[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[UnmaskedLurker]

While the Maester wouldn't write about it, someone would have heard or mentioned it; Barristan or Jaime would be candidates, and the rumor would circulate by the entire Red Keep even after Aerys was dead.

Also, Aerys was the guy that thought he would turn himself into a dragon by burning KL entirely; the man wouldn't have any self-control specially after Tywin wasn't around him anymore.

I guess we just disagree. That type of activity is something Aerys might alude to--like the breast insult--but he would never say it directly (IMHO). I guess we just disagree on this point. But given that we disagree, GRRM certainly cannot consider himself boxed in on A+J=T--as if he intends A+J=T, he has not precluded the possibility by not having Aerys brag about it publicly (or semi-publicly).

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

While the Maester wouldn't write about it, someone would have heard or mentioned it; Barristan or Jaime would be candidates, and the rumor would circulate by the entire Red Keep even after Aerys was dead.

Also, Aerys was the guy that thought he would turn himself into a dragon by burning KL entirely; the man wouldn't have any self-control specially after Tywin wasn't around him anymore.

Someone would have known, plain and simple.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Someone would have known, plain and simple.

Yes, I suspect Barristan does know it--in fact, my suspicion is that Barristan was part of the KG ordered to bring Joanna to Aerys that night. But Barristan is KG, I don't think he would spread rumors--although he might be part of the reveal after he meets up with Tyrion and is becomes relevant (like if Tyrion binds to a dragon). I was merely stating that just because Aerys did not speak of it in a way that it led to major rumors, does not mean it did not happen. And based on WoIaF, there were rumors about the original affair between A&J, and that is never directly mentioned in the main books other than Barristan's oblique reference. GRRM is not going to make it that easy--if it happened, there is no way he is going to have the characters reference it in a way that is so obvious to the readers--GRRM likes his mysteries too much. So if A+J=T, GRRM would have played it exactly the way he had and not with people talking about the night of the Anniversary Tourney when Aerys raped Joanna--that is just too obvious and not the way GRRM plays these mysteries.

[Mithras]

Euron boasted that Vicky's salt wife came to him wet and willing with the implication of his giant kraken. If Aerys banged Joanna, he would have gloated about it because of his disdain to Tywin.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree with all this. If Aerys had slept with Johanna even once, he would boast it to the entire world, whether he managed to cuckhold Tywin or made him get his leavings. Whether Johanna consented to this or not would be irrelevant.

So you can think of no reason at all why Aerys's might want to not say, 'hi guys, I'm a rapist.'

Really?

[Mithras]

So you can think of no reason at all why Aerys's might want to not say, 'hi guys, I'm a rapist.'

Really?

Euron says hi.

[Lord Varys]

If Aerys and Joanna had an affair - and that seems to be pretty much confirmed unless you cover your ears and go with the 'It's just rumors!'-approach - then that would have been known to a lot of people, and Aerys did not have to gloat over it.

Even more so, if the sex in 272 AC was consensual. Although my guess is that a 'royal rape' does not really include fighting back the assailant in any form, as this could be construed as, well, an attack on the king's person (which would result in hacking off your hands/feet) or as 'treason'. In that sense, I imagine that Joanna would have had 'apparent consensual sex' with Aerys in the sense that she did not try to fight him off, run away, or call for help.

It is not impossible that Aerys told Tywin that he had had Joanna one more time, and I'd think that Tywin being pissed as much as he is as he learns of Aerys' 'the gods have finally punished him' quote is prompted by the fact that Tywin effectively knows that the child that killed Joanna in childbirth was actually fathered by Aerys. Aerys, on the other hand, can never acknowledge or admit (perhaps not even to himself) that this dwarfish monstrosity is his.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Yes, I suspect Barristan does know it--in fact, my suspicion is that Barristan was part of the KG ordered to bring Joanna to Aerys that night. But Barristan is KG, I don't think he would spread rumors--although he might be part of the reveal after he meets up with Tyrion and is becomes relevant (like if Tyrion binds to a dragon). I was merely stating that just because Aerys did not speak of it in a way that it led to major rumors, does not mean it did not happen. And based on WoIaF, there were rumors about the original affair between A&J, and that is never directly mentioned in the main books other than Barristan's oblique reference. GRRM is not going to make it that easy--if it happened, there is no way he is going to have the characters reference it in a way that is so obvious to the readers--GRRM likes his mysteries too much. So if A+J=T, GRRM would have played it exactly the way he had and not with people talking about the night of the Anniversary Tourney when Aerys raped Joanna--that is just too obvious and not the way GRRM plays these mysteries.

