be seen. Cersei and Tommen reside in Maegor's, the Tyrells do not. That could be a hint. Tyene surely will arrive in the Great Sept, but whether Lady Nym will take her seat on the council remains to be seen. Will Mace even allow her to take it? And is there not a pretty big chance that they will stumble upon the GC on the way to KL?

[Tha Shiznit]

I'm not sure if this counts has history repeating itself, but the relationship between Aenys and Maegor are parallel of Joffrey and Tommen. All four Kings were born from incest and hailed from relatively new

dynast and both having a father ruling over the Seven Kingdoms. Aenys the elder brother was weak, amiable and well meaning, who was reign was plagued with rebellions across the realm. And was than succeeded by the younger, crueler and strong willed brother Maegor. The roles between Joffrey and Tommen are in reverse, with Joffrey being the elder, crueler and strong will brother. He to like Aenys was face with rebellion in his reign has king and later died of poison. Though Joffrey was more Maegor, his death was similar that of Aenys (If you believe in the rumor that he was poison by Visenya). Perhaps Tommen reign will be like that of Maegor, even though Tommen is more like Aenys, being amiable and well meaning.