Ashara Chose Ned

[The Twinslayer]

Was that even described in any way? I don't recall it.

ASOS: "Even when he took her maidenhead, their love had more of duty to it than of passion."

That does not sound like a twenty year old man with no prior experience, on his wedding night with a beautiful woman. It sounds like an experienced man who is in love with someone else.

[David Selig]

ASOS: "Even when he took her maidenhead, their love had more of duty to it than of passion."

That does not sound like a twenty year old man with no prior experience, on his wedding night with a beautiful woman. It sounds like an experienced man who is in love with someone else.

Or like a man who just recently lost father and brother, has to fight a war to survive and is forced by the circumstances to marry a woman he didn't at all in order to win a war.

[Ser Leftwich]

Its clear from Ned Dayne that the daynes hold no grudge against Ned even though they DO believe that Ashara had his child and died for it. So the text proves you wrong on this point.

The text proves that you are not very familiar with it. First, we don't know what the Daynes think or know. All we have is a word of a twelve-year-old who says that Ned and Ashara were in love but thinks that Ned fathered a child on Wylla, and his knowledge comes from Allyria whose age is unknown but, given that she was only betrothed to Berric, is probably not much older than Ned himself.

Just going to post this exchange again. :agree:

When you get basic facts from the books wrong, people are generally less likely to accept your interpretations.

[The Twinslayer]

Or like a man who just recently lost father and brother, has to fight a war to survive and is forced by the circumstances to marry a woman he didn't at all in order to win a war.

Maybe. However there is an interesting parrallel between Ned's wedding night with Catelyn, where he did his "duty", and Dany's wedding night with Hizdahr, where Dany thought she had to do her duty. Remember, Dany is having a terrible time trying to govern Meereen, but she always enjoys Daario's company. Much like Ned, Dany then has to marry for "her duty." On her wedding night, she does her duty and then sits there thinking about Daario. It is not far-fetched to think that after Ned did his duty with Catelyn, he sat there thinking about Ashara.

Also, there is a strong contrast between Ned on his wedding night versus his memory of the Tournament at Harrenhal, were he first met Ashara. He describes like this: "It was the year of the false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine."

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Just going to post this exchange again. :agree:

When you get basic facts from the books wrong, people are generally less likely to accept your interpretations.

Why do you think that Ned dayne wouldn't have known about Asharas child also? If he thought they were in love it logically follows that her stillborn babe would have been Eddards also.

I imagine it wasn't brought up because GRRM was saving that revelation for Barristan.

[Ygrain]

Why do you think that Ned dayne wouldn't have known about Asharas child also? If he thought they were in love it logically follows that her stillborn babe would have been Eddards also.

I imagine it wasn't brought up because GRRM was saving that revelation for Barristan.

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother... Jon Snow?”

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair... “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister. “‘ Arya missed Jon most of all. just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “if you lie I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the... the Lord of Starfall.”

Behind them, Gendry groaned. “Lords and ladies,” he proclaimed in a disgusted tone. Arya plucked a withered crabapple off a passing branch and whipped it at him, bouncing it off his thick bull head. “Ow,” he said. “That hurt.” He felt the skin above his eye. “What kind of lady throws crabapples at people?”

“The bad kind,” said Arya, suddenly contrite. She turned back to Ned. “I’m sorry I didn’t know who you were. My lord.”

“The fault is mine, my lady.” He was very polite.

Jon has a mother. Wylla, her name is Wylla. She would need to remember so she could tell him, the next time she saw him. She wondered if he would still call her “little sister.” I’m not so little anymore. He’d have to call me something else. Maybe once she got to Riverrun she could write Jon a letter and tell him what Ned Dayne had said. “There was an Arthur Dayne,” she remembered. “The one they called the Sword of the Morning.”

“My father was Ser Arthur’s elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.”

“Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled.

Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”

“No. Did he know her?”

“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”

“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”

“Her heart was broken.”

Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”

He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place...”

“Tell me.”

He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal -”

“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”

“I’m sure he did, my lady, but -”

“She was the only one he loved.”

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

Arya wished she had another crabapple to bounce off his face. “My father had honor,” she said angrily. “And we weren’t talking to you anyway. Why don’t you go back to Stoney Sept and ring that girl’s stupid bells?”

Gendry ignored that. “At least your father raised his bastard, not like mine. I don’t even know my father’s name. Some smelly drunk, I’d wager, like the others my mother dragged home from the alehouse. Whenever she got mad at me, she’d say, ‘If your father was here, he’d beat you bloody.’ That’s all I know of him.” He spat. “Well, if he was here now, might be I’d beat him bloody. But he’s dead, I figure, and your father’s dead too, so what does it matter who he lay with?”

