Ashara Chose Ned

[Sansa Snow]

To me Brandon+Ashara doesn't make much sense. But because Ned never thought about Ashara or anything I find it hard to believe that they would have had an affair either. Ned maybe had a little crush or some kind of interest in her, but I don't believe he ever intented to do anything about it.

I think that Ashara was already pregnant when she turned to Stark. She had to find a husband soon and Ned being the second born son would be a safe choice. But then the rebellion started and a lot of things happened. Maybe at some spoint Ned even found out that she was already pregnant and that's why he got angry when Catelyn asked him about her.(I actually got this idea when I was watching a tv series where a noble woman got pregnant and she needed to quickly find a noble husband before the pregnancy started to show)

[The Twinslayer]

To me Brandon+Ashara doesn't make much sense. But because Ned never thought about Ashara or anything I find it hard to believe that they would have had an affair either. Ned maybe had a little crush or some kind of interest in her, but I don't believe he ever intented to do anything about it.

I don't find it strange that Ned never thought of Ashara in the limited POV chapters he had in AGOT. As others have pointed out, he never thought of his mother, either.

On fire men versus mud men, sometimes people act out of character, like Jorah winning the tournament at Lannisport. Or as Harwin said:

There's nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where's the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.

Here is Ned:

It was the year of the false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine.

[TheSpottedCat]

I'd still say Brandon is a more likely candidate for Ashara's lover than Ned. Yes, as people have said Barristan takes a very romantic view of virginity, but this would actually reinforce the theory that Brandon was the lover, not contradict it. Even if Barry knew that the affair was consensual and not a rape, he would still regard Ned as the man who dishonoured/deflowered his beloved, and hence would dislike him. On the contrary, Barry seems to think of Ned as a good and honourable man, has amiable conversations with him, and even says a good word about him to Daenerys. Why would he do that for the man that dishonoured Ashara? Also, Imsee Ashara dancing with Ned after Brandon asks her to as indicative of her liking Brandon, not Ned. Ashara and Brandon hit it off, Brandon sees his awkward little brother sitting in a corner itching to dance with a girl but too scared to ask. He asks Ashara to dance with Ned as a favour to him, and she humours him because they've been making eyes at each other all night. After the feast, Ned goes back to his tent to masturbate gloomily, and Brandon and Ashara go off to make out/have sex. Given Dornish ideals/morals it may not even have been a love affair, but a one night stand/casual sex. Ashara may not have committed suicide because of a doomed love affair, but because of losing her baby (the result of her casual sex with Brandon) and her brother in such close proximity.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Absolutely agree with the OP. I've always believed that it's Ned Stark, not

<snip>

But let's say a rumor started that Ashara slept with a Stark - maybe a garment with a Stark sigil was left behind or something. Who's Barristan more likely to believe did this, a quiet and unassuming young man, or someone with a reputation for sleeping with highborn ladies?

I think Ser Barristan simply lept to the same conclusion that so many ASOIAF fans did.

Great post, agree with most of it.

I hadn't thought of the idea that we are seeing Barristan jumping to conclusions due to Brandon's reputaion, but if true it is kinda a brilliant move by GRRM.

GRRM would have known that a large portion of his reader base (we fantasy fans are pretty nerdy) would empathize with the kid that lost out on the hot love interest because of the bad boy, and buy what he says as gospel truth... :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Given Dornish ideals/morals it may not even have been a love affair, but a one night stand/casual sex. Ashara may not have committed suicide because of a doomed love affair, but because of losing her baby (the result of her casual sex with Brandon) and her brother in such close proximity.

Ashara and her family might be Dornish, but not all Dornish share the same views about virginity or celibacy.

While I like the Dornish and I do like that they are open minded about sexuality in a way no other realm is, Dornish is home of many different types of people with different backgrounds, and different opinions about what honour and chivalry is. I'm quite sure that Lewyn's views were different from Arthur's. Prince Lewyin had a paramour while Arthur was probably keeping his vows of not having a woman. and none of them was wrong or more accurate than the other. Pretending that every Dornish is like Arianne, is like saying any latin woman is a chica caliente as, dunno, J-Lo or anything like it.

[Ygrain]

I think Ashara chose Howland. Otherwise, why in the hell the Green Men sent him to a tourney? Is there any other crannogman attending to a tourney ever? And from the looks of it, Howland paid special attention to who danced with Ashara.

