Ashara Chose Ned

[Ygrain]

It doesn't destroy her reputation among Dornishmen, though

In Dorne, as well. GRRM said that Arianne's sexual liberty shouldn't be taken as a standard, and either way, having sex and giving birth to a bastard are again two different things.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

In Dorne, as well. GRRM said that Arianne's sexual liberty shouldn't be taken as a standard, and either way, having sex and giving birth to a bastard are again two different things.

Anywhere you are in Westeros there would be a big difference between having an affair with someone you are promised to (officially or not), and having sex with someone and then dumping them immediately to be looked after by someone else.

Its clear from Ned Dayne that the daynes hold no grudge against Ned even though they DO believe that Ashara had his child and died for it. So the text proves you wrong on this point.

[corbon]

Some hints to the OP - if you are going to try to dissect an argument, try to make it a bit less of a blatant straw man set. Few if any of your 'setups' bore any relationship to the actual arguments they were parrotting, and adding in extra details that make them look even sillier off the bat does quite the opposite of making your post look clever.

Ive always been puzzled by the general take-away from ADWD that Brandon Stark deflowered Ashara Dayne. When I read the relevant passages in Barristans chapters, my only thought was how this continued to support the belief I already had, which is that Ashara and Ned had a love affair, which ended up leading to her possible death. I mean, Barry even says that she turned to Stark! We have previous evidence throughout all the books that they could have been in love, see Neds reaction to Catelyn about Ashara, Aryas encounter with Ned Dayne, the story Jojen tells Bran, and the general rumors about the pair that we know reached Catelyn. There are no rumors about Brandon and Ashara, as far as we know, and its hardly like anyone could get Brandon and Ned confused with each other.

1. Barry Says she turned to Stark. Yet you take that as evidence for Ned, and not Brandon. Isn't this an example of a predetermined theory influencing the interpretation of the text? Surely turning to Stark applies equally possibly to Brandon or Ned.

2. Ned's reaction is to Jon's Mother, not Ashara. He never says her name and although her name isn't heard further, thats not his demand or his action. His demand is explicitly not to enquire about Jon. He asks for Catelyns source to shut down enquiries about Jon, not about Ashara.

3. Ned Dayne's story is internally inconsistent. Its told by someone not even born at the time, who gives a source who is also probably not even born at the time (see elsewhere for discussions about Allyria) and it is clearly unreliable in the extreme. Ned loved Ashara but fucked Wylla? Ahh, no. The most likely explanation of this story is that N+A is Allyria's fantasy that paints her lost aunt in a romantically tragic portrait instead of a sad, dishonoured woman who killed herself. That might even be the family 'party line', but its highly unlikely the Daynes who were actually around Ashara believe that, though it is convenient for them for it to be believed (it both paints a much nicer picture of Ashara as a tragic romantic instead of miserable and dishoured, and also possibly covers their knowledge of a fake suicide, if that was to be the case).

4. Harwin says the story is possible (in that both Ned and Ashara were young and free of other entanglements), but doesn't believe it true.

5. Other sources (and those above in fact) come after Ned left Starfall with Jon (and Ashara committed suicide at around the same time) and come from people (Cersei and Catelyn) who were not around Ned or Ashara at the time. Those rumours are clearly 2+2=5 where Ned+Bastard(from Starfall)+SuicideAshara=> N+A=J.

Ned is a human not a robot. The fact that Ned could have fathered a bastard (or maybe even did), I think makes Neds relationship with Jon all the more poignant.

Ned is not a robot, but he is also clearly painted as a shy young man who was 'never the boy he was' and not a man who could be charged with knowing how to take his pleasures.
The poignant thing is entirely subjective.

Any thoughts? If you think Ashara chose Brandon, why? If you think she chose Ned, Id love to hear any additional evidence you have for this theory!