You guys are funny. I mean you are actually seeking to rewrite GRRM’s epic series to suit your needs. All you have from Ser Barristan is that Aerys lusted after Joanna Lannister and that he took liberties at her bedding (groping). How you extrapolate from that, that one of the most honorable knights the Seven Kingdoms has ever known is hiding a dark secret like this is pretty laughable. Joanna Lannister was just ordered to the king’s bed chamber? Through all of Tywin’s guards and without the knowledge of servants, ladies-in-waiting, and her children? One of you (can’t remember who) has even speculated that Aerys’ KG (the last truly great KG) sat by and watched Joanna Lannister get raped. C’mon guys, you can do better than this.

If Aerys and Joanna had an affair - and that seems to be pretty much confirmed unless you cover your ears and go with the 'It's just rumors!'-approach - then that would have been known to a lot of people, and Aerys did not have to gloat over it.

Even more so, if the sex in 272 AC was consensual. Although my guess is that a 'royal rape' does not really include fighting back the assailant in any form, as this could be construed as, well, an attack on the king's person (which would result in hacking off your hands/feet) or as 'treason'. In that sense, I imagine that Joanna would have had 'apparent consensual sex' with Aerys in the sense that she did not try to fight him off, run away, or call for help.

It is not impossible that Aerys told Tywin that he had had Joanna one more time, and I'd think that Tywin being pissed as much as he is as he learns of Aerys' 'the gods have finally punished him' quote is prompted by the fact that Tywin effectively knows that the child that killed Joanna in childbirth was actually fathered by Aerys. Aerys, on the other hand, can never acknowledge or admit (perhaps not even to himself) that this dwarfish monstrosity is his.

Your assertion that all of the people who don’t support your theory (I’m guessing that would be most), or analysis of the reading is somehow burying their heads in the sand is just laughable. You are taking your interpretation of the reading and presenting it as fact. The world book confirms an affair between Joanna and Aerys? Really?

You continue to ignore the practicalities of what you are asserting, and instead continue to introduce wild, unlikely scenarios to fill the gaping holes in this theory. As much as Aerys grew to envy and despise Tywin, and took every chance to spite him before the public, you still don’t think he would have shamed Tywin publicly with this fantastical rape/affair? Especially when the madness truly took him?

[Winterfell is Burning]

So you can think of no reason at all why Aerys's might want to not say, 'hi guys, I'm a rapist.'

Really?

He wouldn't say he raped her, just that he had her.

[Chaircat Meow]

He wouldn't say he raped her, just that he had her.

He'd been saying that anyway though.

[RumHam]

Your assertion that all of the people who don’t support your theory (I’m guessing that would be most), or analysis of the reading is somehow burying their heads in the sand is just laughable. You are taking your interpretation of the reading and presenting it as fact. The world book confirms an affair between Joanna and Aerys? Really?

Maybe you're having an issue with the word "confirm." Would you at least agree that it suggests an affair between them? I dunno how you can read

the queen did not approve of his “turning my ladies into his whores.” (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace’s service, nor was she the last).

and not get the message.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Maybe you're having an issue with the word "confirm." Would you at least agree that it suggests an affair between them? I dunno how you can read

and not get the message.

I’m not having any issues “friend.” I simply do not support the theory whatsoever. However, I would surely agree an inference could be made from the reading that an affair occurred. For a certainly, nothing can be confirmed to that effect. Yes, the reading suggests that Aerys was sleeping with some of the Queen’s ladies-in-waiting, but it does not mean, nor does it in any way conclude that Lady Joanna was one of them.

And you are cherry picking again. Lady Joanna was abruptly dismissed after her bedding ceremony due to unwonted liberties, not because of any affair with the king. I can read just fine, and I do not, nor will I ever get the message you are perceiving from the reading.

[RumHam]

I’m not having any issues “friend.” I simply do not support the theory whatsoever. However, I would surely agree an inference could be made from the reading that an affair occurred. For a certainly, nothing can be confirmed to that effect. Yes, the reading suggests that Aerys was sleeping with some of the Queen’s ladies-in-waiting, but it does not mean, nor does it in any way conclude that Lady Joanna was one of them.

And you are cherry picking again. Lady Joanna was abruptly dismissed after her bedding ceremony due to unwonted liberties, not because of any affair with the king. I can read just fine, and I do not, nor will I ever get the message you are perceiving from the reading.

Just to be clear I didn't mean to insult you. I meant that you were taking issue with Varys using the word confirmed when it's not actually confirmed, just heavily implied. I did not mean to suggest that you might have any kinda personal or mental issues.

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

All you have from Ser Barristan is that Aerys lusted after Joanna Lannister and that he took liberties at her bedding (groping). How you extrapolate from that, that one of the most honorable knights the Seven Kingdoms has ever known is hiding a dark secret like this is pretty laughable. Joanna Lannister was just ordered to the king’s bed chamber? Through all of Tywin’s guards and without the knowledge of servants, ladies-in-waiting, and her children? One of you (can’t remember who) has even speculated that Aerys’ KG (the last truly great KG) sat by and watched Joanna Lannister get raped. C’mon guys, you can do better than this.

