Ashara Chose Ned

[Ygrain]

Same difference. The daynes know, and yet they give Ned the impression that Ashara and Ned were in love and named him for ned.

People assume too much that teenaged Ned Stark had the same sense of duty and honor that 30-something Ned Stark had. People almost always change a great deal between their teenaged years and when adulthood starts to really kick in (I didn't start to feel like an adult until I was close to 30 and now 25 year olds seem little different from 18 year olds to me these days). How has Ned changed?

I think that perhaps Ned only had loyalty to his family, and that the years of having to keep his sister's secret forced him to change and that "Super Honorable Ned" is more a role he plays, perhaps to help him cover for Jon. If he was a typical lord, what reason would he have to be secretive about Jon's mother or to pretend to be offended whenever someone talked about his parentage? I think maybe he started out just being secretive about it, and other people came up with their own interpretation for why Ned was like that ("He's such a serious honorable guy he can't even talk about the one time he screwed around on his wife"), and he let them believe that.

Ned who never was the boy he was and whose wench must have been a rare one to make him forget his honour for an hour, right?

I am aware that his full name is not Eddard, but it is hardly a coincidence he is called Ned.

All Ed- names can be nicked as Ned.

[juanml82]

Robert also says that the Jon's mother must have been a pretty amazing woman to make young Ned set aside his precious honour. Clearly young Ned had honour and it was precious to him, just as old Ned did.

It is abundantly clear that young Ned was the same character as old Ned, just as young Robert was the same character as old Robert. This is not people making assumptions, its reading the clues that GRRM provided in the text. GRRM deliberately wrote clues in the text that point to these characters being the same in their youth as when we see them later. The only assumption being made is by people who claim "maybe they have changed over time, people do" and that assumption is counter-textual. Yes, many people do change over time, but not, according to what GRRM has written, these two people.

The argument about Catelyn's description of the wedding night is an irrelevant side track. Her statement merely says that he was dutiful rather than passionate. That relates to the fact that they had never met before and the wedding was forced on him (them both actually) at relatively short notice. It says nothing at all about his 'experience' either way.

You seem to be ignoring the point. Ned Dayne is 12 years old commenting on events close to 20 years past, and his admitted source is likely not a lot older. He is not a solid pointer for what the older generation of Daynes know or knew, the 'House knowledge' for lack of a better term. Heck, he's been a page and then squire with Lord Berric Dondarrion for the last 5 years so he's not even necessarily current with 'house knowledge anyway. He was 7 when he left. 7 year olds don't get told all the House secrets.

Worse, his actual claims don't fit together and betray his youthful naiveity. Apparently not only does Ned love (and apparently fuck and impregnate) Ashara without marrying her, even though he has plenty of opportunity and no other commitments, he also fucks and impregnates Wylla. And this is the same Ned who's honour was just as precious to him in his youth as it is now, who was 'never the boy he was' and who 'could not be accused of knowing how to take his pleasures'?

No, thats clearly and obviously a BS scenario.

'The Daynes' believe Wylla to be Jon's mum, and therefore Ned's lover. They claim Ashara committed suicide. Apparently there was a still born baby, and surely that news getting out (to Barristan) must have been with official Dayne support, whether it is true or not.

You can't possibly sit there and tell me that the Daynes believe Ned Stark impregnanted Ashara, and impregnanted Wylla, Ned took Jon away to Winterfell and Ashara committed suicide, and the Daynes honour that by naming their next heir born after Ned (nickname)?

Thats ridiculous.

Try this on for something that actually makes sense.

Ned didn't get Ashara pregnant. He's not responsible for her disgrace and suicide and didn't owe her any responsibility to marry her. As far as they know, Wylla was his squeeze and Jon his bastard (or they are in on R+L=J and know Wylla wasn't really his squeeze etc) and Ashara not connected to him (sexually at least). But he did bring back their legendary, unique, House foundational artifact Dawn, when he could legitimately have kept it as spoils of war. So they indirectly honour him by naming their next heir with a name that can have the same nickname.

Why is Ned Dayne knowing about Ashara's stillborn, or not, important in any way?

Its very simple. If N+A then what the Daynes as a House apparently know is that Ned Stark impregnated Ashara, didn't marry her despite having opportunity and being unentangled, then impregnated Wylla as well, caused Ashara to commit suicide and took baby Jon away from his mother Wylla. And the Daynes think he's a great fellow for all this? And Wylla, who replaced the dishonoured Ashara in Ned's bed, is an honoured staff member at Starfall?

