Tywin Lannister, OMG may not be that bad afterall

[marsyao]

Tywin did not inform Jaime about his intention, do not forget Jaime was a loyal Kingsguard before he became a Kingslayer, as a sworn brotherhood of the Kingsguard, Jaime's first loyalty would be to King not his own house. there was no way Tywin would know what Jaime was about to do beforehand

[John Suburbs]

Jaime is inside the Red Keep. How on earth do you think he would know what is going on in other parts of the city. If there was a huge fight a few blocks away from you would you know about it when you were safely inside?

Also, if there is no fighting how exactly does Aerys know that Tywin has turned against him?

Again, dragon, you're all over the map. The theory being put forward now is that Tywin launched an attack on the keep first and then that spilled over into the city and sparked the sack. So my point was that Jaime apparently did not see or hear any fighting in the keep, even when he was summoned back into the throne room and killed Rossart before killing the king. Yes, there is no way he would hear fighting in the city, but if the fighting started in the keep first, he surely must have heard it or at least been aware of it. His job was to defend the keep.

Clearly there is trouble in Kings Landing.

Yes, clearly because he is getting reports of the fighting. "They are inside my walls," is he talking about the keep or the city?

Ned does not get there first, Westerling and Crakehall do.

Good catch. Point to dragon. I was relying on Jaime's tale to Brienne, but I remember that too. Is that from AFFC? I am puzzled about the "there to see the end of it" part. The end of what? The king dying? Ned's entrance? The end of the fighting? If they were there to see the last gasps of the king, then there was some action in the RK, but the fighting is already raging outside, according to Jaime's tale. And according to Tywin's account as told to Tyrion, his two biggest concerns were Ned's van heading south and the risk to Jaime's life in the keep, so if anything the assault on the keep was in response to the deteriorating situation in the city, not the other way around.

Of course it would be suspicious. They are not guarding from the Red Keep, near the coast, but the gates. There is simply no reason for thousands of Westerland soldiers to march from one of the entrances to the Keep with the rebels on their way.

At this point it seems like you are deliberately ignoring both logic and the characters in favor of your own agenda.

There is every reason for Tywin to march a single battalion out of probably 30, or even just a company or two, in order to shore up defenses at the Red Keep. That is where the king lives. It would be unusual if he didn't do that. If it is so logical to stack all of your available soldiers on the gate and none in the keep, how can it make sense to you to have thousands of targ defenders and loyalist in the keep during the sack?

Tywin did not inform Jaime about his intention, do not forget Jaime was a loyal Kingsguard before he became a Kingslayer, as a sworn brotherhood of the Kingsguard, Jaime's first loyalty would be to King not his own house. there was no way Tywin would know what Jaime was about to do beforehand

I'm not sure what you are responding to. From Tywin's perspective, it does not matter what Jaime knows or doesn't know. Aerys has him in the Red Keep, he is both a guard and a hostage -- the same way Theon is both a ward and a hostage. It provides insurance that your friends/enemies won't attack you. Tywin would not risk the life of his son just to take over a castle that he is going to hand over to Ned and Robert in a few hours anyway. He will, however, take a calculated risk that the confusion of the sack is enough to cover the murder of the children because the children pose the greatest risk of a counter-rebellion someday.

The Red Keep and Aerys are nothing to Tywin, so I find it completely implausible that he would attack the keep first in order to secure the city. He already had the city completely under his control.

[SeanF]

There is Ned states quite clearly that there are thousands of loyalists in the Red Keep with Aerys.

That's right, thousands of opposition. Who is your source that there was no opposition. Use a quote from the books to back it up because so far Neds statement trumps your opinion.

The Red Keep was held against Tywin, but not the city. That's leaving aside the fact that Tywin gained entry to the city through treachery.

Sacking Kings Landing, like killing Elia and her children, was Tywin getting revenge for Aerys' treatment of him.

[John Doe]

Tywin didn't kill Elia and the sack was a consequence of him attacking the Targaryen loyalists.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Red Keep was held against Tywin, but not the city. That's leaving aside the fact that Tywin gained entry to the city through treachery.

Sacking Kings Landing, like killing Elia and her children, was Tywin getting revenge for Aerys' treatment of him.

Elia and her children I could see.

But Tywin isn't so irrational that he would view sacking a city as revenge against Aerys

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Again, dragon, you're all over the map. The theory being put forward now is that Tywin launched an attack on the keep first and then that spilled over into the city and sparked the sack.

