[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The notion that Tyrion must be Aerys' bastard or GRRM is trolling is absurd. All of the new information adds a lot of depth to the characters of the people involved, and to their relationships with eachother without needing for Tyrion to be Aerys' son to be valid or make sense. The new information did not prove or disprove anything, and it is pretty arrogant to act as though GRRM is trolling you if the new information doesn't lead to the theory you believe being true.

Bravo, well done again. GRRM knows of this theory certainly, and in all likelihood wanted to keep it going, which does not equate to trolling whatsoever. The world book like you said, and like I’ve said added great depth and backstory to a period of time we all wondered about, but in no way whatsoever makes any conclusory revelations.

No, people aren't focusing on the new information in isolation. The old information that some consider hints or clues, not everybody considers hints or clues. The new information that some consider hints or clues, not everybody considers hints or clues. All of the information combined that some consider hints or clues, not everybody considers hints or clues. I get it, you do, and that is your prerogative. But it is arrogant to act as thought the only explanation is the one you believe to be true, or else GRRM is trolling. And Ran's quote doesn't whatsoever support the notion that Tyrion must be a bastard or GRRM is trolling. All he said is that George has seemingly added fuel to the fire in regard to the Tyrion theory. I am not saying that the things you interpret to be hints or clues aren't there and are just in your head. I just disagree that they are truly hints or clues that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. I am not trying to get you to believe other than what you already do. What I find arrogant and absurd is the idea that if it isn't true the way you want it to be, GRRM was just trolling.

Well done yet again. Supports of the theory have been using the world book as gospel to try and prove this theory. Its like the main books of the series do not exist. Additionally, I was finally able to track down Ran’s comment and I could not agree more. He indicates no support for this theory whatsoever, only that GRRM has add fuel to fires of debate for those who support the theory. However, Ran has stated that he does not believe it to be true.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Bravo, well done again. GRRM knows of this theory certainly, and in all likelihood wanted to keep it going, which does not equate to trolling whatsoever. The world book like you said, and like I’ve said added great depth and backstory to a period of time we all wondered about, but in no way whatsoever makes any conclusory revelations.

Well done yet again. Supports of the theory have been using the world book as gospel to try and prove this theory. Its like the main books of the series do not exist. Additionally, I was finally able to track down Ran’s comment and I could not agree more. He indicates no support for this theory whatsoever, only that GRRM has add fuel to fires of debate for those who support the theory. However, Ran has stated that he does not believe it to be true.

OTOH, many of us have supplied a TON of evidence from the 5 main books, which has been casually dismissed. But in the end, evidence can be a matter of opinion as well. For instance, the dreams TYrion has involving dragons. If Dany had them it would be because she is a Targaryen, same with Jon (ohhh so much so with Jon). But since people wish for A+J=T to not be true, they say Tyrions dreams of dragons are just a fluke, they mean nothing. Although it is 100% certain that the only characters in the books or the short stories who have dreams of dragons are in fact 'blood of the dragon' Targaryens. Ipso facto Tyrion is a Targ bastard, there really is no other answer for the dreams of dragons.

I have it all in my thread here http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94455-what-happened-to-make-aerys-lose-respect-for-tywin-around-270-275al/?p=4809081

So I mean, yeah the evidence is there, but if posters turn a blind eye to it because they don't like it, then no progress can be made, and I see more personal resistance to this theory than any other serious theory out there for some reason. (being one of the main advocates of it myself)

[Armstark]

No, the argument is that the world book reads as though Aerys raped Joanna in 272.

We know they weren't nine in 273, because they were born in 266. Oberyn would be one year out, or thereabouts. They were seven but he thought they were eight. Big deal.

Tywin did have guards in the Red Keep but it is a stretch to say the king couldn't have his way in the heart of his power.

Well, Tywin did try and resign but Aerys refused to let him go. He only did when he had security in the form of Jaime.

