[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[The Sleeper]

What is essentially certainly true from WoIaF is that Joanna came to KL for the 10-year anniversary celebration in 272 AC--the year prior to the birth of Tyrion. That was a public gathering--so no interpretation issue with respect to that fact. So GRRM seems to have intentionally told the readers of a window in which Aerys and Joanna were in the same place and could have been the date of conception of Tyrion. Why does GRRM do this if not to be a clue? Sure it does not "prove" anything--but it is a pointless clue if it does not really mean A+J=T. We also have pretty good confirmation in WoIaF that Aerys and Joanna were lovers prior to when she was dismissed as lady-in-waiting to Rhaella.

As to your objection that Aerys could not get to Joanna at that time--nonsense. If Aerys sends his guards to get Joanna and bring her to his bed, Tywin cannot--and would not--stop this (for the same reason he stays as hand--his life is at risk if he disobeys the king). Tywin obviously thought he had more influence over Aerys than was realistic if Tywin really thought he could get Tywin to marry Rhaegar to Cersei. But I don't see how that has anything to do with A+J=T.

Starting fromthe premise that Tyrion is Aerys' son. I understand why could see it that way. It is the process of finding evidence for a foregone conclusion, which is the reverse way of making an argument. Without said foregone conclusion, what we have is a possible window of opportunity and Aerys desire for Joanna. By that reasoning every child born after a year or so its mother had been at court and had caught Aerys' eye is as likely as Tyrion to be his offspring.

The account of Aerys' reign is largely the account of the deterioration of Tywin's and Aerys' relationship. Resentment and jealousy over Joanna is one of the reasons that led to their eventual enmity. As for the feasibility of Aerys' having his way with Joanna, it exixtx , but it is far harder than you suggest. As seen from ASoIaF everyone and his mother in court, has spies, thugs and guards in his employ, let alone the sway someone like Tywin would have.

It seems obvious to me that this account is very fragmentary. Great lords have rebelled for far less than the shit Aerys' put Tywin through, without adding a potential affair or rape of his wife, whom according to all other accounts he cared deeply for. Yet he persisted at this cold war with Aerys for years to come with expectations to land Cersei on the throne with Aerys' blessing no less. A lot was going on that we don't know about.

[Chaircat Meow]

I haven't read the entire thread but I'm guessing that the premise is that the timeline makes it possible for Aerys to have been Tyrion's father.

No, the argument is that the world book reads as though Aerys raped Joanna in 272.

That is not entirely the case. For one thing Oberyn mentioned Jaime and Cersei to have been eight or nine when he and Elia visited Casterly Rock and the twins were six when Joanna visited King's Landing. It is within the margin of error but just barely.

We know they weren't nine in 273, because they were born in 266. Oberyn would be one year out, or thereabouts. They were seven but he thought they were eight. Big deal.

There is also the fact that having sex with the Lady of Casterly Rock, consensual or not, even in the Red Keep is no simple proposition, especially when Tywin is the Hand of the King, for close to ten years at that point. Joanna would have a retinue and guards around her at all times and Tywin would certainly have his own men in the Keep.

Tywin did have guards in the Red Keep but it is a stretch to say the king couldn't have his way in the heart of his power.

There are many things that don't add up in the account of the on going relationship of Tywin and Aerys. According to the book Tywin took a lot of shit from Aerys. For any of the other high lords in the realm this would have been far too much to remain the Hand and at least nominally loyal. And yet in later years Tywin felt confident enough to propose Cersei for Rhaegar and even later to bring her to the Red Keep. There is also the fact that the narration comes largely from Pycelle who is hardly unbiased. There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we are missing.

Well, Tywin did try and resign but Aerys refused to let him go. He only did when he had security in the form of Jaime.

Think about the account of 272. Is Aerys reminding everyone Joanna used to be his mistress really enough for Tywin to resign? Lots of people presumably did know that anyway, and Aerys had insulted Tywin before. He'd even groped Joanna in a way he shouldn't have at the bedding ceremony. We also know Aerys was interested in her at the point, given the crude come on and we know Tywin tried to resign the next morning, implying the real reason for the resignation came after the 'insult.' It makes more sense of the account to suppose a rape there. That would fit with Tywin's own comment about not being able to prove Tyrion was his.