I'd still say Brandon is a more likely candidate for Ashara's lover than Ned. Yes, as people have said Barristan takes a very romantic view of virginity, but this would actually reinforce the theory that Brandon was the lover, not contradict it. Even if Barry knew that the affair was consensual and not a rape, he would still regard Ned as the man who dishonoured/deflowered his beloved, and hence would dislike him. On the contrary, Barry seems to think of Ned as a good and honourable man, has amiable conversations with him, and even says a good word about him to Daenerys. Why would he do that for the man that dishonoured Ashara? Also, Imsee Ashara dancing with Ned after Brandon asks her to as indicative of her liking Brandon, not Ned. Ashara and Brandon hit it off, Brandon sees his awkward little brother sitting in a corner itching to dance with a girl but too scared to ask. He asks Ashara to dance with Ned as a favour to him, and she humours him because they've been making eyes at each other all night. After the feast, Ned goes back to his tent to masturbate gloomily, and Brandon and Ashara go off to make out/have sex. Given Dornish ideals/morals it may not even have been a love affair, but a one night stand/casual sex. Ashara may not have committed suicide because of a doomed love affair, but because of losing her baby (the result of her casual sex with Brandon) and her brother in such close proximity.

Agreed on most points. Barristan thinks highly of Ned, which would be inconsistent if Ned was the one who basically destroyed her life. The casual sex part may and may not be correct, but Barristan with his romantic attitude would definitely rather think in terms of romantic love affair than sex-drive.

Either way, some points I haven't seen mentioned (and sorry if I missed them):

- Ned never was the boy he was

- taking carnal pleasures is a sin that couldn't be laid at Ned's door (that his very first chapter)

- if he had dishonoured someone, he would have married them, there was about a year between the tourney and the Rebellion

- "everything was always for Brandon", said Ned with a bitter twist of his mouth

[Ser Leftwich]

I hadn't thought of the idea that we are seeing Barristan jumping to conclusions due to Brandon's reputaion, but if true it is kinda a brilliant move by GRRM.

How would Barristan know of Brandon's reputation? Does Brandon have 'a reputation' to the characters in universe?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

- "everything was always for Brandon", said Ned with a bitter twist of his mouth

Considering the infamous "southron ambitions" of his father, then actually marrying Ashara wouldn't be a bad idea for Ned. Dorne is as southorn as it could be. And the Daynes were in good relationships with the crown. The reason he never actually proposed a match or even got close to her, I suppose, is because Brandon wanted her, despite his betrothal to Cat. How similar to how he was trying to apologise Robert's behaviour to Lyanna's eyes.

[Ser Leftwich]

Considering the infamous "southron ambitions" of his father, then actually marrying Ashara wouldn't be a bad idea for Ned. Dorne is as southorn as it could be. And the Daynes were in good relationships with the crown. The reason he never actually proposed a match or even got close to her, I suppose, is because Brandon wanted her, despite his betrothal to Cat. How similar to how he was trying to apologise Robert's behaviour to Lyanna's eyes.

Or Brandon/Rickard told Ned that he would have to marry Ashara, as she was pregnant (or not) and discarded from Brandon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or Brandon/Rickard told Ned that he would have to marry Ashara, as she was pregnant (or not) and discarded from Brandon.

Brandon would be quite a mayor dick if he indeed asked Ned that. "Oops, I got the girl you were eyeing pregnant. Sorry, bro. Can you fix my mess? Thanks". Poor Ned. Everybody goes around getting girls pregnant and he has to take care of the babes :lol:

Random thought: if Brandon had actually found Rhaegar and asked a trial by combat, I suppose Arthur would have stepped in to fight him, both due to him offending the Prince and for dishonouring his sister. He would have died and we all would be happier.

[Ygrain]

Considering the infamous "southron ambitions" of his father, then actually marrying Ashara wouldn't be a bad idea for Ned. Dorne is as southorn as it could be. And the Daynes were in good relationships with the crown. The reason he never actually proposed a match or even got close to her, I suppose, is because Brandon wanted her, despite his betrothal to Cat. How similar to how he was trying to apologise Robert's behaviour to Lyanna's eyes.