Think about the account of 272. Is Aerys reminding everyone Joanna used to be his mistress really enough for Tywin to resign? Lots of people presumably did know that anyway, and Aerys had insulted Tywin before. He'd even groped Joanna in a way he shouldn't have at the bedding ceremony. We also know Aerys was interested in her at the point, given the crude come on and we know Tywin tried to resign the next morning, implying the real reason for the resignation came after the 'insult.' It makes more sense of the account to suppose a rape there. That would fit with Tywin's own comment about not being able to prove Tyrion was his.

Tywin did indeed have guards in the Red Keep and his commander of guards was Ser Ilyn Payne who was conveniently silenced by Aerys. Supposedly because he boasted that Tywin was the real ruler of the 7K but who can say it was the real reason?

People keep focusing on the new information in isolation. If I considered only the new information, I would agree with you. It is the continued little hints that GRRM keeps putting in the text. Why would he continue to add more and more clues that point in the direction of A+J=T? They are not really red herrings because they do not serve as a distraction from the real solution to some mystery. They are beyond the point where it is just "wishful thinking" to make these connections. The "tidbits" (as STMT calls them) just keep piling up. You are suggesting they are just mere coincidence and people like me are misreading these pieces of text as clues when they are in the text for completely unrelated reasons that have nothing to do with hinting at A+J=T. You suggest they are just there for character color, and nothing more. They are not clues to anything?

Well, I have heard that argument for a long time, and prior to WoIaF I was not sure. Now I am. Go ahead and call me arrogant--but I just call them the way I see them. All of these clues, taken together, IMHO cannot plausibly just be coincidence and unintended by GRRM to say something about Tyrion being a Targ. Even Ran admits as much--and he is a co-author of the book. So your suggestion that I am just seeing clues where none are intended is implausible to me. So either show me how these clues can plausibly be a red herring for some other mystery or can plausibly be clues for something other than A+J=T, and I will revise my view. Until then, I am left with the alternatives that either GRRM is trolling us or A+J=T.

I still believe that Tyrion being a Targ is a red herring and serves as the cover up to Jaime&Cersei as Targs and Jaime becoming the GoldenHand (better known as Azor Ahai). Do you agree with me that J+A=T would be a good red herring to cover J+A= Cersei+Jaime?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin did indeed have guards in the Red Keep and his commander of guards was Ser Ilyn Payne who was conveniently silenced by Aerys. Supposedly because he boasted that Tywin was the real ruler of the 7K but who can say it was the real reason?

I still believe that Tyrion being a Targ is a red herring and serves as the cover up to Jaime&Cersei as Targs and Jaime becoming the GoldenHand (better known as Azor Ahai). Do you agree with me that J+A=T would be a good red herring to cover J+A= Cersei+Jaime?

No I dont, just the opposite in fact. IMO Jaime and Cersei would be too obvious of a choice, it's so much funnier if it is Tyrion, little drunken dwarf instead of the more obvious golden twins. If anything the red herring is the twins. Cersei's FFC chapters where she is ultra paranoid and obsessed with burning down parts of the Red keep, just like Aerys, and just in general being mad as a hatter just like Aerys. Those are the hints to throw us off the real track.

Plus WOIAF has all but confirmed that Joanna was not near Aerys during the conception of the twins. Plus Aerys was jealous of Tywin having the twins, but laughed and said Tywin got what he deserved with Tyrion. OHHHHH the sweet irony of the whole situation is almost unbearably funny.

[UnmaskedLurker]

He indicates no support for this theory whatsoever, only that GRRM has add fuel to fires of debate for those who support the theory. However, Ran has stated that he does not believe it to be true.

Not true. He says he is not a fan of the theory and hopes it is not true. He expressed NO view as to whether he, in fact, thought it would turn out to be true.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not true. He says he is not a fan of the theory and hopes it is not true. He expressed NO view as to whether he, in fact, thought it would turn out to be true.

