[TWoIaF spoilers] Who are the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If Dunk hadn't met Egg, Rhaelle would have died at Summerhal. Dead Rhaelle means no Rhaegar and no Rhaegar means no Jon. And no Dany as well. Which means that our two best hopes for the role of tPtwP wouldn't be around, which means that the entirety of Westeros would be destroyed. I think Baelor Breakspear would have been a brilliant King, the best really, but in the end his sacrifice was needed.

LOL ok, I just meant Dunk had bad luck surrounding him on several occasions.

[Ran]

Sorry, an army, singular, not plural. Forgot the exact line from the book. :) (And no, notes don't say anything else). Even so, an army is a bit much to send after some thugs.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, House Suggs has a flying pig for a sigil, House Flower a blue hawk, and House Terrick four hawk's heads. No one with a rat on the sigil, though, as far as I can recall.

Or, we're not looking for sigils at all..

And isn't a farrow a litter of pigs? There's a House Farrow...

[Lord Varys]

Well, the idea would be that those thugs rose to prominence eventually in a similar way Dunk climbed to the top of the food chain. Surely he is not longer a lowborn hedge knight in the 250s.

But even if this is complete bogus I guess we are bound to meet Ferret, Rafe, and Pudding eventually. I don't think George has put them in there just because Dunk likes (or dislikes) thinking of Flea Bottom.

And 'some lords' is also kind of strange. Why the hell would some lords mistreat Aelora the way those people did? Surely as a Lord the most stupidest thing to do would be attacking the sister-wife of the late Crown Prince. I'd imagine somebody targeted Aelora specifically - or somebody else at that masked ball - and she only happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. But both options would suggests that the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig were henchmen of some sort back then.

Come to think of it - perhaps this masked ball was the prelude of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion? Bittersteel sent assassins to infiltrate the Red Keep to take out Daemon II along with members of the royal family, possibly Aerys I himself, to ease the way for Haegon...?

[Lord Annaly]

On their first mention as I read it I took it as a random attack of convenience.

At a masked ball it is easy to perpetrate a crime under the cloak (mask) of anonymity, it read like she was sexually assaulted (that she committed suicide made me think of this), that three men came across a lone beautiful princess and under the influence of alcohol committed the crime.

On their later exploits it is hard to see how they went from possible random party rapists to full blown rebels that an army was needed to put an end to them but maybe that high level crime scared them into becoming fugitives and from there they became bandits, to rebels to a danger to the realm.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

House Suggs is only Clayton, so no. It's his personal thing.

Stackhouse, Durwell and Conklyn are three of Webbers neighbours who seem quite villainous. Even Wendell Webber himself (although he would have got it after Rohanne married elsewhere).

I do doubt this was a Dornish thing. Maybe maesters? A female to continue the line in a Rhaeger situation of something. Not FM tho, they don't need masks.

I always thought the Steffon-Derrick-Franklyn thing to. Lord to knight to bastard.

[AtomixIGN]

I hear Rat and I think Spy.

[Hrafntýr]

It also calls to mind the go-between for Daemon in the Blood and Cheese incident. Am I remembering correctly that Daemon and the pale stranger were familiars from the "rat pits" of Flea Bottom?

But I think there are three possibilities: that the Rat, Hawk and Pig of the masked ball are the same Rat, Hawk and Pig of the armed rebellion; that the backers of the original attack at the masked ball (maybe carried out by Dunk's childhood friends) are the same backers or even front men of the later Rat, Hawk and Pig trio, or that the later rebels are different individuals who simply saw in the original trio a useful symbol of anti-Targ action.

[Hardstone]

Come to think of it - perhaps this masked ball was the prelude of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion? Bittersteel sent assassins to infiltrate the Red Keep to take out Daemon II along with members of the royal family, possibly Aerys I himself, to ease the way for Haegon...?

I like it. Although the Blackfyres would lack the element of surprise going forward. The 3rd rebellion sounds like it will be big so maybe they didn't need stealth because they had the strength to match the Targaryens.

Daemon II's assassination has been theorised before and I think it has a good chance of coming to be.

[The Vulture King]

No clue who they could be but as it was a masked ball that seems pretty VIP so I personally think they are Lords.

Also the whole part about Aelor dieing at the hand of Aelora? Do we know how or why that happened?

[Lord Varys]

Well, a masked ball is the perfect opportunity to infiltrate the castle by pretending you are a certain lord under a mask, while this is not exactly the case...

As to Aelor/Aelora:

My first guess was some sort of sexual experiment/practice gone wrong. Aelora strangling Aelor to death, or something like that. That would be much more interesting than a 'normal accident'.