1. Q. What actually tells us N+A?
Long A. Meera and Jojen's story... which tells us Ned was shy, but as a generality rather than specifically of Ashara, and that Ned was sitting on his bench until Brandon got Ashara to dance with him. So nothing really. She danced with Ned, and also with others. It was Brandon who actually talked to her and got her to do something.
Ned Dayne's story... which has a source very very much weaker than first glance (he may Ashara's family but he wasn't born at the time and probably neither was his knowledge source Allyia, given she has been betrothed to Lord Beric Dondarrion for around 6 years but not married yet and is thus more likely under 18 now than late 20s or early 30s, remembering that Harrenhal was nearing to 20 years before this scene) would show and doesn't add up. Ned loved Ashara and fucked Wylla? Really? Ned?
Catelyn/Cersei etc gossip... which comes many years later, from people who weren't present at the time around either participant, and is clearly 'lead to' by a logical but inaccurate deduction from the few facts which are widely known (Ned=Bastardfrom Starfall+Suicide Ashara->N+A=J and therefore a N+A relationship. In other words sources which literally could not possibly be weaker and other leading data that we know points to a wrong conclusion.
Short A. Basically nothing remotely reliable except one source that points to Brandon as much or more than Ned if read carefully.

Its very very cleverly done. We get all this totally unreliable gossip first, then we get a story that could be interpreted to follow that gossip (but actually is neutral at best), and then we get a seemingly strong (but actually extremely weak) source backing it all up and we are basically sold. I certainly was before ADwD came out.

But once you get more information about the character and history of Brandon, and the evidence of Barristan, both from ADwD, then you need to reassess those early sources, and when you do, you see that they are actually are reallly really thin.

So, 2. character:
Ned - shy, honourable, never-the-boy he was Ned who raised a son who married a girl rather than leave her dishonoured, even at enoirmous political cost. A quintessential mud man, as bountifully (see what I did there) evidenced by his relationship and life with Catelyn.
Brandon - wild wolf, irresponsible actions, 'liked a bloody sword', 'took what he wanted', 'everything was always for him' (bitterly), better looking, more fun, better swordsman, lived hard died young. A quintessential fire man, burning out early.

3. Known history:
Ned - dutiful family man, faithful to Catelyn, father of Robb, father who raised Jon, getting a young noble maiden pregnant? And didn't marry her, or look after her in any way, despite plentiful opportunity?

4. Most reliable source we have - someone actually present in the relevant time and place, wth a particular interest in the subject:
All young girls in his experience (Ashara qualifies) foolishly choose fire men instead of mud men
Brandon - actually did deflower Lady Barbrey, a young noble maiden.

5+ are just bonus territory - the Ned never once thinking of Ashara (he does think relatively often of Lyanna), the greater general attractiveness both physically and socially of Brandon, Barristan's apparent respect of Ned and the ncongruity of that if he belived Ned ruined Ashara's life, etc etc. These are not key arguments, they just pile on the top of the real arguments like a mound of footballers after the tackle has already been made.

He then goes on to wistfully wonder how things would have been different if she turned to him instead of Stark.

He's thinking of the rebellion and the thousands of deaths and the fall of the Targaryens etc, not any chance he had of a life with Ashara.

Thing is, there are tons of rumors about Ned and Ashara, but none about Brandon or benjen. Yes, ned could have cooked these up with the daynes to protect Jon, but it seems likely that if Barristan witnessed Brandon and Ashara doing something inappropriate, there would be rumors about that.

The rumours are explained above. There wouldn't be rumours about A+B - just as there are no rumours about Brandon + Lady Barbrey. Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn at the time, he apparently knew how to be discrete.

Catelyn is not Ashara. Despite what you might think a lot of women prefer quieter plainer more serious men and are turned off by firey types like Brandon (his rages? Ew). That is my problem wih the mud vs fire analogy. It outright states that all young girls want the same thing. That's the BS.

No, the BS is your understanding and application of this argument as a general one.
In fact its application here is very very specific. Barristan thinks that in his experience all young girls think/act/choose this way. The take away for us is not the generalisation that Barristan pulls out from his personal experience, which may or may not apply to any particular individual, but that it does apply specifically to the individual young girls that form part of his experience. Who are they? Well we may not know them all, but we can be sure of several things. One, its applying to Dany, because thats how and why he's thinking that way. Two, it applies to at least one, maybe more, young girls he has experience with before Dany (in fact by his own statement it applies to all of the young girls he's had exerience of before, be that Dany +1, Dany +3 or Dany +10). So we know there is at least one other young girl in Barristan's experience who chose a man, and chose poorly, a fire man instead of a mud man. The only actual young girl we know Barristan was involved with, who also seems to have been involved with (chose) a man, and chose poorly (look at how it turned out - an out-of-wedlock pregnancy and apparently eventually suicide) is Ashara Dayne (he loved her, even if he never told her, and that counts as 'involved with, as much as Barry can be involved with any woman).
Hence, what Barry is actually telling us, indirectly, is that he believes Ashara Dayne chose a fire man. Maybe he's wrong, but he was physically around at the time, and motivated to pay attention to her, so he is by a huge margin the best source we have (not infallible, but the best data we have by far).