Yeah he said he doesn't like the theory, but that WOIAF/GRRM specifically threw more flame on it, but basically extinguished all hopes of the twins being Aerys's kids.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

I won't go so far as to say that it's trolling exactly but there is something annoying to me if GRRM is putting all of these clues in for no reason other than to keep an ultimately pointless discussion going. I can't think for a moment why he'd do that. It seems so unnecessary. It's more likely to me that we're getting more and more information to support the theory because it's leading up to an eventual reveal. To me that seems like the most logical option for him making sure that those Joanna tidbits were included in TWOIAF.

I think what I find sort of arrogant is the declaration that it will automatically be "bad" or weak writing if Tyrion turns out not to be Tywin's son.

It's also very hard for me to understand how people can't at least acknowledge that Tywin raising a son that he has reason to suspect might not be his does indeed add complexity to the character of Tywin and the Tywin/Tyrion relationship; even more so if Tyrion's conception was due to rape when we consider something like the Tysha situation.

The Tywin/Tyrion relationship is complex no matter who Tyrion's biological father is so I totally disagree with the implication that the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic can only be complex and well written if Tyrion is simply Tywin's son. I feel like it adds so many layers to various decisions and behavior from both characters and there are a lot of little connections that work that go away and simply can't be filled by anything else if it turns out that Tyrion really is Tywin's son. The dynamic between the characters will always be complex but I think it becomes more so if the ATJ reveal is true.

But if Tyrion did not inherit them from Tywin but rather developed them by trying to be like Tywin--and became more like Tywin than Tywin's true-born children--now, to me, that is a more satisfying explanation than the one you seem to prefer.

I agree. Genna's comment is not invalidated if Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological child.

I also feel like there's something appropriate about Tywin being killed by the boy he allowed to live because he couldn't deal with the idea of people knowing the truth about whatever happened with Aerys and Joanna. I think it was combination of Tywin's pride and hatred of being laughed at in addition to love of Joanna and not knowing for sure that allowed him to let Tyrion live. Small point from the show I'm going to spoiler tag

Show Tywin admits that he wanted to throw Tyrion into the sea after he was born but he let him live because he's a Lannister. To me the implication here is that Tyrion's mother is the one who indirectly saved him. Joanna was a Lannister, Tywin loved her, so even though Tyrion is to Tywin "the lowest of the Lannisters" he's still a Lannister through his mother. Another point to take away from this scene is that Tywin clearly says that he was sucking it up and taking one for Team Lannister by doing this. Tywin ultimately saw this as protecting his family and his family legacy. To me it makes sense that he'd be protecting himself and by extension the family by not allowing the world to know that he'd had to suffer his wife being raped.

What these traits tell me is that rather than Aerys necessarily loving Joanna, she became a fixation because he couldn't have her. She was the one that got away.

Had he had her, given his fickle and flighty nature, he would have then lost interest in her, (another comparison that comes to mind is Edward IV who went through women like water).

I definitely think it's obvious that ATJ is going to turn out to be true, it's just the details that I haven't decided on.

For example, I'm still undecided as to whether or not the obsession Aerys had with Joanna was because she was the woman he couldn't have or because she was the woman that he liked being with most and he wanted to recapture the relationship again. Is it possible that Joanna could have been a "paramour" without actually having sex with Aerys? I'm thinking about most of the time Anne Boleyn spent as the King's favorite prior to their actual wedding. Could it have been a situation sort of like that? It seems unlikely but I agree that there's something about the attitude that Aerys had about her that makes me feel like he was obsessed because he couldn't have her until he (finally) forced the issue.

It seems to me the response to actual rape would have been rebellion, not resignation.

If Tywin really was more or less "ruled" by Joanna then couldn't she have been the one to plead with Tywin not to retaliate via rebellion but rather with resigning?

I'm also assuming that Tywin and Joanna had sex soon enough before the rape/"reconciliation" for the two of them to not know for sure.