I wonder if there might have been a moment when Ned would have mopped up after Brandon (and then either Rickard or the Daynes put a stop to it), so his marriage to Cat would be actually the second time doing so :D

Also,

did I see someone mention that Maekar's wife was a Dayne? If Dayne was good enough for a Targ prince, then she would be good enough for a Stark, as well.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I wonder if there might have been a moment when Ned would have mopped up after Brandon (and then either Rickard or the Daynes put a stop to it), so his marriage to Cat would be actually the second time doing so :D

Also,

did I see someone mention that Maekar's wife was a Dayne? If Dayne was good enough for a Targ prince, then she would be good enough for a Stark, as well.

Damn... We need to re-read Ned's chapters in aGoT with that in mind. There must be something mentioned about him having to clean up for everybody else's messes: Rhaegar's, Brandon's Robert's...

about spoiler, yes.

That kinda makes R and Arthur (long distant) cousins.

[The Twinslayer]

- taking carnal pleasures is a sin that couldn't be laid at Ned's door (that his very first chapter)

Having "huge appetites" is not a "charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark." That doesn't mean he never took a lover before he got married.

- "everything was always for Brandon", said Ned with a bitter twist of his mouth

Winterfell and Catelyn were meant for Brandon. What is left unsaid is that Ned wanted something else...perhaps the chance to settle down to a quiet life with his true love, Ashara.

[Pod The Impaler]

I'm with the OP completely on this. The Brandon theory is bullshit.

It was Ned - always Ned - who bedded made love to Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

Why else should she be so upset? Brandon? Nope.

Ned shows up after slaying her brother. Bad enough, but then she finds out he's been married off. Young love destroyed by tragedy ! She jumps into the sea.

OK, well ... If it was someone other than Ned, why would oth Edric Dayne and Harwin before believe Ned and Ashara "fell in love" at Harrenhal ? The language of the tale does not add up if it was someone other than Ned who was with Ashara.

Well there are a lot of reasons why people would think Brandon and Ashara rather than Ned and Ashara.

1st Barristan uses the term dishonored, which could mean sex or could mean rape. Even if it means sex, your still saying that someone we otherwise know to be a virgin had the balls to bang the woman who was possible the sexiest at the tourney when he didn't even have the balls to talk to her, which seems a serious stretch to me. If it means rape, then we all know it wasn't Ned, and have been told by Lady Dustin "Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted"

If Barristan remembers Harrenhal as "she might have looked to me instead of Stark", that means Ashara looked to a Stark, willingly.

As well, if dishonoured meant something like Brandon raped Ashara, you think Barristan (or Arthur) would not have gone after Brandon with a vengeance? No trial by fire, they would have gutted him.

As well, if it was Brandon, then Harwin and Edric's tale makes no sense. Not in the sense of Harwin's reluctance to hurt Arya's feelings.

No, all these reasons for the Brandon theory come down to the idea that Ashara would never willingly get with Ned if Brandon was around and available. Nope, she has to be the type who likes swaggering bad boys, because every girl is the same and that is the only kind of guy who will ever be getting some.

As well, it ignores the fact that maybe the woman (well, girl) is just as responsible for choosing a guy she wants as he is - yes, Ned may have been shy, but Ashara could have overcome that. Or maybe they just danced, then had too much wine and those inhibitions fell away and shortly after, so did their virginity. Seriously, not every bedding is some grand seduction between the pursuer and the pursued.

You want an example? Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling. Robb Stark did not "conquer" Jeyne, nor does it seem like she's some Arianne-like seductress pulling the man in like a magnet. One thing led to another and then next thing you know, their cherries are popped - his as much as hers, but guess society considered her "dishonoured" too. So Robb Stark weds Jeyne, just like that.

You want another example? Tyrion and Tysha. 13 years old, they meet by chance, and fall in love. Virginity? Gone. Marry? Yeah, OK.

So who's to say this is not the same? A boy and a girl - two virgins - meet and they like each other. And Brandon decides to be a good older brother and pretty much find a way to shove shy Ned into her arms, so his younger brother can maybe become a man. Mission accomplished ! If the whole Lyanna / Rhaegar problem had not pulled them apart, chances are Ned and Ashara would have maybe married right away as Robb and Jeyne or Tyrion and Tysha did.