Mind boggling.

All the Wylla deal ends up coming back at "Wylla is a cover up of either Ashara or Lyanna and the older Daynes are in it".

Keeping ancestral swords as spoils of war doesn't seem honorable, though, as we see with Robb asking for both Ned's dead body and Ice back and Tyrion granting that he'll have Ice back once he bends the knee. We never read of VS swords passing down as spoils of war, either.

But I do wonder what was the relationship between Arthur Dayne and the rest of his family and what the Daynes thought of whatever Arthur was doing through the war.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

@winters winds. The entire point is that there is no evidence of Brandon bedding Ashara either which is why THAT theory is not one I agree with.

Believe whatever you want but there have been great contributions from both sides in this thread. Can't say the same about your post.

[Winterfell is Burning]

If Ned slept with Ashara, wouldn't he ask for her hand in marriage?

Ned would probably talk with his father first. Rickard Stark strikes me as someone unlikely to accept that union since it wasn't all that great politically wise. Or it's possible he simply told Ned to wait until Brandon gets married.

Or it's possible he asked and she refused, being Dornish and all.

Yes. I think some people put too much stock in Robert's statement that Ned was never the boy he was. This comes from Robert, who is the quintessential party boy. Also, Robert says this even though he believes Ned has a bastard. If you analyze it closely, Robert is saying: you lead a more boring life, because I have 14

Yeah, I find hard to believe Ned was around Robert for so many years and never slept with a single girl. This would make him the teenage boy with the most self-control in the history of mankind.

[The Once and Future King]

There is no problem with being a good decent honorable man and still having a bastard.

Ned was the second son of Winterfell not the second in command to the High Septon or another sworn position (kingsguard, nights watch)

[Hangover of the Morning]

There is no problem with being a good decent honorable man and still having a bastard.

Ned was the second son of Winterfell not the second in command to the High Septon or another sworn position (kingsguard, nights watch)

Of course not. None of the readers would think any less of Ned if indeed he had some good times in his youth but we simply think that from what we can gather from the text, it is unlikely.

There's zero hints in Ned's POV to suggest that he might have gotten a highborn lady pregnant, especially one who as a consequence of his actions killed herself. It's safe to assume that Ned would be pretty haunted by that memory.

[Bironic]

Ned would probably talk with his father first. Rickard Stark strikes me as someone unlikely to accept that union since it wasn't all that great politically wise. Or it's possible he simply told Ned to wait until Brandon gets married.

Ned was only a second son, certainly there were other matches, but the Dayne match wouldn't be bad, after all they had a connection to the Targaryens (Aerys great-grandmother was a dayne and rhaegars best buddy on the Kingsguard was a dayne too, they are a first men house, are one of the major dornish houses with a strong warrior reputation, had perhaps ties to house martell as well) I think Rickard could have agreed.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Of course not. None of the readers wouldn't think any less of Ned if indeed he had some good times in his youth but we simply think that from what we can gather from the text, it is unlikely.

Hmm, at the risk of TMI, having had several experiences in my youth successfully seducing shy, serious virginal boys (my type I guess), I'm probably biased against the idea that someone being shy, serious, and virginal is any impediment to successfully getting them into bed.

Ned > :smileysex: < Ashara

There's zero hints in Ned's POV to suggest that he might have gotten a highborn lady pregnant, especially one who as a consequence of his actions killed herself. It's safe to assume that Ned would be pretty haunted by that memory.

Ned shows a lot of signs of being haunted, though! Especially early in his marriage to Cat when he was apparently very grumpy indeed (and that was before he knew about Lyanna and Jon)

[Ser Leftwich]

Ned shows a lot of signs of being haunted, though! Especially early in his marriage to Cat when he was apparently very grumpy indeed (and that was before he knew about Lyanna and Jon)

Ned is haunted, yes, but what is he haunted about between his marriage to Cat and when he finds Lyanna? Examples?

(Anything, besides the actual wedding, about Ned being 'grumpy' when he and Cat were together was at Winterfell, which is after Ned found Lyanna.)