More and more I just can't see that it was "reconciliation" sex between Aerys and Joanna. I was on the fence on this for awhile but I honestly think it makes more sense that what happened was rape. If they'd reconciled and wanted to start up an affair why wasn't Joanna keen on having Cersei paired with Rhaegar? It would have given her a new reason to be at court and I doubt Rhaella could have done much if she'd had any objections.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Tywin did indeed have guards in the Red Keep and his commander of guards was Ser Ilyn Payne who was conveniently silenced by Aerys. Supposedly because he boasted that Tywin was the real ruler of the 7K but who can say it was the real reason?

I still believe that Tyrion being a Targ is a red herring and serves as the cover up to Jaime&Cersei as Targs and Jaime becoming the GoldenHand (better known as Azor Ahai). Do you agree with me that J+A=T would be a good red herring to cover J+A= Cersei+Jaime?

No, for one reason, it is never suggested by any character. A red herring only serves to distract the reader if a lot of readers will see the red herring. I suspect if you asked random people who have read all five books (but have not visited the boards) whether Tyrion might have a different biological father than Tywin, you would likely get no more than 1-2% who would suggest they thought Aerys might be the real father. What kind of red herring is that? Only the hard core fans have accumulated the small clues over the course of 5 books (plus the new World book) to come to this conclusion. Red herrings are not meant just for the tiny fraction of readers who pick up on them. Think about other red herrings--like Wylla. We have a character (e.g., Robert) state that Wylla is Jon's mother. That is how a red herring works. Someone in the story suggests it or the text strongly points in that direction in a way that most readers will pick up on it. A+J=T clues just have not been the sort of clues you expect for a red herring.

Also consider that Ran thinks that WoIaF made A+J=C+J pretty much impossible because Joanna left KL three years before the twins were born and only "seldom" visited thereafter. One of those seldom visits we know was the year prior to Tyrion's birth. While possible, there is no suggestion she visited shortly prior to the twin's birth and strong implication that she did not.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think it was combination of Tywin's pride and hatred of being laughed at in addition to love of Joanna and not knowing for sure that allowed him to let Tyrion live.

:agree: Well said. For a long time I have heard the argument that if Tywin thought Tyrion was not his, Tyion would be dead. This sentence sums up the answer to that objection. Really, quite well said.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I won't go so far as to say that it's trolling exactly but there is something annoying to me if GRRM is putting all of these clues in for no reason other than to keep an ultimately pointless discussion going. I can't think for a moment why he'd do that. It seems so unnecessary. It's more likely to me that we're getting more and more information to support the theory because it's leading up to an eventual reveal. To me that seems like the most logical option for him making sure that those Joanna tidbits were included in TWOIAF.

I think what I find sort of arrogant is the declaration that it will automatically be "bad" or weak writing if Tyrion turns out not to be Tywin's son.

It's also very hard for me to understand how people can't at least acknowledge that Tywin raising a son that he has reason to suspect might not be his does indeed add complexity to the character of Tywin and the Tywin/Tyrion relationship; even more so if Tyrion's conception was due to rape when we consider something like the Tysha situation.

The Tywin/Tyrion relationship is complex no matter who Tyrion's biological father is so I totally disagree with the implication that the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic can only be complex and well written if Tyrion is simply Tywin's son. I feel like it adds so many layers to various decisions and behavior from both characters and there are a lot of little connections that work that go away and simply can't be filled by anything else if it turns out that Tyrion really is Tywin's son. The dynamic between the characters will always be complex but I think it becomes more so if the ATJ reveal is true.

I agree. Genna's comment is not invalidated if Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological child.