Even Arianne (everyone's favourite example of a sexpot) and Daemon Sand's first time was pretty much an awkward-fest, so what is it that people expect from this Ashara situation? James Bond and Vesper Lynd? They were teenage virgins.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It was Ned - always Ned - who bedded made love to Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal.

He clumsily humped her, most likely.

[Pod The Impaler]

I'd still say Brandon is a more likely candidate for Ashara's lover than Ned. Yes, as people have said Barristan takes a very romantic view of virginity, but this would actually reinforce the theory that Brandon was the lover, not contradict it. Even if Barry knew that the affair was consensual and not a rape, he would still regard Ned as the man who dishonoured/deflowered his beloved, and hence would dislike him. On the contrary, Barry seems to think of Ned as a good and honourable man, has amiable conversations with him, and even says a good word about him to Daenerys. Why would he do that for the man that dishonoured Ashara?

Agreed on most points. Barristan thinks highly of Ned, which would be inconsistent if Ned was the one who basically destroyed her life. The casual sex part may and may not be correct, but Barristan with his romantic attitude would definitely rather think in terms of romantic love affair than sex-drive.

- if he had dishonoured someone, he would have married them, there was about a year between the tourney and the Rebellion

If Ashara had been raped or even casually "conquered", do you think Brandon Stark would have lived long enough to be martyred by Aerys as he was? No, either Barristan or Arthur would have met him blade to blade, in great anger. In this society's context, losing virginity means "dishonoured" - willing or no. (Now, there's a thought - if Brandon had to fight Petyr Baelish for the girl he's supposed to have, you think he won't be challenged by the best KG knights as they champion her honour?)

As for Ned and Ashara, they never had the chance to follow up on it - their families / sides left the tourney angrily after Rhaegar made such an obvious pass at Lyanna. Elia Martell, shamed, would take all her ladies in waiting with her back to King's landing. Rhaegar and Arthur were up to ... well, whatever, but you can be sure Elia's party was not part of it. The Starks and Baratheons would be angry at Rhaegar, no doubt with Rickard and Jon Arryn trying to keep their groups separate. And that's on top of whatever background stuff was going on with Aerys and the others.

The fact Barristan thinks highly of Ned, but sadly about the whole situation seems like support to me of the fact that Barristan believes if was Eddard, but does not hold a grudge. Did Ashara ever knew how he felt? No. Was Eddard some scumbag who just wanted a piece of tail? No. If he had been that is something Barristan would feel mad about. But what's he going to say, when this girl he wanted fell quite mutually in love with someone else, a young honourable lad who really cared about her - someone far more suited to being with her, as a husband? If Barristan cared about her, he'd feel sad, but not try to stand in the way if she felt for someone else. As well, remember Barristan is an old guy now - he's seen war tear apart many bright futures that could have been, that should have been. Ashara would perhaps not have loved him, but she would be alive, maybe have kids with the boy she loved. Or some other. That's no more Ned's fault than his own. They were both caught up in the war, just as Barristan was himself.

[Winterfell is Burning]

From a literary standpoint, it makes a lot more sense for it to be Ned.

If that's the case, the story is that Ned, the shy wolf, and the beautiful Ashara fell in love/ he, despite being honorable, ends up not resisting and sleeps with her (for those saying he was too honourable for that: he was a teenager and she was a smokin' hot girl), she gets pregnant with the child of the man she loves, but after his father and brother were horribly killed, they end in opposite sides of a war and get separated.

When they meet each other again, Ashara has lost her child, Ned is married to another and has a son (and a bastard, if she didn't know Jon was Lyanna's) and has just killed her brother. All that is too much for her to bear and she kills herself.

If it was Brandon, then the story is that she banged a hot-headed womanizer she knew was engaged to be marry and couldn't back out of the deal, and then coincidentally his brother killed hers. Great story...said no one.

If Ashara had been raped or even casually "conquered", do you think Brandon Stark would have lived long enough to be martyred by Aerys as he was? No, either Barristan or Arthur would have met him blade to blade, in great anger. In this society's context, losing virginity means "dishonoured" - willing or no. (Now, there's a thought - if Brandon had to fight Petyr Baelish for the girl he's supposed to have, you think he won't be challenged by the best KG knights as they champion her honour?)