[corbon]

Yeah, I find hard to believe Ned was around Robert for so many years and never slept with a single girl. This would make him the teenage boy with the most self-control in the history of mankind.

Its actually kind of fitting though, looked at the right way. Its not just 'self control', its a reaction to his older brother Brandon, and friend Robert's excessive natures. By all accounts both of them are somewhat careless of others and irresponsible, and the shy boy who actually thinks and cares about people has basically two ways to go - follow them into excess or react in the opposite direction (of course, there are always shades in between, in truth).

All the cues and hints that GRRM have revealed to us point to Ned going the 'opposite reactive' way.

Hmm, at the risk of TMI, having had several experiences in my youth successfully seducing shy, serious virginal boys (my type I guess), I'm probably biased against the idea that someone being shy, serious, and virginal is any impediment to successfully getting them into bed.

Ned > :smileysex: < Ashara

You can only be successful though if thats what the 'victim' really wants. And you work at it.

The evidence we have lends towards that not being what this particular victim wants. And there is zero evidence that suggests Ashara ever tried to work at it, or even wanted to. All we have is that she danced with him once, after being asked to by Brandon. Everything else is later gossip by people who weren't around and comes from the presumed result of a liason, not from the liason itself

Ned shows a lot of signs of being haunted, though! Especially early in his marriage to Cat when he was apparently very grumpy indeed (and that was before he knew about Lyanna and Jon)

Huh?

They had less than a week together then he left, and when he next saw Catelyn at Winterfell Jon was already in there.

I have no idea where you are getting 'grumpy' from.

All we have is that after a hasty arranged marriage, not his choice but politically necessary, to a girl he'd never met before, he was dutiful rather than passionate in the marriage bed on their first night. Thats it.

ETA: Oh do you mean 'grumpy' when he went all icy at Catelyn when she asked him if Ashara was Jon's mum?

If so, err, well, you seem to have some serious confusion there. The subject of that conversation was Jon, rather than Ashara (check his precise response), so he most certainly knew about Lyanna and Jon already then. That was after the war, back at Winterfell, not in the short time the had together in the Riverlands immediately after they were married.

Rough timeline notes:

Battle of Bells is fought (Denys Arryn dies).

Rebel alliance is sealed with Jon Arryn m Lysa Tully and Eddard Stark m Catelyn Tully (who had never seen Ned before their wedding day).

Ned and Cat have a few days or so together.

Rebellion continues and Ned marches off.

...

Rebellion ends, Cat births Robb, still at Riverrun

Cat returns to Winterfell with baby Robb and Maester Lewyn, finding Jon already there with a wetnurse.

Ned returns to Winterfell (maybe Jon was sent first while Ned met Robert, maybe Ned was just 'out' when Catelyn got there)

...

Catelyn hearing servants gossiping about Ashara Dayne being Jon Snow's mum asks Ned, who gets all icy cold and tells her never to ask about Jon.

ETA2: Ahh, Ser Leftwich already cleared that up, sorry

[Ygrain]

Ned shows a lot of signs of being haunted, though! Especially early in his marriage to Cat when he was apparently very grumpy indeed (and that was before he knew about Lyanna and Jon)

Yes, he is haunted - by his promises to Lyanna and circumstances of her death, and the price he paid to keep those promises.

[Stark Vader]

I'm another who thinks that just because someone is shy, and private doesn't mean they'd never get into bed with someone they were crazy in love with, Ned was 17 at the time...I don't think he'd have been able to stop himself. Think about how often women had children out of wedlock despite major taboos surrounding sex. People do what they feel in the moment, Brandon bedded a bunch of highborns inspite of viriginty being a commodity at the time.

Ned bedded Cat on their wedding night too, I mean a perfect stranger, that takes some balls.

People were getting laid,it's just a very human thing to do.

[Pod The Impaler]

Hmm, at the risk of TMI, having had several experiences in my youth successfully seducing shy, serious virginal boys (my type I guess), I'm probably biased against the idea that someone being shy, serious, and virginal is any impediment to successfully getting them into bed.

Ned > :smileysex: < Ashara

On behalf of all such guys, we salute you. :cheers:

I'm another who thinks that just because someone is shy, and private doesn't mean they'd never get into bed with someone they were crazy in love with, Ned was 17 at the time...I don't think he'd have been able to stop himself. Think about how often women had children out of wedlock despite major taboos surrounding sex. People do what they feel in the moment, Brandon bedded a bunch of highborns inspite of viriginty being a commodity at the time.