[The Sleeper]

No, the argument is that the world book reads as though Aerys raped Joanna in 272.We know they weren't nine in 273, because they were born in 266. Oberyn would be one year out, or thereabouts. They were seven but he thought they were eight. Big deal.Tywin did have guards in the Red Keep but it is a stretch to say the king couldn't have his way in the heart of his power.Well, Tywin did try and resign but Aerys refused to let him go. He only did when he had security in the form of Jaime.Think about the account of 272. Is Aerys reminding everyone Joanna used to be his mistress really enough for Tywin to resign? Lots of people presumably did know that anyway, and Aerys had insulted Tywin before. He'd even groped Joanna in a way he shouldn't have at the bedding ceremony. We also know Aerys was interested in her at the point, given the crude come on and we know Tywin tried to resign the next morning, implying the real reason for the resignation came after the 'insult.' It makes more sense of the account to suppose a rape there. That would fit with Tywin's own comment about not being able to prove Tyrion was his.

We have Aerys expressing desire, making (grossly) inappropriate comments an taking liberties during the wedding. That does not amount to rape. They are plenty enough to warrant the "threat" of resignation without adding rape to it. It seems to me the response to actual rape would have been rebellion, not resignation.

As for refusing the resignation, I don't buy it. Aerys can't just keep Tywin as hand against his will. He'd have to keep him forcibly to the

Red Keep and that would have been a messy affair. The assumption has been made that are in the Red Keep would be under Aerys' power. This is not the case or at least not entirely, for both Tywin and Joanna. I suppose it is possible, but it is difficult enough to make the whole notion problematic for Aerys to either rape Joanna and get away with it, or to force Tywin to remain as Hand. Ned had thirty guards at his disposal and it still took a small battle. Tywin was considerably better connected at the Red Keep. I'd sooner believe that Tywin could visit violence on Aerys in the Red Keep rather than the other way around.

That said I do not discount the possibility entirely, as Varys and the tunnels make many things possible. I see no scenario, however, in which Tywin knew about it

[Chaircat Meow]

We have Aerys expressing desire, making (grossly) inappropriate comments an taking liberties during the wedding. That does not amount to rape. They are plenty enough to warrant the "threat" of resignation without adding rape to it. It seems to me the response to actual rape would have been rebellion, not resignation.

I'm a bit confused as to the argument here. I said the clues we have in the passage point towards a rape. I've never made the silly claim that inappropriate comments are the same as a rape have I?

I am not sure Aerys's crude come on, and his reminder to the court Joanna was his mistress really is enough to warrant a resignation though. It is possible perhaps, but we know Aerys had groped her inappropriately before and Tywin had not resigned. So I would certainly not take it as given that what we hear on page is a good explanation for why Tywin tried to resign. The fact Tywin tried to resign, not then and there, but the next morning further suggests something else happened.

Moreover, Tywin didn't threaten to resign, he actually tried to return his chain of office, in other words he tried to resign but Aerys refused to accept his resignation. We hear later that Aerys was indeed set on not allowing Tywin to resign. If it really did come to a battle in the Red Keep I'm sure the lannisters would have lost.

[The Sleeper]

I'm a bit confused as to the argument here. I said the clues we have in the passage point towards a rape. I've never made the silly claim that inappropriate comments are the same as a rape have I?I am not sure Aerys's crude come on, and his reminder to the court Joanna was his mistress really is enough to warrant a resignation though. It is possible perhaps, but we know Aerys had groped her inappropriately before and Tywin had not resigned. So I would certainly not take it as given that what we hear on page is a good explanation for why Tywin tried to resign. The fact Tywin tried to resign, not then and there, but the next morning further suggests something else happened.Moreover, Tywin didn't threaten to resign, he actually tried to return his chain of office, in other words he tried to resign but Aerys refused to accept his resignation. We hear later that Aerys was indeed set on not allowing Tywin to resign. If it really did come to a battle in the Red Keep I'm sure the lannisters would have lost.