My guess is that Aerys found a way to separate Tywin and Joanna that day/evening by ordering Tywin to do some errand or see to some activity in the city as Hand. I'm debating between that or Tywin actually being forced to witness the rape as Tyrion had to with Tysha but that just seems so extreme I find it very hard to believe. OTOH this is Aerys II we're talking about. He's pretty much as extreme as they come and that really would have been the ultimate humiliation for Tywin. I definitely lean towards Tywin not witnessing it and only finding out about it after the fact but IDK I feel like it could go either way.

Also, I don't think it's impossible that Barristan stood by as Aerys raped a woman if even Rhaella couldn't be protected from him. It isn't as though Rhaella hadn't done her duty by giving Aerys a son. I'm not sure about Barristan actually bringing her to Aerys (that seems more like something a goldcloak might have done) but I can see him finding out about it as it's happening or immediately afterward, maybe he sees Joanna in tears with torn clothes or something like that. I don't know that it has to be a case of being a dark secret of Barristan's so much as one of the many fucked up things he's witnessed over the years.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If Aerys and Joanna had an affair - and that seems to be pretty much confirmed unless you cover your ears and go with the 'It's just rumors!'-approach - then that would have been known to a lot of people, and Aerys did not have to gloat over it.

Even more so, if the sex in 272 AC was consensual. Although my guess is that a 'royal rape' does not really include fighting back the assailant in any form, as this could be construed as, well, an attack on the king's person (which would result in hacking off your hands/feet) or as 'treason'. In that sense, I imagine that Joanna would have had 'apparent consensual sex' with Aerys in the sense that she did not try to fight him off, run away, or call for help.

It is not impossible that Aerys told Tywin that he had had Joanna one more time, and I'd think that Tywin being pissed as much as he is as he learns of Aerys' 'the gods have finally punished him' quote is prompted by the fact that Tywin effectively knows that the child that killed Joanna in childbirth was actually fathered by Aerys. Aerys, on the other hand, can never acknowledge or admit (perhaps not even to himself) that this dwarfish monstrosity is his.

yes!

And another thing I thought of. OK We know Oberyn tells Tyrion about the wild rumors flying around about his birth deformities.

.."I had just been born, what did you expect of me?"

"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been bored to King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."....................Lord Tywin had made himself greater than king Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man"........"And well you might, since you were said to have one, a stiff curly tail like a swine's. Your head was monstrous huge, we heard, half again the size of your body, and you had been born with thick black hair and a beard besides, an evil eye, and lion's claws. Your teth were so long you could not close your mouth, and between your legs were a girl's privates as well as a boy's."....."You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp.......You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' then Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter, ' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon."

These deformities Oberyn speaks of sound exactly like the stillborn and deformed babies Rhaella and Aerys were having. it would have been no secret that Aerys was having these deformed children. So If it was common knowledge that Aerys was sleeping with Joanna throughout KL and all the way to Dorne, then it would make sense that the common folk would assume that Joanna's baby from Aerys would also be deformed.

I am saying that if the affair was well-known amongst the common folk, they would assume Joanna would have one of Aerys' monster babies, which is why rumors spread so far and wide about TYrion, even before he was born.

[aryagonnakill#2]

We still don't know when Aerys sent Tywin to Lys, presumably it would have been to find a bride for either Rhaegar or Viserys, and I don't think Viserys is as likely because when Viserys would have been the right age Tywin would no longer have been hand.

Cersei also speaks of her father returning before telling her she would be betrothed to Rhaegar. Perhaps Tywin was sent to Essos to find a bride for Rhaegar and he purposefully failed, then came back and thought to himself "now he will have no other choice" or something like that. That would mean Tyrion is still Tywins because of the timeline, but would certainly had provided a long span of time with Tywin out of the way.

[Chaircat Meow]

My guess is that Aerys found a way to separate Tywin and Joanna that day/evening by ordering Tywin to do some errand or see to some activity in the city as Hand. I'm debating between that or Tywin actually being forced to witness the rape as Tyrion had to with Tysha but that just seems so extreme I find it very hard to believe. OTOH this is Aerys II we're talking about. He's pretty much as extreme as they come and that really would have been the ultimate humiliation for Tywin. I definitely lean towards Tywin not witnessing it and only finding out about it after the fact but IDK I feel like it could go either way.

Also, I don't think it's impossible that Barristan stood by as Aerys raped a woman if even Rhaella couldn't be protected from him. It isn't as though Rhaella hadn't done her duty by giving Aerys a son. I'm not sure about Barristan actually bringing her to Aerys (that seems more like something a goldcloak might have done) but I can see him finding out about it as it's happening or immediately afterward, maybe he sees Joanna in tears with torn clothes or something like that. I don't know that it has to be a case of being a dark secret of Barristan's so much as one of the many fucked up things he's witnessed over the years.