It mattered to Arya, though she could not have said why. Ned was trying to apologize for upsetting her, but she did not want to hear it. She pressed her heels into her horse and left them both. Anguy the Archer was riding a few yards ahead. When she caught up with him, she said, “Dornishmen lie, don’t they?”

“They’re famous for it.” The bowman grinned. “Of course, they say the same of us marchers, so there you are. What’s the trouble now? Ned’s a good lad...”

“He’s just a stupid liar.” Arya left the trail, leapt a rotten log and splashed across a streambed, ignoring the shouts of the outlaws behind her. They just want to tell me more lies. She thought about trying to get away from them, but there were too many and they knew these lands too well. What was the use of running if they caught you?

It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. “Where do you think you’re going, milady? You shouldn’t run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things.”

“I’m not afraid,” she said. “That boy Ned said...”

“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

“She killed herself, though,” said Arya uncertainly. “Ned says she jumped from a tower into the sea.”

“So she did,” Harwin admitted, as he led her back, “but that was for grief, I’d wager. She’d lost a brother, the Sword of the Morning.” He shook his head. “Let it lie, my lady. They’re dead, all of them. Let it lie... and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother.”

Now, where is there any mention of Ashara's stillborn child?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Somehow you missed the part where I said GRRM was saving that reveal for barristan in ADWD.

That is, at this point of SoS, GRRM still wants to leave open the theory that Ashara could be Jons mom. Barristans revelation that she had a stillborn daughter all but obliterates this theory.

But, it still would make sense that the Daynes know this information.

[Ygrain]

Somehow you missed the part where I said GRRM was saving that reveal for barristan in ADWD.

That is, at this point of SoS, GRRM still wants to leave open the theory that Ashara could be Jons mom. Barristans revelation that she had a stillborn daughter all but obliterates this theory.

But, it still would make sense that the Daynes know this information.

Do not presume. The adult Daynes certainly know. Ned apparently doesn't have an idea - that's why we readers hear only from Barry.

[The Twinslayer]

That is, at this point of SoS, GRRM still wants to leave open the theory that Ashara could be Jons mom. Barristans revelation that she had a stillborn daughter all but obliterates this theory.

But, it still would make sense that the Daynes know this information.

Maybe. But maybe not. Barristan's thoughts are not completely reliable. He thinks that "All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes." But

TWOIAF says that Aegon V's youngest son never wed

Cat, Cersei and others have heard a rumor that Ashara had a son by Ned -- Jon Snow. Barristan heard from an unnamed source that Ashara had a still born daughter. Possibility 1 -- Cat & Cersei are right and Barristan is wrong. Possibility 2 -- Barristan is right and Cat & Cersei are wrong. Possibility 3 -- the are all right, either becuase Ashara had twins (boy Jon born alive and girl still born), or because Ashara was pregnant twice, once with the still born daughter and a second time with Jon.

But I think you are right about Ned Dayne. If Barristan knew back in King's Landing, then it must be common knowledge at Starfall and little Ned would have picked it up.

[Ser Leftwich]

Maybe. But maybe not. Barristan's thoughts are not completely reliable. He thinks that "All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes." But

TWOIAF says that Aegon V's youngest son never wed

Cat, Cersei and others have heard a rumor that Ashara had a son by Ned -- Jon Snow. Barristan heard from an unnamed source that Ashara had a still born daughter. Possibility 1 -- Cat & Cersei are right and Barristan is wrong. Possibility 2 -- Barristan is right and Cat & Cersei are wrong. Possibility 3 -- the are all right, either becuase Ashara had twins (boy Jon born alive and girl still born), or because Ashara was pregnant twice, once with the still born daughter and a second time with Jon.

But I think you are right about Ned Dayne. If Barristan knew back in King's Landing, then it must be common knowledge at Starfall and little Ned would have picked it up.

Another possibility is Cersei, Catelyn, and Barristan were all wrong.

We also don't know where Ashara was in labor and how that relates to how Barristan knows what he knows and where he was.

Why do you think that Ned dayne wouldn't have known about Asharas child also? If he thought they were in love it logically follows that her stillborn babe would have been Eddards also.

I imagine it wasn't brought up because GRRM was saving that revelation for Barristan.

Because Ned Dayne does not mention any child, stillborn or live, that Ashara had with anyone, let alone with Ned.