Perhaps, I phrased it wrong. I meant to say that I don't see it as proof that anything beyond that happened. It is also a matter of context. The bedding is a custom during which the are supposed to behave bawdily and going too far can be overlooked as part of the festivities and drunkenness. Still, I seems that Tywin at least made a point to keep Joanna away from Aerys. The comment about her breasts came years later, when their Tywin's and Aerys relationships had already soured and in different circumstances.

As for trying to resign, I don't see how that works. You either resign or you don't. Tywin is not a peasant to be held in doing something against his will. He either was not prepared to go too far, or was working another angle. If he really wanted to make a break with Aerys at that point he would have. Therefore the aborted resignation was a show to save face to a certain degree.

Frankly, given Aerys' personality and conduct, I am very sceptical of Joanna ever having been his mistress. For one it sounds like the thing, he would have been almost unable to keep his mouth shut about and would gloat to Tywin at every available opportunity. Second Barry would have known about it. Aerys was hardly discreet. Third the maester makes too much about the whole notion. He parrots Pycelle and the way he covers Elia's death speaks very badly about his impartiality. It seems to me that Aerys' conduct towards Joanna is more of an indication of Aerys inability to comprt himself in any dignified fashion and of

Tywin's and Aerys' gradually deteriorating relationship, rather than than the main reason for it, though it certainly played its part.

[Chaircat Meow]

Perhaps, I phrased it wrong. I meant to say that I don't see it as proof that anything beyond that happened. It is also a matter of context. The bedding is a custom during which the are supposed to behave bawdily and going too far can be overlooked as part of the festivities and drunkenness.

But it wasn't overlooked though. Barristan thinks Aerys behaved improperly and Tywin was angry. And if all Aerys did in 272 was remind everyone he and Joanna had an affair, and made a crude come on, he really didn't go as far as he did at the bedding, did he?

Still, I seems that Tywin at least made a point to keep Joanna away from Aerys. The comment about her breasts came years later, when their Tywin's and Aerys relationships had already soured and in different circumstances.

Or Joanna herself wanted to stay away.

As for trying to resign, I don't see how that works. You either resign or you don't. Tywin is not a peasant to be held in doing something against his will. He either was not prepared to go too far, or was working another angle. If he really wanted to make a break with Aerys at that point he would have. Therefore the aborted resignation was a show to save face to a certain degree.

Well that's what we're told. Tywin tried to resign and Aerys said no. I'm not understanding what the problem is with this. Later we are actually told Aerys would not allow Tywin to go because he feared if he did Tywin would kill him/work against him. He only agreed to a request to resign because he had Jaime.

Frankly, given Aerys' personality and conduct, I am very sceptical of Joanna ever having been his mistress. For one it sounds like the thing, he would have been almost unable to keep his mouth shut about and would gloat to Tywin at every available opportunity.

Who says he didn't.

Second Barry would have known about it. Aerys was hardly discreet.

Barry very obviously does know more than he lets on, otherwise he would not keep raising the issue of Aerys and Joanna. Comments at a bedding are not enough to indicate Aerys had a particular infatuation for Joanna given we know he had lots of other mistresses.

Third the maester makes too much about the whole notion. He parrots Pycelle and the way he covers Elia's death speaks very badly about his impartiality. It seems to me that Aerys' conduct towards Joanna is more of an indication of Aerys inability to comprt himself in any dignified fashion and of

Tywin's and Aerys' gradually deteriorating relationship, rather than than the main reason for it, though it certainly played its part.

Yes, it is embarrassing for House Lannister that Lady Joanna was effectively a fallen disgraced women. It was obviously a blow to lord Tywin's pride that he had someone else's leavings. That fits the pattern of bias in the text.

[ellstaysia]

I personally believe that tyrion is aerys' son. I love the parallel of jamie & tyrion killing each other's fathers. I think tywin is way too proud, & that's why he raised tyrion. it would have been such a huge blow to house lannister & tywin's ego & reputation if westeros knew tyrion wasn't his, which is why he chose not to deal with it directly. sure, he had suspicions, but since, as he says "I can't prove you're not mine", he chose to let the issue fade away. tywin strikes me as someone who is good at blocking things out, & burying his emotions. just like when the rumours about his incestuous golden twins went around. he wouldn't deal with it.
I don't believe it cheapens the story either, because seriously, no one outside of internet forums is suspecting that tyrion isn't a lannister. there's also so much parallel between him, jon & dany now that can't be ignored as coincidence.