Really. Why do people find it hard to see young Ned as ... young. Being introverted doesn't mean you have a heart of stone. It just means you're guarded about your emotions.

If Ashara was able to get Ned alone, after they danced, that's a whole other set of conditions. Or maybe she was introverted too, but they really did fall for each other.

Come on, think like a 16 year old. People get laid.

[Ygrain]

It's not just a matter of Ned being introverted - it's a matter of him being introverted AND honourable.

BTW, do you think that Robb would have gone ahead and slept with Jeyne if not for the huge emotional shock of Bran and Rickon's death? And even in this very human, very understandable situation, his first thought is to make things right with Jeyne, no matter the personal and political cost.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not just a matter of Ned being introverted - it's a matter of him being introverted AND honourable.

Rather than that... I think he did not want to be another Robert or Brandon.

[Pod The Impaler]

Rather than that... I think he did not want to be another Robert or Brandon.

Losing his virginity to exactly one girl he's fallen in love with and then perhaps wanting to marry her does not make him a Brandon or a Robert.

Nobody would be dishonoured if he followed through. He just never got the chance to.

It would be considered something uncommon, but un-arranged marriages can happen. And unlike Robb, he was not promised to anyone at the time.

[corbon]

I'm another who thinks that just because someone is shy, and private doesn't mean they'd never get into bed with someone they were crazy in love with,

Sure, its not impossible.

But there is no evidence of Ned being crazy in love. And if he was 'crazy in love' then its very strange he never thinks of Ashara ever (the usual argument against this being that its too painful and he also never thinks of Lyanna, which is outright false, he frequently thinks of Lyanna which is very painful to him).

And also, see below. GRRM actually tells us that Ned wasn't like this.

Ned was 17 at the time...I don't think he'd have been able to stop himself.

And thats even more ignorant and bigoted (against young men/boys, assuming its impossible they can control themselves) than the false argument that 'some people insist he couldn't have slept with her' (its not that he couldn't be like that, its that GRRM tells us that he wasn't like that.

The fact is, the evidence we are given of his character, his thoughts, his memories and the way others characterise him even as a young man, says that he was very very definitely the type who could and did control himself.

That doesn't mean he couldn't have slipped up (indeed, the world, including Robert who knew him best, merely assumes he did) - but if he had done so, it, or the feelings behind it, would surely have come through in his recollections and feelings in at least some small way.

It quite starkly does not.

Think about how often women had children out of wedlock despite major taboos surrounding sex. People do what they feel in the moment, Brandon bedded a bunch of highborns inspite of viriginty being a commodity at the time.

Actually, Brandon bedded one that we know of, maybe a second (Ashara). The point is that even that one (Barbrey) puts him far ahead of Ned in the character and history stakes.

Ned bedded Cat on their wedding night too, I mean a perfect stranger, that takes some balls.

Not particularly. Its a duty, the same as its a duty for Cersei to sleep with Robert (at least enough to provide heirs). Part of the job requirements of a nobleman and his wife are to beget heirs, especially in a time of war when they, especially he, could easily die very soon. A clear and clean succession plan is the responsibility of every good leader, lest chaos follow his (or her) departure.

And according to Cat, thats exactly how he approached it.

On behalf of all such guys, we salute you. :cheers:

Heh, seconded. Where were you when I was that age? :D

Really. Why do people find it hard to see young Ned as ... young. Being introverted doesn't mean you have a heart of stone. It just means you're guarded about your emotions.

If Ashara was able to get Ned alone, after they danced, that's a whole other set of conditions. Or maybe she was introverted too, but they really did fall for each other.

Because of what is in the text, what GRRM told us.

That Ned was 'never the boy he was'.

"She must have been a rare wench to make Lord Stark forget his honor" (talking of Jon Snow's mother, so young Ned).

Yes, Ned Stark could have been the type of young man who got lost in his emotions and fell in love with Ashara and slept with her and got her pregnant. Many young men are, or would have. Except GRRM shows us he was not.

[Mithras]

Barristan is crazy in love with Ashara and he thinks her all the time. Ned never thought about Ashara like that.

[Pod The Impaler]

Because of what is in the text, what GRRM told us.

That Ned was 'never the boy he was'.