:agree:

All we can be reasonably sure about is that Tywin knew what had happened by the next morning, as he tried to resign.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

We still don't know when Aerys sent Tywin to Lys, presumably it would have been to find a bride for either Rhaegar or Viserys, and I don't think Viserys is as likely because when Viserys would have been the right age Tywin would no longer have been hand.

Cersei also speaks of her father returning before telling her she would be betrothed to Rhaegar. Perhaps Tywin was sent to Essos to find a bride for Rhaegar and he purposefully failed, then came back and thought to himself "now he will have no other choice" or something like that. That would mean Tyrion is still Tywins because of the timeline, but would certainly had provided a long span of time with Tywin out of the way.

No, Steffan Baratheon and his wife were dispatched across the narrow sea for this purpose. We know how they ended. I could be wrong, but nowhere is the main books or the world book are we told of Tywin being dispatched across the narrow sea for this.

[Lord Varys]

Stallion,

my take on this is that anyone trying to refute the idea that Joanna and Aerys had an affair before she was married to Tywin and dismissed by Rhaella have really come up with an explanation as to why GRRM would include clues regarding those 'baseless rumors' in both ADwD and TWoIaF.

Any decent historian writing a history of the War of the Five Kings most likely would be able to recognize the 'rumor' about Patchface and Selyse as a lie, especially if he had access to official documents of the time (i.e. the protocols of the sessions of the Small Council where this particular lie was cooked up). Another feature to distinguish between fact and fiction would be to check whether such a rumor circulated before Stannis denounced the claims of Cersei's children (the answer would be 'no').

What we know about Joanna and Aerys now is:

1. The rumor about Aerys deflowering Joanna on the night of Jaehaerys' coronation in 259 AC.

2. The rumor that Joanna enjoyed a short reign as Aerys' mistress after his ascension to the Iron Throne.

3. The rumor that Aerys lusted after Joanna enough to be the woman Barristan comes up with when Dany asks him about her father's true love.

4. The story about the liberties Aerys took during Joanna's bedding (corroborated both by ADwD and TWoIaF).

When Yandel discusses those 'rumors' in TWoIaF he actually cites Pycelle as a source and follows his 'judgment' to dismiss the rumors because they do not fit with his view of Tywin's personality. In light of Tywin's affair with Shae this is not actually a very good case, don't you think.

Whether Aerys and Joanna rekindled their affair later on, or whether they had sex later on in 272 AC during the anniversary tourney has nothing to do with that.

However, if George really wanted to stick to 'Tyrion is Tywin's biological son' he would, in my opinion, never have introduced the affair between Joanna and Aerys is the first place.

Yes, Tywin was never charged to find a bride for Rhaegar, nor was Steffon looking for a bride in Lys. He and Cassana went straight and only to Volantis.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Just to be clear I didn't mean to insult you. I meant that you were taking issue with Varys using the word confirmed when it's not actually confirmed, just heavily implied. I did not mean to suggest that you might have any kinda personal or mental issues.

If my tone was too gruff, my apologies. Its not heavily implied either, it can only be inferred.

My guess is that Aerys found a way to separate Tywin and Joanna that day/evening by ordering Tywin to do some errand or see to some activity in the city as Hand. I'm debating between that or Tywin actually being forced to witness the rape as Tyrion had to with Tysha but that just seems so extreme I find it very hard to believe. OTOH this is Aerys II we're talking about. He's pretty much as extreme as they come and that really would have been the ultimate humiliation for Tywin. I definitely lean towards Tywin not witnessing it and only finding out about it after the fact but IDK I feel like it could go either way.

Also, I don't think it's impossible that Barristan stood by as Aerys raped a woman if even Rhaella couldn't be protected from him. It isn't as though Rhaella hadn't done her duty by giving Aerys a son. I'm not sure about Barristan actually bringing her to Aerys (that seems more like something a goldcloak might have done) but I can see him finding out about it as it's happening or immediately afterward, maybe he sees Joanna in tears with torn clothes or something like that. I don't know that it has to be a case of being a dark secret of Barristan's so much as one of the many fucked up things he's witnessed over the years.

I don’t know how to respond to this, because it is wild speculation, which is many theories are. But there is simply no textual foundation for any of this. I suppose its feasible, but I don’t think its very plausible.

The Princess of Dorne was a lady-in-waiting for the queen. Was she a whore for Aerys as well? I know the Dornish are quite open-handed when it comes to sexual matters, but the princess herself? She and Joanna were the best of friends after all.

The KG for Aerys II were: Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Barristan Selmy, Ser Oswell Whent, Ser Jonothor Darry, and Prince Lewyn. An honorable KG, and the last truly great one. I know the situation with the queen, but being complicit the rape of the most powerful lord in the realm? Still not buying it.