[UnmaskedLurker]

You are right on the money. The tidbits added by the world book do not cut into the mountain of evidence against this theory provided by the text of the main books.

Bingo, points I have made time and again. This theory is simply too thin to have any real merit. It all comes down to pigeonholing unrealistic/highly unlikely scenarios into the text to make it seem plausible.

I really don't know why you keep insisting that the evidence is thin. Ran (co-author of WoIaF), who does not particularly like A+J=T, admits that GRRM added fuel to the fire of AJT, suggesting the evidence is not thin. I have read numerous other posters who hope the theory is not true admit the evidence is not thin. The theory might not be true. I cannot be 100% certain. But the evidence is not thin. GRRM has been planting "tidbits" (as you call them) since GoT regarding Tyrion's Targ connections (dragon dreams, shadow of a king, etc.). Of course each clue separately can have an alternative explanation--that is how GRRM writes these clues--but the clues are not thin. And there not only is not a "mountain of evidence" against the theory--there really is NO evidence against this theory. There are personal preferences that the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion not be "spoiled" by finding out Aerys is the bio-dad.

But Aerys had means, motive and opportunity to father Tyrion--it is right there in the text. Tyrion has close parallels to Dany (a Targ) and Jon (a Targ if R+L=J). Tyrion has certain apparent Targ traits (such as pale blond hair (Lannisters--including Tommen after he gets older--all have golden blond hair), mismatched eyes (only two other characters seem to have this and one was a Targ bastard), deformity (Aerys's stillborn children had deformities)). So while each of these clues individually might mean nothing, taken together, they are more than "thin". Further, what more would you expect GRRM to do? He is NOT going to give clearer clues because he wants it to remain a mystery. But the evidence that exists did not get there by accident. Either GRRM is trolling his most loyal readers or these clues mean something. If they don't mean A+J=T, then I cannot imagine what they mean.

[Bael's Bastard]

The notion that Tyrion must be Aerys' bastard or GRRM is trolling is absurd. All of the new information adds a lot of depth to the characters of the people involved, and to their relationships with eachother without needing for Tyrion to be Aerys' son to be valid or make sense. The new information did not prove or disprove anything, and it is pretty arrogant to act as though GRRM is trolling you if the new information doesn't lead to the theory you believe being true.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The notion that Tyrion must be Aerys' bastard or GRRM is trolling is absurd. All of the new information adds a lot of depth to the characters of the people involved, and to their relationships with eachother without needing for Tyrion to be Aerys' son to be valid or make sense. The new information did not prove or disprove anything, and it is pretty arrogant to act as though GRRM is trolling you if the new information doesn't lead to the theory you believe being true.

People keep focusing on the new information in isolation. If I considered only the new information, I would agree with you. It is the continued little hints that GRRM keeps putting in the text. Why would he continue to add more and more clues that point in the direction of A+J=T? They are not really red herrings because they do not serve as a distraction from the real solution to some mystery. They are beyond the point where it is just "wishful thinking" to make these connections. The "tidbits" (as STMT calls them) just keep piling up. You are suggesting they are just mere coincidence and people like me are misreading these pieces of text as clues when they are in the text for completely unrelated reasons that have nothing to do with hinting at A+J=T. You suggest they are just there for character color, and nothing more. They are not clues to anything?

Well, I have heard that argument for a long time, and prior to WoIaF I was not sure. Now I am. Go ahead and call me arrogant--but I just call them the way I see them. All of these clues, taken together, IMHO cannot plausibly just be coincidence and unintended by GRRM to say something about Tyrion being a Targ. Even Ran admits as much--and he is a co-author of the book. So your suggestion that I am just seeing clues where none are intended is implausible to me. So either show me how these clues can plausibly be a red herring for some other mystery or can plausibly be clues for something other than A+J=T, and I will revise my view. Until then, I am left with the alternatives that either GRRM is trolling us or A+J=T.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The notion that Tyrion must be Aerys' bastard or GRRM is trolling is absurd. All of the new information adds a lot of depth to the characters of the people involved, and to their relationships with eachother without needing for Tyrion to be Aerys' son to be valid or make sense. The new information did not prove or disprove anything, and it is pretty arrogant to act as though GRRM is trolling you if the new information doesn't lead to the theory you believe being true.