I also feel like there's something appropriate about Tywin being killed by the boy he allowed to live because he couldn't deal with the idea of people knowing the truth about whatever happened with Aerys and Joanna. I think it was combination of Tywin's pride and hatred of being laughed at in addition to love of Joanna and not knowing for sure that allowed him to let Tyrion live. Small point from the show I'm going to spoiler tag

Show Tywin admits that he wanted to throw Tyrion into the sea after he was born but he let him live because he's a Lannister. To me the implication here is that Tyrion's mother is the one who indirectly saved him. Joanna was a Lannister, Tywin loved her, so even though Tyrion is to Tywin "the lowest of the Lannisters" he's still a Lannister through his mother. Another point to take away from this scene is that Tywin clearly says that he was sucking it up and taking one for Team Lannister by doing this. Tywin ultimately saw this as protecting his family and his family legacy. To me it makes sense that he'd be protecting himself and by extension the family by not allowing the world to know that he'd had to suffer his wife being raped.

I definitely think it's obvious that ATJ is going to turn out to be true, it's just the details that I haven't decided on.

So agree with all the bolded!! Excellent post :)

Lets break this down for a second. We know that 'the Lannisters' and 'the family name' is THE MOST important thing to Tywin, even more important than the happiness or well-being of any of his children. Look how easily he dismisses Jaime,when Jaime tells him 'no' one time.

Now look at what Tywin did to Tyrion and Tysha, is there any excuse under the sun for this kind of treatment to your own son? Especially when (we find out later) than Tywin does keep whores and sleep with them, and is, in fact, not opposed to them like he pretends? I would say that with Craster as the exception there is no worse treatment in any of the books from father to son (although some would argue death is better than what happened to Tyrion and Tysha). So what is the reasoning behind this? Why would Tywin do this to Tyrion? Maybe vengeance for being fathered by Aerys and turning his beloved Joanna into a 'whore'? Tywin does show this kind of ruthlessness when making plans for the Red Wedding, but to turn it on your own son....for no real reason except to 'teach a lesson'........I cannot imagine anyone doing that. There must be more to it. Plus if Tywin is so knowledgeable about his children's fornications, how did the fact that his twins have been boning each other their entire lives escape him? He seems so interested in Tyrions sex life, why not the twins? Who, lets face it, are doing something a lot worse than sleeping with a whore, yet they get a pass or a casual overlook while Tyrion is made to watch his new wife be raped 20 times? No No NO, these actions to not add up. Tywin does have a personal vendetta against Tyrion because of Aerys, it makes perfect sense now.......

[Mithras]

I won't go so far as to say that it's trolling exactly but there is something annoying to me if GRRM is putting all of these clues in for no reason other than to keep an ultimately pointless discussion going. I can't think for a moment why he'd do that. It seems so unnecessary. It's more likely to me that we're getting more and more information to support the theory because it's leading up to an eventual reveal. To me that seems like the most logical option for him making sure that those Joanna tidbits were included in TWOIAF.

Ever heard of red herrings? George is known to make use of them.

[Alia of the knife]

"Before long I'll be dead, and you and your brother and your sister and all of her children, all of us dead, all of us rotting in the ground. It's the family name that lives on. That's all that lives on. Not your personal glory, not your honor... but family."

―Lord Tywin Lannister to Ser Jaime Lannister

[Chaircat Meow]

No No NO, these actions to not add up. Tywin does have a personal vendetta against Tyrion because of Aerys, it makes perfect sense now.......

This is one of the reasons I'm so persuaded that Aerys raped Joanna. The Tysha incident, as well as Tywin's order to Gregor and Amory wrt Elia and Rhaenys, make so much more sense if he's trying to wash out the shame of his wife's rape.