Where have I said that?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The Red Keep was held against Tywin, but not the city. That's leaving aside the fact that Tywin gained entry to the city through treachery.

Who is at the Gates? Like Tyrion had organized against Stannis there would be armed loyalists preparing the defense of Kings Landing and they would be at the Gates as well as the Red Keep.

[marsyao]

I'm not sure what you are responding to. From Tywin's perspective, it does not matter what Jaime knows or doesn't know. Aerys has him in the Red Keep, he is both a guard and a hostage -- the same way Theon is both a ward and a hostage. It provides insurance that your friends/enemies won't attack you. Tywin would not risk the life of his son just to take over a castle that he is going to hand over to Ned and Robert in a few hours anyway. He will, however, take a calculated risk that the confusion of the sack is enough to cover the murder of the children because the children pose the greatest risk of a counter-rebellion someday.

The Red Keep and Aerys are nothing to Tywin, so I find it completely implausible that he would attack the keep first in order to secure the city. He already had the city completely under his control.

That is not ture, Theon was hostage first, Jaime was a sworn brother of Kingsguard, his loyaltiy is to King only, like night watch, he gave up all of his right and obligation the day he took his oath, he is never a hostage

[John Suburbs]

That is not ture, Theon was hostage first, Jaime was a sworn brother of Kingsguard, his loyaltiy is to King only, like night watch, he gave up all of his right and obligation the day he took his oath, he is never a hostage

Oh come on. Jaime was kingsguard, yes, but he was also Aerys' assurance that Tywin would remain loyal. Just because Jaime became KG doesn't mean Tywin stopped caring whether he lived or died. And we all know how far Jaime's loyalty to the king went.

[John Doe]

Not as far as his loyality to the oaths he swore when he became a knight.

[marsyao]

Oh come on. Jaime was kingsguard, yes, but he was also Aerys' assurance that Tywin would remain loyal. Just because Jaime became KG doesn't mean Tywin stopped caring whether he lived or died. And we all know how far Jaime's loyalty to the king went.

And we all know why Jaime made his choice

[John Suburbs]

Yes, be we are talking about whether Tywin would or would not launch an attack against the Red Keep, which is what led to the sack of the entire city if I understand your previous posts correctly.

So in that regard, it does not matter whether Jaime did or did not intend to honor is vows to the king. All that mattered to Tywin is the Aerys had Jaime in the Red Keep and he would have been killed if Tywin tried to overrun the keep.

Your suggestion that Tywin did not care about Jaime anymore just because Jaime swore a vow to the king is ludicrous. Look at the way he reacted when Jaime was captured in the Whispering Wood, or when he found out his hand had been cut off. Doesn't sound like someone who has given up on Jaime someday leaving the KG and become lord of the rock. In fact, the very last conversation they had was about that very subject, and Tywin was furious that Jaime had decided to place duty and honor above the needs of his house.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Rhaegar as King with Tywin as Hand is one of the great "could-have-beens" in the history of Westeros.. Even without Cersei as Queen, I think this pairing could have gone places

[Winterfell is Burning]

Rhaegar as King with Tywin as Hand is one of the great "could-have-beens" in the history of Westeros.. Even without Cersei as Queen, I think this pairing could have gone places

The thing is that Cersei as Queen results in the incest with Jaime being found since Rhaegar wasn't a drunkard, which results in dead Jaime and Cersei, which results in dead Tywin.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Rhaegar as King with Tywin as Hand is one of the great "could-have-beens" in the history of Westeros.. Even without Cersei as Queen, I think this pairing could have gone places

Nope. Rhaegar is as much an idiot as his father was. At the Tourney of Harenhal, if we are to believe rumors, he was organizing a coup by trying to get popular support to retire his father and crown himself King. So far so reasonable, but look how he does that. He crowns the teenage daughter of one Overlord, who is engaged to another Overlord while ignoring his own wife, another daughter of an Overlord. In one action he has pissed off 3 of the 7 regions he needs to support him, as well as Hoster Tully, whose daughter is engaged to Brandon Stark, who is visibly angry over this slight and Jon Arryn who treats Robert like his son. Political suicide.

Rhaegar seemed promising when he was young and had no responsibilities, but then so did Aerys. I imagine he would of been a bigger disaster than his father, but maybe not as messy towards the end.