Nothing in the text gives any indication that any Dayne thought Ashara had a child with Ned.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Set leftwich, how could the daynes not know about Asharas baby at all? That seems crazy to me.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Do not presume. The adult Daynes certainly know. Ned apparently doesn't have an idea - that's why we readers hear only from Barry.

Same difference. The daynes know, and yet they give Ned the impression that Ashara and Ned were in love and named him for ned.

[Ser Leftwich]

Set leftwich, how could the daynes not know about Asharas baby at all? That seems crazy to me.

Because there is nothing in the books that says the Daynes know. Catelyn, Cersei, and Barristan have all heard it second (or third) hand. The two Daynes (Edric and Gerold) we have met do not mention any baby. So, we cannot assume that the Daynes know anything about it.

I agree it is unlikely from a general logical analysis, but there is nothing in the books, therefore that is not an assumption I would make.

[Taenqyrhae]

People assume too much that teenaged Ned Stark had the same sense of duty and honor that 30-something Ned Stark had. People almost always change a great deal between their teenaged years and when adulthood starts to really kick in (I didn't start to feel like an adult until I was close to 30 and now 25 year olds seem little different from 18 year olds to me these days). How has Ned changed?

I think that perhaps Ned only had loyalty to his family, and that the years of having to keep his sister's secret forced him to change and that "Super Honorable Ned" is more a role he plays, perhaps to help him cover for Jon. If he was a typical lord, what reason would he have to be secretive about Jon's mother or to pretend to be offended whenever someone talked about his parentage? I think maybe he started out just being secretive about it, and other people came up with their own interpretation for why Ned was like that ("He's such a serious honorable guy he can't even talk about the one time he screwed around on his wife"), and he let them believe that.

[Anath]

Same difference. The daynes know, and yet they give Ned the impression that Ashara and Ned were in love and named him for ned.

They did not name him for Ned. He's Edric, not Eddard. Just a coincidence.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

They did not name him for Ned. He's Edric, not Eddard. Just a coincidence.

I am aware that his full name is not Eddard, but it is hardly a coincidence he is called Ned.

[Lord Hyrule]

Ser Leftwich, you my good sir, are awesome. Not only have you provided actual facts from the books (yes, words written by the author and actually part of the story, not speculation or opinions) but you have proven this speculation is rather far fetched.

The original poster seems to be riding on his own opinions and a fantasy in which Ned bedded Ashara. In some form I see this opinionated speculation to end with Jon Snow is Ned/Asharas child.

Spoon/Knife, you have not provided no factual information from the books, as have other posters here.

Somehow you missed the part where I said GRRM was saving that reveal for barristan in ADWD.

That is, at this point of SoS, GRRM still wants to leave open the theory that Ashara could be Jons mom.

Oh, there it is.

One thing I strongly dislike about speculations and theories are the lack of proof. This thread lacks proof of your opinion and your theory.

You didn't even provide textual evidence of your claim. I cannot agree with you when their is factual evidence stating otherwise, specifically against your theory/speculation, or whatever this thread was about.

Even with L+R=J, there is at least textual evidence that they might have fathered Jon Snow.

Drop this ridiculous claim of yours and admit defeat, you'll make a fool of yourself as time goes on.

[Pod The Impaler]

ASOS: "Even when he took her maidenhead, their love had more of duty to it than of passion."

That does not sound like a twenty year old man with no prior experience, on his wedding night with a beautiful woman. It sounds like an experienced man who is in love with someone else.

Or like a man who just recently lost father and brother, has to fight a war to survive and is forced by the circumstances to marry a woman he didn't at all in order to win a war.

Or both of these at the same time.

[corbon]

Yes. I think some people put too much stock in Robert's statement that Ned was never the boy he was. This comes from Robert, who is the quintessential party boy. Also, Robert says this even though he believes Ned has a bastard. If you analyze it closely, Robert is saying: you lead a more boring life, because I have 14 bastards while you only have one.Catelyn's description of their wedding night doesn't make him sound inexperienced. It makes him sound unenthusiastic to be with her.

Robert also says that the Jon's mother must have been a pretty amazing woman to make young Ned set aside his precious honour. Clearly young Ned had honour and it was precious to him, just as old Ned did.

It is abundantly clear that young Ned was the same character as old Ned, just as young Robert was the same character as old Robert. This is not people making assumptions, its reading the clues that GRRM provided in the text. GRRM deliberately wrote clues in the text that point to these characters being the same in their youth as when we see them later. The only assumption being made is by people who claim "maybe they have changed over time, people do" and that assumption is counter-textual. Yes, many people do change over time, but not, according to what GRRM has written, these two people.

