Wise Mans Fear- Malfeasance in the Eld (spoilers)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SomA,

Why are you so intent upon insisting Kvothe is a storybook "hero"? Is it necessary for Kvothe to be a "good guy" for you to enjoy the story?

[Frey Pie]

That would make a modicum of sense if that was the narrative of the story. As it was written though, Kvothe had already poisoned the group before he ever found out anything about kidnap or rape.

In essence, he passed a death sentence on a group of people for impersonating the Ruh.

small bit of an understatement no? He passed a death sentence on them for impersonating the ruh and for murdering members of his "family" as well as putting many others of his "family" in danger by their actions

He's no Saint but he had his reasons. The girls were just the oil to his fire

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

SomA,

Why are you so intent upon insisting Kvothe is a storybook "hero"? Is it necessary for Kvothe to be a "good guy" for you to enjoy the story?

Necessary? No. I am calling it as I see it, based on the information given to us thus far. Unless we see a steep descent into darkness in Day 3, I maintain that he is what I would call a 'good' person.

I persist in my argument because that is the nature of the story we are reading. He's not the hero in the Aragorn mold or even the Eddard Stark mold.... he's the 'hero' in the D'Artagnan mold. Acting based on a core personal sense of 'rightness', buttressed by an unshakable belief in his own judgment, quite content to use guile and deception to achieve his goals, but just the person you would hope to see walking down the road if you were being accosted by some criminals, or if you were in dire need of some other assistance.

His chief fault as I see it, is an inflated sense of pride.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

What has always bothered me:

Why didn't the Chronicler help Kvothe in the frame story when he was getting the crap kicked out of him?

Chronicler is not just your garden variety university student, he knows the name of iron (which, according to Elodin is more than 1 student in 1000 achieves).

Should have been really simple for him to calm that situation down.

Yes. That bothered me immensely. Doubtless an accomplished sympathist, with the name of iron. You'd think he'd be a bit more resourceful in a critical situation, yet we find him hiding under the coffee table.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SotM,

I agree that Pride is a fault of Kvothe. That said I think we are reading a very different kind of story than the one you anticipate. I think pride and arrogance will be more than faults I think they will be his downfall. It wouldn't shock me if the "King" Kvothe kills is Sim.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

That would make a modicum of sense if that was the narrative of the story. As it was written though, Kvothe had already poisoned the group before he ever found out anything about kidnap or rape.

In essence, he passed a death sentence on a group of people for impersonating the Ruh.

You are quite mistaken.

He came upon a group of highwaymen that had acquired Ruh wagons with their identifying marks intact. No Ruh troupe would let such things leave their possession willingly, so there was really only one way for Alleg & Co. to have acquired them - by killing the actual troupe and stealing their wagons with markings intact.

The poison was not fatal, merely incapacitating. The death sentences only came after he had seen the girls.

[Howdyphillip]

You are quite mistaken.

He came upon a group of highwaymen that had acquired Ruh wagons with their identifying marks intact. No Ruh troupe would let such things leave their possession willingly, so there was really only one way for Alleg & Co. to have acquired them - by killing the actual troupe and stealing their wagons with markings intact.

The poison was not fatal, merely incapacitating. The death sentences only came after he had seen the girls.

Just because people are in possession of a stolen item doesn't mean that they are the ones who stole it, or are guilty of anything. Now, I will grant you that this was the most probable scenario, but our "hero" decided his course of murderous action before he became aware of all the facts. For all he knew at this point, this group could have come across the Ruh gear after a skirmish where everyone died. He passed a death sentence for no other reason than impersonating the Ruh.

[unJon]

Just because people are in possession of a stolen item doesn't mean that they are the ones who stole it, or are guilty of anything. Now, I will grant you that this was the most probable scenario, but our "hero" decided his course of murderous action before he became aware of all the facts. For all he knew at this point, this group could have come across the Ruh gear after a skirmish where everyone died. He passed a death sentence for no other reason than impersonating the Ruh.

The poison wasn't deadly, which is the only step he had taken at this point. Also the "troupers" knew the signs and habits of the Ruh (e.g, water and wine, songs before dinner,etc.) so it is not really true that they could have just stumbled on the wagons. On the other hand, Kvothe for sure would have killed them all in revenge for what they did to the Ruh even if the girls had not been prisoners. He was judge, jury and executioner.

Just reread the books and Denna bothers me less with each reread.

[Tears of Lys]

Just reread the books and Denna bothers me less with each reread.