I have been thinking about whether Joanna had an affair with Aerys in 259-264 a bit. It is actually plausible she didn't, as mezmerised and Alia have suggested. Aerys's fascination for her could really be due to her continued refusal of him. The rumours would be spread by an angry and spiteful Aerys. This arguably fits a bit better with Aerys's behaviour at the bedding. The reason this is plausible is the source. We think Pycelle is pro-Tywin from conviction. He was already Grand Maester when he sat on the small council with Tywin, so he wasn't sucking up to him for promotion. The letters Yandell cites are also presumably private dispatches to the Citadel, so there is not much reason to assume Pycelle doctored them to appeal to Tywin. In that context denying the affair on silly grounds, if he knew it was true, makes little sense. Joanna not having the affair would also explain why the Queen did not dismiss her. Her eventual dismissal, after the marriage, could be due to the fact Aerys became even more interested in her after her marriage and so the Queen gave her cover to leave the city.

[Armstark]

No, for one reason, it is never suggested by any character. A red herring only serves to distract the reader if a lot of readers will see the red herring. I suspect if you asked random people who have read all five books (but have not visited the boards) whether Tyrion might have a different biological father than Tywin, you would likely get no more than 1-2% who would suggest they thought Aerys might be the real father. What kind of red herring is that? Only the hard core fans have accumulated the small clues over the course of 5 books (plus the new World book) to come to this conclusion. Red herrings are not meant just for the tiny fraction of readers who pick up on them. Think about other red herrings--like Wylla. We have a character (e.g., Robert) state that Wylla is Jon's mother. That is how a red herring works. Someone in the story suggests it or the text strongly points in that direction in a way that most readers will pick up on it. A+J=T clues just have not been the sort of clues you expect for a red herring.

It is suggested the very first time we meet Tyrion by Tyrion himself that he might be a bastard or at least that his father thinks he is one. It is one of the first things we learn about Tyrion. You are right insofar that we have no clue about the possible father until much later but the notion that he might have a different biological father is there right from the very beginning. I think you are severely underestimating readers when you think only 1-2% picked up on that.

Also consider that Ran thinks that WoIaF made A+J=C+J pretty much impossible because Joanna left KL three years before the twins were born and only "seldom" visited thereafter. One of those seldom visits we know was the year prior to Tyrion's birth. While possible, there is no suggestion she visited shortly prior to the twin's birth and strong implication that she did not.

Fair point but you have to remember who this history book was written for: Robert/Tommen. If Maester Yandel so much as hinted at Cersei being a bastard it could have cost him his head.

Nevertheless I found the wording of one passage curious: (but it might just be because I am no native speaker)

“The gods will not suffer a bastard to sit the Iron Throne,” he told his small council; [...]

What Tywin Lannister made of this is not recorded, but in 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy

[UnmaskedLurker]

It is suggested the very first time we meet Tyrion by Tyrion himself that he might be a bastard or at least that his father thinks he is one. It is one of the first things we learn about Tyrion. You are right insofar that we have no clue about the possible father until much later but the notion that he might have a different biological father is there right from the very beginning. I think you are severely underestimating readers when you think only 1-2% picked up on that.

Fair point but you have to remember who this history book was written for: Robert/Tommen. If Maester Yandel so much as hinted at Cersei being a bastard it could have cost him his head.

Nevertheless I found the wording of one passage curious: (but it might just be because I am no native speaker)

“The gods will not suffer a bastard to sit the Iron Throne,” he told his small council; [...]

What Tywin Lannister made of this is not recorded, but in 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy

Come on--all he says is that any dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes. He never actually suggests he is a bastard in a way that more than a small number of readers would understand as a real possibility. When you hear of red herrings for R+L=J, people talk about Ashara or Wylla or the fisherwoman. All of these were mentioned explicitly by someone as a possible mother. No one ever states that they think Tywin might not be the real father of Tyrion--no one. If these clues were meant as a red herring for A+J=C+J, it would be stated more clearly.

And more important, both theories can be true. A red herring is typically an alternative explanation. If Wylla or Ashara is the mother, then Lyanna is not. That is why they serve as red herrings. If you think gee, is it Ashara or Wylla, you won't consider Lyanna because the first excludes the second. But just because A+J=T does not mean A+J=/=C+J. In fact, I have seen people speculate that both are true. So again, it does not work as a red herring.