Well I dont think that. I just think the author has been dropping hints since the first Tyrion chapter in GOT, and could have put an end to it with WOIAF, but instead, made it more plausible than ever.

Just think of it from our pov, we already thought this was true, one of the biggest arguments against was that we dont know where they were at time of conception. Well now we know they were in the same place, had a confirmed affair, and some sort of incident at the 10 year anniversary. So , I mean, it is pretty natural for us to be inflamed at this point, thinking we were right all along.

The main thing is that there is hardly any evidence to crush this theory besides, 'what would be the plot point?' or 'It will ruin the dynamic between Tywin and Tyrion."......But let's be honest, those are both completely subjective points and a total matter of opinion, so those are not good arguments.

If someone wants to really make a counter-argument then look up some facts which make it impossible, instead of acting like we are all authors able to fathom everything GRRM has in store for us. (I would never presume to know so much about what he has not published yet)--not saying you are either, just a general comment.

[Bael's Bastard]

No, people aren't focusing on the new information in isolation. The old information that some consider hints or clues, not everybody considers hints or clues. The new information that some consider hints or clues, not everybody considers hints or clues. All of the information combined that some consider hints or clues, not everybody considers hints or clues. I get it, you do, and that is your prerogative. But it is arrogant to act as thought the only explanation is the one you believe to be true, or else GRRM is trolling. And Ran's quote doesn't whatsoever support the notion that Tyrion must be a bastard or GRRM is trolling. All he said is that George has seemingly added fuel to the fire in regard to the Tyrion theory. I am not saying that the things you interpret to be hints or clues aren't there and are just in your head. I just disagree that they are truly hints or clues that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard. I am not trying to get you to believe other than what you already do. What I find arrogant and absurd is the idea that if it isn't true the way you want it to be, GRRM was just trolling.

[Alia of the knife]

I think for me, (and again, my perception), is that the new information enhances the full overview of Aery's mercurial personality.

Someone had made the comparison of not only Maegor the Cruel and Henry VIII, but Aerys as well with the hyper energy of his youth, the ever-changing notions and grand ideas, but more importantly the vanity and vindictiveness as well as the charm as Selmy notes.

What these traits tell me is that rather than Aerys necessarily loving Joanna, she became a fixation because he couldn't have her. She was the one that got away.

Had he had her, given his fickle and flighty nature, he would have then lost interest in her, (another comparison that comes to mind is Edward IV who went through women like water).

And everything we know about Tywin from the book is that he was sensitive to anything that would damage his pride, so while he might have known of Aerys interest in his wife, but yet Tywin never acted, (or overreacted), that says to me that he was confident in Joannas love for him and not threatened by Aerys obnoxious behavior other than for it to be awkward and annoying.

(Also, we see at his death, Tywin may have been the hypocrite as well, taking whores as much as Aerys took mistresses).

To me, Tywin and Aerys were competing with each other, and again, what we know of Tywin is that Aerys might be lucky that it wasn't Tywin who had his way with Rhaella, (AND I AM JOKING ABOUT THAT).

But my point is is that Tywin became everything that Aerys was not, and that was the source of their friction.

The roles of Tyrion, Dany, Jon and even Bran are that they are they least likely to be thought of to bring order out of chaos.

Dany, a woman, is picking up the torch that both her brothers, and father dropped. Aerys and Viserys because they were mad, and Rhaegar possibly because at the last moment, he simply fell short.

Jon, a bastard of the north who becomes the unlikely leader to put it all back together.

Tyrion, a dwarf and a shameful reflection upon Tywins "perfection," is reviled of his House, (with the exception of Jaime), and of the kingdom. Tyrion was the one who was trying to bring some sense of justice and order to the kingdom, but even the fickle people refused to look past the "monster imp," and instead blamed him for all the chaos that his beautiful sister and nephew were creating, (the small folk love a "rock star", they don't like "ugly").