I've never understood the Denna hate. People are so judgmental when it comes to women.

[Lord.Snow]

Denna is a bad ass.

Learning how to fight "dancing" lessons with Mr. Ash aka Bredan

[Pliskin]

I've never understood the Denna hate. People are so judgmental when it comes to women.

Actually, I was surprised at how people can misunderstand the character.

I had a discussion with another reader, and he basically thought that she was "whoring" with everyone. Like, in the true sense of the word.

I had to explain to him that it was the opposite, and that she left her benefactors when they were too demanding of carnal attention.

I don't know if it had to do with the fact that he only read the first book whereas I read both, but even if I might dislike her relationship with Kvothe (too much teasing, nothing happens), I never really disliked her character as he did.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I dislike Kvothes reactions to and behavior towards Denna more than I dislike Dena herself. He should've come clean about the back story on the barrow hill.

If not then, then when she played her song.

Frustrating . He has not told anyone. More frustrating still .

[unJon]

I dislike Kvothes reactions to and behavior towards Denna more than I dislike Dena herself. He should've come clean about the back story on the barrow hill.

If not then, then when she played her song.

Frustrating . He has not told anyone. More frustrating still .

This is a better way of putting it.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

SotM,

I agree that Pride is a fault of Kvothe. That said I think we are reading a very different kind of story than the one you anticipate. I think pride and arrogance will be more than faults I think they will be his downfall. It wouldn't shock me if the "King" Kvothe kills is Sim.

Should that be the case then we will all have to revise our assessments, me especially.

But from what I have seen of him thus far, he is what I would call a "good" person. His inclination is to defend the weak, the helpless, and the downtrodden. When in a position to mete out justice, you can rightly say that he is severe, but severity in dispensation of justice is not necessarily a bad thing.

The desire to set to rights the cruelty, intimidation and injustice Kvothe encounters (from the seemingly trivial, - Ambrose imposing himself on Fela with his awful poetry, to the gravely serious, the Faux Ruh encounter) is at the very core of his being. If you go back to Name of the Wind, when Kvothe is recently installed in his crude rooftop shelter, he hears a young boy being chased, being assaulted, perhaps being killed. Kvothe had only too recently been in the same position and had barely escaped with his life. He knew what would happen to the boy, just as he knew that he alone could do nothing against so many attackers. The memory of that night and those feelings were seared into his conscience

As Kvothe hiself says, the inability to help that boy, and the emotions that experience solicited, more than anything else, is what propelled Kvothe to become the man he is/was and perhaps will be again.

I believe the root of your complaint against Kvothe (and the root of the complaints made by others of a similar bent) is that Kvothe takes matters into his own hands. He is a man of action. Good & gentle Simmon says as much (AND with much approbation, I might add) - "you see something wrong and you act."

By a combination of his tragic & violently ended childhood & his quasi-feral upbringing in Tarbean, having witness so many terrible things in that time, Kvothe has emerged as a young man who is incapable of seeing an injustice and leaving it for someone else to sort out. Many, many heroes have been cast in that mold.

[Proudfeet]

Should that be the case then we will all have to revise our assessments, me especially.

But from what I have seen of him thus far, he is what I would call a "good" person. His inclination is to defend the weak, the helpless, and the downtrodden. When in a position to mete out justice, you can rightly say that he is severe, but severity in dispensation of justice is not necessarily a bad thing.

The desire to set to rights the cruelty, intimidation and injustice Kvothe encounters (from the seemingly trivial, - Ambrose imposing himself on Fela with his awful poetry, to the gravely serious, the Faux Ruh encounter) is at the very core of his being. If you go back to Name of the Wind, when Kvothe is recently installed in his crude rooftop shelter, he hears a young boy being chased, being assaulted, perhaps being killed. Kvothe had only too recently been in the same position and had barely escaped with his life. He knew what would happen to the boy, just as he knew that he alone could do nothing against so many attackers. The memory of that night and those feelings were seared into his conscience

As Kvothe hiself says, the inability to help that boy, and the emotions that experience solicited, more than anything else, is what propelled Kvothe to become the man he is/was and perhaps will be again.

I believe the root of your complaint against Kvothe (and the root of the complaints made by others of a similar bent) is that Kvothe takes matters into his own hands. He is a man of action. Good & gentle Simmon says as much (AND with much approbation, I might add) - "you see something wrong and you act."