[Chaircat Meow]

Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys’s Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. “He was not the same man after she died, Imp,” his Uncle Gery told him once. “The best part of him died with her.” Gerion had been the youngest of Lord Tytos Lannister’s four sons, and the uncle Tyrion liked best.

The love between them.

Also, it is uncles plural who say that. And we know Tygett and Gerion were not necessarily Tywin's biggest fans, so no reason to suppose this is lannister propaganda as some have suggested.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Also, it is uncles plural who say that. And we know Tygett and Gerion were not necessarily Tywin's biggest fans, so no reason to suppose this is lannister propaganda as some have suggested.

Well I agree he did love her, from 263 to 272 they were happy,. in love, had beautiful twin babies. No reason to be unhappy. But all that changed after the 272 tourney.

[Armstark]

Come on--all he says is that any dwarf is a bastard in his father's eyes. He never actually suggests he is a bastard in a way that more than a small number of readers would understand as a real possibility. When you hear of red herrings for R+L=J, people talk about Ashara or Wylla or the fisherwoman. All of these were mentioned explicitly by someone as a possible mother. No one ever states that they think Tywin might not be the real father of Tyrion--no one. If these clues were meant as a red herring for A+J=C+J, it would be stated more clearly.

The bolded part is simply false. It is stated explicitly by Tywin Lannister himself.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The bolded part is simply false. It is stated explicitly by Tywin Lannister himself.

Only stated as insults -- not as something that would be understood by a typical reader as genuine speculation, which is what I meant.

[mezmerised]

This is one of the reasons I'm so persuaded that Aerys raped Joanna. The Tysha incident, as well as Tywin's order to Gregor and Amory wrt Elia and Rhaenys, make so much more sense if he's trying to wash out the shame of his wife's rape.

I have been thinking about whether Joanna had an affair with Aerys in 259-264 a bit. It is actually plausible she didn't, as mezmerised and Alia have suggested. Aerys's fascination for her could really be due to her continued refusal of him. The rumours would be spread by an angry and spiteful Aerys. This arguably fits a bit better with Aerys's behaviour at the bedding. The reason this is plausible is the source. We think Pycelle is pro-Tywin from conviction. He was already Grand Maester when he sat on the small council with Tywin, so he wasn't sucking up to him for promotion. The letters Yandell cites are also presumably private dispatches to the Citadel, so there is not much reason to assume Pycelle doctored them to appeal to Tywin. In that context denying the affair on silly grounds, if he knew it was true, makes little sense. Joanna not having the affair would also explain why the Queen did not dismiss her. Her eventual dismissal, after the marriage, could be due to the fact Aerys became even more interested in her after her marriage and so the Queen gave her cover to leave the city.

Well all I can say is I agree and that I'll keep reading your posts on Aerys/Joanna because it helps me put my jumbled thoughts into a more coherent theory ;)

Mainly this would help make sense of Joanna as an actual person (instead of a trophy for Aerys and Tywin to fight over) who both had to live with the restrictions that all highborn girls face so she can't just begin an affair with the crown prince because she feels like it but also was capable of making intelligent decisions so she wont have affairs with unavailable men in the interest of her own personal well-being.

It would also help to turn Rhaella into a more well-rounded character than just a wife who takes out her anger about her cheating husband on other women who may not even have had the chance to say no due to obvious imbalance of power between them and the King.

Not getting what he wanted from Joanna would also make Aerys' continued obsession with her more likely, especially because we know that he usually lost interest quickly.

And it would explain how Tywin, a man who hates slights, could keep having a working relationship with Aerys (at least until 272/3).

Agree as well about your interpretation of Pycelle's letters to Yandel

And finally maybe we can conclude that Barristan was possibly on KG duty that night in 272 and suspects that Aerys raped Joanna so what he told Dany was already the sugarcoated version since he didn't mention his suspicion but it would explain why he describes Aerys lusting after Joanna in such harsh terms.