[Panther2000]

I think that I should have titled this thread, " I understand Twyin a lot better with this new book" I do believe that I misspoke when I said that he may not be that bad.

Correction: what he does to his own family ( tryion ) is horrible & making Jamie go along with it is horrid.

However, what he does to the other families, & giving the order to kill Eilia & her kids I hate, but that is war & I have to take today's standards out of the mix. We can't apply 20& 21st Century logic to something that was suppose to happen hundreds of years ago ( or our Historical events that happen so long ago). It is sad to say but getting rid of family members of a former Royal court or Heirs is necessary. Just look at what happen with the War of the Roses. No one likes the thought of killing children or those people who kill children.

I just go back to Episode 10 in Season 3 where Tryion is talking with his father over killing or Rob & Co at the wedding. & Tywin has it right when he says, Killing a few hundred at a wedding or 100 of Thousands more dying for a War that Rob had already lost ( that last part was mine, ROB did lose the war when he married).

I loved Rob's character but, after the few battles that he won, he stopped listing to his banner men & his mother. He knew that he made a Oath for marriage & still disregarding that because his slept with a girl. Hell, give her some Moon Tea & call it a day.

Like I said, I made a mistake in the title. I just understand Twyin more.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think that I should have titled this thread, " I understand Twyin a lot better with this new book" I do believe that I misspoke when I said that he may not be that bad.

Correction: what he does to his own family ( tryion ) is horrible & making Jamie go along with it is horrid.

However, what he does to the other families, & giving the order to kill Eilia & her kids I hate, but that is war & I have to take today's standards out of the mix. We can't apply 20& 21st Century logic to something that was suppose to happen hundreds of years ago ( or our Historical events that happen so long ago). It is sad to say but getting rid of family members of a former Royal court or Heirs is necessary. Just look at what happen with the War of the Roses. No one likes the thought of killing children or those people who kill children.

I just go back to Episode 10 in Season 3 where Tryion is talking with his father over killing or Rob & Co at the wedding. & Tywin has it right when he says, Killing a few hundred at a wedding or 100 of Thousands more dying for a War that Rob had already lost ( that last part was mine, ROB did lose the war when he married).

I loved Rob's character but, after the few battles that he won, he stopped listing to his banner men & his mother. He knew that he made a Oath for marriage & still disregarding that because his slept with a girl. Hell, give her some Moon Tea & call it a day.

Like I said, I made a mistake in the title. I just understand Twyin more.

Tywin's line is complete bullshit because:

a) Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn;

b) The Freys murdered THOUSANDS, not just a few;

c) By breaking guest-right, Tywin makes sure that every war he fights has to be fought to the last man, because the two sides can't trust each other enough to sit down and have a conversation;

People who are Tywin fans (and I don't mean Tywin as an interesting villain, like most people are) all have one thing in common: they only pay attention to what he says while completely ignoring what he actually does.

[Lion of the West]

Tywin's line is complete bullshit because:

a) Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn;

B) The Freys murdered THOUSANDS, not just a few;

c) By breaking guest-right, Tywin makes sure that every war he fights has to be fought to the last man, because the two sides can't trust each other enough to sit down and have a conversation;

People who are Tywin fans (and I don't mean Tywin as an interesting villain, like most people are) all have one thing in common: they only pay attention to what he says while completely ignoring what he actually does.

C, Is wrong. After the Red Wedding several Riverlords yielded to Lannister aligned forces and the Mallisters even yielded directly to the Freys, which should prove that the "to the last" mentality is not stronger now in Westeros than it was before?

[Winterfell is Burning]

C, Is wrong. After the Red Wedding several Riverlords yielded to Lannister aligned forces and the Mallisters even yielded directly to the Freys, which should prove that the "to the last" mentality is not stronger now in Westeros than it was before?

The Riverlords have no choice because of the hostages- but what about when they are released or die? What happens in the next war? Why would they trust the Lannisters if they offer a peace deal? And we're already seeing what happens when someone has their hostage released: they are literally eating Freys, serving them as pies.

And like I said: Robb was going North to fight the Ironborn, he wouldn't be a threat to Tywin in the years at least.

[Chaircat Meow]

Tywin himself didn't break guest right btw. He connived at someone else doing so, and has plausible deniability. The idea the Red Wedding means you can never make peace again is absurd: we see riverlords rushing to do just that after hearing about the wedding!