The theme of "cripples, bastards and broken things" is a nod to the theme of the beauty and the beast, (which GRRM was involved with original show), and the corruption and rot that can lay beneath a beautiful exterior, (not all of course), or the beauty that lay within a broken, "ugly" thing, and the fact that Tyrion is more of a man and "lion" than his beautiful brother, nephew, and all the corrupt courtiers put together.

I think the book itself is likely a nod to the true history of the past and how it is the victors who write that history, as well as drawing a parallel between Yandel and Mushroom.

Was Cole so outraged at Rhaes attempts at seduction he was so beyond himself and took himself to the arms of the Queen? Or was it that that Rhae wouldn't run away with him, forsaking her claim on the throne and she replaced him with Strong who was more than happy to play second fiddle?

Where is Yandel getting his information?

[DaveSumm]

There's certainly some tantalising evidence for A+J=T in the world book, but my objection remains the same; it'd be SUCH a shame if Genna's little speech about Tyrion being Tywin's true son was false.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

I don't know.

I love the irony in Genna's statement if A+J=T is true.

Tyrion being more truly like Tywin even though he isn't Tywin's son, it goes to the nature vs nurture question. In this case it doesn't matter about the blood it was the examples and lessons learned that defined the man.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

There's certainly some tantalising evidence for A+J=T in the world book, but my objection remains the same; it'd be SUCH a shame if Genna's little speech about Tyrion being Tywin's true son was false.

I dont think it is false. Tyrion is the true son of the man who raised him, just like he was adopted. nature vs nurture.

[Dofs]

I dont think it is false. Tyrion is the true son of the man who raised him, just like he was adopted. nature vs nurture.

Tywin was not raising him, he hated him. The servants were probably doing the raising part. So if Tyrion is not Tywin's son, him being similar to Tywin has as much credit as Baelish being similar to Tywin, or Stannis or whatever. That is, non, it will become irrelevant.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin was not raising him, he hated him. The servants were probably doing the raising part. So if Tyrion is not Tywin's son, him being similar to Tywin has as much credit as Baelish being similar to Tywin, or Stannis or whatever. That is, non, it will become irrelevant.

Eh I disagree, there are many accounts in Tyrions memory of his father berating him or telling him off as a child. Tywin spent a lot of time at CR. I think it is more than clear that a lot of Tywin rubbed off on Tyrion.

I mean the Tysha incident would have been a huge lesson to Tyrion about life, family and who you can trust.

Otherwise what was Gemma's statement about?

[Bael's Bastard]

Tywin was not raising him, he hated him. The servants were probably doing the raising part. So if Tyrion is not Tywin's son, him being similar to Tywin has as much credit as Baelish being similar to Tywin, or Stannis or whatever. That is, non, it will become irrelevant.

Do you really think anyone in Tyrion's life shaped or had more of an impact on Tyrion and who he is than Tywin? Tywin didn't need to burp or change or shower Tyrion with affection to be the most significant person in his life. Tyrion is as much shaped by Tywin as Tywin was shaped by Tytos, regardless of who fathered who.

[UnmaskedLurker]

There's certainly some tantalising evidence for A+J=T in the world book, but my objection remains the same; it'd be SUCH a shame if Genna's little speech about Tyrion being Tywin's true son was false.

Others have already given fine responses to this point, and I agree with them, but I will chime in with my thoughts as well. The ultimate irony--the ultimate "burn" to Tywin--would be that the child that truly emulated the "essence" of Tywin was the child that was not even his biological child. By treating Tyrion with disdain, Tywin created a dynamic in which Tyrion desperately wanted Tywin's approval. Tyrion could never really get that approval. But by trying to be like Tywin, Tyrion became like Tywin--despite that Tywin was not his birth father.

To me, that explanation is much more satisfying than if Gemma is literally correct. If Tryion is really Tywin's child then it just means that of Tywin's three children, Tyrion inherited those attributes from Tywin--so what? But if Tyrion did not inherit them from Tywin but rather developed them by trying to be like Tywin--and became more like Tywin than Tywin's true-born children--now, to me, that is a more satisfying explanation than the one you seem to prefer.