"She must have been a rare wench to make Lord Stark forget his honor" (talking of Jon Snow's mother, so young Ned).

Yes, Ned Stark could have been the type of young man who got lost in his emotions and fell in love with Ashara and slept with her and got her pregnant. Many young men are, or would have. Except GRRM shows us he was not.

This point keeps being brought up, but the context is conveniently forgotten:

This is not GRRM the author talking about Ned, it is the character Robert Baratheon - a man for whom fidelity to any single woman, or any other act of self-discipline, was too difficult to bother with. So to say that Robert views Ned as an overly sober and serious stick in the mud is really not saying anything much at all. The statement itself is coming from a guy who has banged maybe 1000 women, reminiscing about his friend who may have banged 2 or 3, and certainly never cheated since he came home from that first war. By Robert's standards, this counts as chastity. In relative terms, 16 year old Ned is not one for fooling around compared to Robert, but then Robert never really valued the girls he was bedding; he was fairly cynical.

Eddard Stark was almost infamously honourable. However, exploring that concept more deeply, be it young Ned or older Ned, one thing about Eddard Stark is that his feelings, as expressed, are sincere. Even older and wiser Ned was not very good at deception or tolerating injustice for the sake of self-interest. If he ever spoke an untruth, it was not for his own gain. So strictly speaking, the pattern here is that if Ned does something major, it's because he really means it. So in other words, young Ned's honour in this case just means he's not going to have some meaningless encounter just for the fun of getting laid.

And add this other factor: Starks seem to be reserved, even dour, but they are not truly unemotional. Brandon was cocky and impatient, but clearly also felt emotional extremes. Lyanna may have had an iron will, but she was passionate. The next generation is much the same: Robb and Jon both fight with their hearts, and lose theirs to girls they met by chance. Sansa's joys and sorrows run pretty deep, even when on the surface she is acting reserved. Arya is all wolf-blood, feeling emotions and convictions fiercely. Bran often wears his heart on his sleeve. Rickon is wild.

Now consider a young Ned Stark, in the larger Stark context. He is introverted, but that just means he is guarded about expressing emotions, not immune from having them. He is honourable, but that just means that if he is going to express affection for a girl and go all the way with her, it is love that would drive him to it, not mere lust and a chance for a meaningless encounter. And those Stark passions are there, the wolf-blood, the sort that drive a man boy to do what feels right regardless of social ettiquette or any grubby impure political concerns.

In other words, Ned was exactly the sort of boy who was prone to fall in love with Ashara Dayne and, if she was equally willing and broke through his shyness, follow his heart all the way from kisses to popped cherries to (eventually, had it progressed) a marriage.

[corbon]

This point keeps being brought up, but the context is conveniently forgotten:

This is not GRRM the author talking about Ned, it is the character Robert Baratheon - a man for whom fidelity to any single woman, or any other act of self-discipline, was too difficult to bother with. So to say that Robert views Ned as an overly sober and serious stick in the mud is really not saying anything much at all.

Bollocks.

Even if it was just Robert, it is still what GRRM chose to give us, so it is GRRM talking to us. We have to be careful about listening, yes, because hes a tricksy fellow is GRRM, but his clues are consistent across the text here.

But its not just Robert. In Jojen and Meera's story Ned is the shy wolf, too quiet and shy to even get off his bench at the biggest party on the continent.

Plus you have Catelyn's characterisation of young Ned.

So you have three different sources, all painting a consistent picture of young Ned, and all match the same character older Ned shows. Its quite ridiculous to insist that young Ned was different from every thing we know just to suit a theory that has no other solid backing.

And add this other factor: Starks seem to be reserved, even dour, but they are not truly unemotional.

No they do not Ned seems to be dour and reserved. The other Starks are all different. if anything Ned is the odd one out - a reaction perhaps to the excesses and/or carelessness around him.

In other words, Ned was exactly the sort of boy who was prone to fall in love with Ashara Dayne and, if she was equally willing and broke through his shyness, follow his heart all the way from kisses to popped cherries to (eventually, had it progressed) a marriage.

Except there was no marriage, even though there was plenty of opportunity.

So not only are we now inventing new characterisations that go against three different souurces, we are doing so just to get to a result that didn't happen even though every opportunity was there for it to do so.

How far is it necessary to go in pursuit of this thing?