By a combination of his tragic & violently ended childhood & his quasi-feral upbringing in Tarbean, having witness so many terrible things in that time, Kvothe has emerged as a young man who is incapable of seeing an injustice and leaving it for someone else to sort out. Many, many heroes have been cast in that mold.

Not speaking for Scot, but my complaint is that Kvothe is proud, petty and vindictive. Maybe that is because he was still immature, being young and all, but that is still who he was. The D'Artagnan comparison is apt. I didn't think he was a good person either, especially in the earlier books when he was younger. Remember when his disregard for everyone other than himself caused him to book duels with all three musketeers?

I'll repeat what I said in the previous thread,

No, Kvothe was not "evil", but he was also not a "good" person. If we use characters as benchmarks, he is closer to being Ambrose than being Sim on the personality spectrum. If we are quoting characters from the story, we could also quote Kilvin about doing good things the proper way. Kvothe has/had some serious character issues.

[Lord.Snow]

First off thanks for all the feedback, even tho somewhat side tracked from original post, Asoiaf fans never fail to impress.


So
Denna gives kvothe a knife fighting lesson. How to grip the blade for stabbing without cutting himself,
He remarks that his knife is more for cutting apples while hers is clearly for stabbing people.

Later Kvothe sees denna defend a beaten girl at knife point from a grown man, Pretty bad ass!

Shes always covered in bruises from her "stick beatings" however i think its more part of her martial training then her being a victim of someone.

She is at the wedding where the chandrian were and kvothe and her both agree that the chandrian are behind it. (shes the only one who beleives in then apart from K)

I think she has answers for him and vice versa if they were to discuss,

Also shes been researching the amyr for her song- I can't beleive he fights with her instead of trying to corroborate some info and understand her more.

Denna is actually really cool to Kvothe i feel like she would run away with him at any moment if he asked from day 1.

Hes just too busy !

[Lord.Snow]

Still the whole malfeasance thing is funny ,

at one point Kvothe goes to the medica and learns that they will treat anyone even if they cannot pay they are expected to work it off,

Kvothe remarks who would skimp out on a bunch of sympathists who have your blood- how ever its not like the medica is gonna make a moment to collect a debt.

So,,, seems like kindava silly threat if malfeasance isnt done.


Anyways,

Nobody does Malfeasance like Kvothe- im pretty sure what he did would not only get him expelled but would threaten the very foundation upon which the university is allowed to exist.

There must be a reason why there are no Warrior class archanists. Mabe that explains why the Cronicler is so useless in the frame. Hes an accomplished sympathist but has no mind toward combat ?> mabe..

[Ninefingers]

Actually, I was surprised at how people can misunderstand the character.

I had a discussion with another reader, and he basically thought that she was "whoring" with everyone. Like, in the true sense of the word.

I had to explain to him that it was the opposite, and that she left her benefactors when they were too demanding of carnal attention.

I don't know if it had to do with the fact that he only read the first book whereas I read both, but even if I might dislike her relationship with Kvothe (too much teasing, nothing happens), I never really disliked her character as he did.

There is this:

"Don't lie to yourself. Even the fanciest horse is still a horse. That means sooner or later, you're going to get ridden." Denna, to country girl who'd run away to the city. (WMF, c72)

I think it's fairly strongly implied that she's speaking from experience.

[Ninefingers]

Should that be the case then we will all have to revise our assessments, me especially.

But from what I have seen of him thus far, he is what I would call a "good" person. His inclination is to defend the weak, the helpless, and the downtrodden. When in a position to mete out justice, you can rightly say that he is severe, but severity in dispensation of justice is not necessarily a bad thing.

I'd say he's a person with good intentions.

I suspect that in D3, we'll see him be mistaken about what exactly is the "greater good" and we'll he him take actions in the interest of that greater good that leads to the suffering of innocents.

Let's face it, he didn't become Emo Kvothe by being a victim of evil, he became Emo Kvothe by dwelling on the outcomes of his actions.

[Pliskin]

There is this:

"Don't lie to yourself. Even the fanciest horse is still a horse. That means sooner or later, you're going to get ridden." Denna, to country girl who'd run away to the city. (WMF, c72)

I think it's fairly strongly implied that she's speaking from experience.

I don't see your point.

She's implying that sooner or later, they will demand the thing. But that doesn't mean that she accepts.

The whole point of her story is that she can't stick to one benefactor, because they're all interested in her. That's why she has to leave often, make people forget about her, and change her name. Every time.