If this masked ball made the way for the Third Rebellion it was not really successful besides the murder of Daemon II, as neither Maekar nor Aerys I were killed prior to that Rebellion.

If that's the case, then this could have occurred in 219 AC prior to the outbreak of the Rebellion, as this would also mark Aerys' tenth year on the Iron Throne.

[The hairy bear]

I also think that they were lords. I would venture that Aelora was raped by three men with the masks of a pig, a hawk, and a rat. She'd say that, and then commit suicide. Dunk and Egg would know that they were lords (because all the masked guests at the party were), but wouldn't know who they were. For the following D&E stories, they would have this sense of paranoia, suspecting that every lord they deal with could be behind the crime. I think it would make for an interesting story to read.

That would be resolved in 252, with the unmasking of the lords, the war against them, and the death of Daeron. It would be one of the last D&E stories, since Sumerhall takes place in 259.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I also think that they were lords. I would venture that Aelora was raped by three men with the masks of a pig, a hawk, and a rat. She'd say that, and then commit suicide. Dunk and Egg would know that they were lords (because all the masked guests at the party were), but wouldn't know who they were. For the following D&E stories, they would have this sense of paranoia, suspecting that every lord they deal with could be behind the crime. I think it would make for an interesting story to read.

That would be resolved in 252, with the unmasking of the lords, the war against them, and the death of Daeron. It would be one of the last D&E stories, since Sumerhall takes place in 259.

This sounds like the most likely, and would indeed by an interesting story. I feel sympathetic for Aelora and this isn't even real aha.

It would also give us an inside view of the court in Kings Landing. I hope we learn some more about Crownlands houses.

Do you have any ideas for which lords? Probably a Peake.

[Hardstone]

The Peake uprising looks like it will be a separate incident so they may not be involved in this plot. Same with the Lothstons.

Toyne could be a possibility.

[Arataniello]

If the three are just hedge knights, maybe one of them is called Pate, who become "the Pig" (Pate the Pigboy and all that).

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Pate the Pigboy precedes Egg and Dunk. I doubt he would be remembered as a hero.

[Arataniello]

Pate the Pigboy precedes Egg and Dunk. I doubt he would be remembered as a hero.

I was not implying that it was the original Pate the Pigboy, but that IF one of the hedge knights involved in the events were called Pate, then maybe he was remembered as "the Pig" because of the association of that name with "Pate the Pigboy".

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I was not implying that it was the original Pate the Pigboy, but that IF one of the hedge knights involved in the events were called Pate, then maybe he was remembered as "the Pig" because of the association of that name with "Pate the Pigboy".

Oh right, sorry. Maybe. But the lords seems more likely.

[Edd fetch me the boo box]

Well, a masked ball is the perfect opportunity to infiltrate the castle by pretending you are a certain lord under a mask, while this is not exactly the case...

As to Aelor/Aelora:

My first guess was some sort of sexual experiment/practice gone wrong. Aelora strangling Aelor to death, or something like that. That would be much more interesting than a 'normal accident'.

If this masked ball made the way for the Third Rebellion it was not really successful besides the murder of Daemon II, as neither Maekar nor Aerys I were killed prior to that Rebellion.

If that's the case, then this could have occurred in 219 AC prior to the outbreak of the Rebellion, as this would also mark Aerys' tenth year on the Iron Throne.

A couple of observations:

Not sure about the history behind it, but the White Queen portrays George of Clarence slandering his brother Edward IV at a masquerade ball for his 15th regnal anniversary. This is portrayed as the prelude to George's execution.

Also "The Rat, The Hawk and The Pig" invokes the rhyme by William Colyngbourne about Richard III's court: "The cat, the rat, and Lovell our dog, rule all England under a Hog."

The cat is William Catesby, the rat is Richard Ratcliffe, and the Lovell our dog is Francis Lovell, who had a dog on his coat of arms, all three were close councillors of Richard III, whose coat of arms was a boar.

Maybe Rat and Hawk are part of the names of two of the lords, and the last's sigil could involve a pig or a boar? Just shots in the dark. Just got reminded of that little rhyme when I read the name of the topic.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I also think that they were lords. I would venture that Aelora was raped by three men with the masks of a pig, a hawk, and a rat. She'd say that, and then commit suicide. Dunk and Egg would know that they were lords (because all the masked guests at the party were), but wouldn't know who they were. For the following D&E stories, they would have this sense of paranoia, suspecting that every lord they deal with could be behind the crime. I think it would make for an interesting story to read.

That would be resolved in 252, with the unmasking of the lords, the war against them, and the death of Daeron. It would be one of the last D&E stories, since Sumerhall takes place in 259.

This seems more likely.