The argument about Catelyn's description of the wedding night is an irrelevant side track. Her statement merely says that he was dutiful rather than passionate. That relates to the fact that they had never met before and the wedding was forced on him (them both actually) at relatively short notice. It says nothing at all about his 'experience' either way.

Same difference. The daynes know, and yet they give Ned the impression that Ashara and Ned were in love and named him for ned.

You seem to be ignoring the point. Ned Dayne is 12 years old commenting on events close to 20 years past, and his admitted source is likely not a lot older. He is not a solid pointer for what the older generation of Daynes know or knew, the 'House knowledge' for lack of a better term. Heck, he's been a page and then squire with Lord Berric Dondarrion for the last 5 years so he's not even necessarily current with 'house knowledge anyway. He was 7 when he left. 7 year olds don't get told all the House secrets.

Worse, his actual claims don't fit together and betray his youthful naiveity. Apparently not only does Ned love (and apparently fuck and impregnate) Ashara without marrying her, even though he has plenty of opportunity and no other commitments, he also fucks and impregnates Wylla. And this is the same Ned who's honour was just as precious to him in his youth as it is now, who was 'never the boy he was' and who 'could not be accused of knowing how to take his pleasures'?

No, thats clearly and obviously a BS scenario.

'The Daynes' believe Wylla to be Jon's mum, and therefore Ned's lover. They claim Ashara committed suicide. Apparently there was a still born baby, and surely that news getting out (to Barristan) must have been with official Dayne support, whether it is true or not.

You can't possibly sit there and tell me that the Daynes believe Ned Stark impregnanted Ashara, and impregnanted Wylla, Ned took Jon away to Winterfell and Ashara committed suicide, and the Daynes honour that by naming their next heir born after Ned (nickname)?

Thats ridiculous.

Try this on for something that actually makes sense.

Ned didn't get Ashara pregnant. He's not responsible for her disgrace and suicide and didn't owe her any responsibility to marry her. As far as they know, Wylla was his squeeze and Jon his bastard (or they are in on R+L=J and know Wylla wasn't really his squeeze etc) and Ashara not connected to him (sexually at least). But he did bring back their legendary, unique, House foundational artifact Dawn, when he could legitimately have kept it as spoils of war. So they indirectly honour him by naming their next heir with a name that can have the same nickname.

Why do you think that Ned dayne wouldn't have known about Asharas child also? If he thought they were in love it logically follows that her stillborn babe would have been Eddards also.

I imagine it wasn't brought up because GRRM was saving that revelation for Barristan.

Why is Ned Dayne knowing about Ashara's stillborn, or not, important in any way?

Its very simple. If N+A then what the Daynes as a House apparently know is that Ned Stark impregnated Ashara, didn't marry her despite having opportunity and being unentangled, then impregnated Wylla as well, caused Ashara to commit suicide and took baby Jon away from his mother Wylla. And the Daynes think he's a great fellow for all this? And Wylla, who replaced the dishonoured Ashara in Ned's bed, is an honoured staff member at Starfall?

Mind boggling.

[corbon]

Set leftwich, how could the daynes not know about Asharas baby at all? That seems crazy to me.

That assumes there was a baby, and Barristan wasn't fed disinformation.

More relevantly, what 12 year old Ned Dayne knows is not necessarily what the older Daynes know.

Ashara having a stillborn bastard many years before his birth is not necessarily something that would be shared to the wee lad. Barristan on the other hand would have been very interested to know at the time and probably would have made discrete enquiries. Remember that if the pregnancy came from Harrenhal, then the stillborth would be months before the rebellion started and Barristan would have had ready proximity to an excellent private source - Ashara's brother, his fellow KG Ser Arthur Dayne, who would probably have trusted him to be discrete and/or could also have easily fed him false (but trusted) information.

Ned Dayne definitely 'knows' this much.

- Ned Stark impregnated Wylla with Jon (probably not actually true)

- Ned Stark and Ashara were apparently in love (may or may not be true)

He probably 'knows' this much

- Ashara committed suicide, it was very tragic (this may or may not be true)

He might 'know' this much, but it isn't necessary and seems unlikely given what it shows up, and his very young age

- Ashara had a stillborn baby out of wedlock (this may be true, but is from a single source who was nowhere around at the time, so also may not be true)