As for Ned and Ashara, they never had the chance to follow up on it - their families / sides left the tourney angrily after Rhaegar made such an obvious pass at Lyanna. Elia Martell, shamed, would take all her ladies in waiting with her back to King's landing. Rhaegar and Arthur were up to ... well, whatever, but you can be sure Elia's party was not part of it. The Starks and Baratheons would be angry at Rhaegar, no doubt with Rickard and Jon Arryn trying to keep their groups separate. And that's on top of whatever background stuff was going on with Aerys and the others.

The fact Barristan thinks highly of Ned, but sadly about the whole situation seems like support to me of the fact that Barristan believes if was Eddard, but does not hold a grudge. Did Ashara ever knew how he felt? No. Was Eddard some scumbag who just wanted a piece of tail? No. If he had been that is something Barristan would feel mad about. But what's he going to say, when this girl he wanted fell quite mutually in love with someone else, a young honourable lad who really cared about her - someone far more suited to being with her, as a husband? If Barristan cared about her, he'd feel sad, but not try to stand in the way if she felt for someone else. As well, remember Barristan is an old guy now - he's seen war tear apart many bright futures that could have been, that should have been. Ashara would perhaps not have loved him, but she would be alive, maybe have kids with the boy she loved. Or some other. That's no more Ned's fault than his own. They were both caught up in the war, just as Barristan was himself.

:agree:

[A spoon of knife and fork]

If it was Brandon, then the story is that she banged a hot-headed womanizer she knew was engaged to be marry and couldn't back out of the deal, and then coincidentally his brother killed hers. Great story...said no one.

Perfection!!!

[Ygrain]

If Ashara had been raped or even casually "conquered", do you think Brandon Stark would have lived long enough to be martyred by Aerys as he was? No, either Barristan or Arthur would have met him blade to blade, in great anger. In this society's context, losing virginity means "dishonoured" - willing or no. (Now, there's a thought - if Brandon had to fight Petyr Baelish for the girl he's supposed to have, you think he won't be challenged by the best KG knights as they champion her honour?)

As for Ned and Ashara, they never had the chance to follow up on it - their families / sides left the tourney angrily after Rhaegar made such an obvious pass at Lyanna. Elia Martell, shamed, would take all her ladies in waiting with her back to King's landing. Rhaegar and Arthur were up to ... well, whatever, but you can be sure Elia's party was not part of it. The Starks and Baratheons would be angry at Rhaegar, no doubt with Rickard and Jon Arryn trying to keep their groups separate. And that's on top of whatever background stuff was going on with Aerys and the others.

The fact Barristan thinks highly of Ned, but sadly about the whole situation seems like support to me of the fact that Barristan believes if was Eddard, but does not hold a grudge. Did Ashara ever knew how he felt? No. Was Eddard some scumbag who just wanted a piece of tail? No. If he had been that is something Barristan would feel mad about. But what's he going to say, when this girl he wanted fell quite mutually in love with someone else, a young honourable lad who really cared about her - someone far more suited to being with her, as a husband? If Barristan cared about her, he'd feel sad, but not try to stand in the way if she felt for someone else. As well, remember Barristan is an old guy now - he's seen war tear apart many bright futures that could have been, that should have been. Ashara would perhaps not have loved him, but she would be alive, maybe have kids with the boy she loved. Or some other. That's no more Ned's fault than his own. They were both caught up in the war, just as Barristan was himself.

You do realize that you are contradicting yourself, I hope. If Brandon dishonouring Ashara by Brandon is punishable by death, then the same goes for Ned.

And, where does it come from that they left the tourney in anger, TWOIAF? I don't have the book, can you provide the quote?

No, Barristan wouldn't stand in Ashara's way, but marrying someone is one thing and being dishonoured another. Love or not, bedding a girl before marriage and not marrying her in the end destroys her reputation, her chance for another good marriage, basically all her life. There is no way Barristan wouldn't have felt grudge towards Ned because of this.

And BTW, when you bring up Harwin, you do recall that even though he tells Arya the HH version, he says he doesn't believe it himself?

[juanml82]

No, Barristan wouldn't stand in Ashara's way, but marrying someone is one thing and being dishonoured another. Love or not, bedding a girl before marriage and not marrying her in the end destroys her reputation, her chance for another good marriage, basically all her life. There is no way Barristan wouldn't have felt grudge towards Ned because of this.

It doesn't destroy her reputation among Dornishmen, though