Yeah, for a celibate man, the "one who got away" is going to loom heavily in Barristan's mind. So any thoughts on the Starks interacting with Ashara is going to be biased.

Ashara never 'got away' as he never chased her. There is no reason for bias in his thoughts of her, with respect to Starks

Everything is so much more moving and interesting if N+A. If B+A then.. What's the poi t? We've proved some cliche about nice guys finishing last? Blah, boring...

Moving and interesting is entirely subjective, not a good guide to what might
Note that N+A or B+A is not a story which needs story balance, excitement etc. Its side data on Jon's story and the rebellion story and possibly some other stories.

How would Barristan know of Brandon's reputation? Does Brandon have 'a reputation' to the characters in universe?

He's known as the Wild Wolf in Jojen's story which suggests a certain amount of notoriety, or at least notoriety worth actions. But there's no indication that his affair with Lady Barbrey was widely known and the specific data we have on his character beyond that wild wolf characterisation and his actions post 'abduction' are personal observations by an intimate source, Lady Dustin, so we can't tell how widely known they were.

In short, we may know a lot more about Brandon that Barristan did, but we cant be sure of that.

Why else should she be so upset? Brandon? Nope.
Ned shows up after slaying her brother. Bad enough, but then she finds out he's been married off. Young love destroyed by tragedy ! She jumps into the sea.

Well, first that assumes she really did jump into the sea.
Second, note that what we have is Barristan, who probably hadn't seen her for well over a year and probably didn't know her all that deeply in the first place (chaste love from afar remember), is simply guessing why she might have done what he's heard she did. Even he doesn't find his feeble guesses particularly strong.

Also note that Ned was married off most of a year before, and that marriage was a key foundation stone in the rebel alliance, so likely to have been widely known of. Its very very unlikely Ashara didn't know of it long before Ned turned up at Starfall.

OK, well ... If it was someone other than Ned, why would oth Edric Dayne and Harwin before believe Ned and Ashara "fell in love" at Harrenhal ? The language of the tale does not add up if it was someone other than Ned who was with Ashara.

Harwin doesn't believe it.

What Ned Dayne believes is where the langauage really doesn't add up. Ned Dayne thinks Ned Stark was in love with Ashara but fucked Wylla and got her pregnant with Jon? Ned Dayne is a 12 year od boy who parrots what he has been told by others without understanding it enough to question it. And his source is likely not much (enough) older and not first hand.

As well, if it was Brandon, then Harwin and Edric's tale makes no sense. Not in the sense of Harwin's reluctance to hurt Arya's feelings.

Harwin doesn't have a story, he just agrees that Ned Dayne's story could technically be true, but he doesn't believe it.
Edric's tale already makes no sense.

Neither of them actually know anything, they are just repeated or commenting on what they've heard from others.

No, all these reasons for the Brandon theory come down to the idea that Ashara would never willingly get with Ned if Brandon was around and available. Nope, she has to be the type who likes swaggering bad boys, because every girl is the same and that is the only kind of guy who will ever be getting some.

Ugh, thats a really really bad straw man.
The characterisations/personalities of Ned and Brandon, the best source we have from the right time and place and the personal histories of both brothers all point towards B+A over N+A. Not conclusively, but very strongly. the fact that Brandon would appear to be more likely to be attractive to Ashara is purely excess to the argument, the cherry on the top but not the filling as it were (incidentally, I hate those artificial cherries and always discard them, having been brough up with real, delicious, fresh, sweet cherries as a christmas time delicacy. And I invite you to do the same to the straw man argument you have made here.).

As well, it ignores the fact that maybe the woman (well, girl) is just as responsible for choosing a guy she wants as he is

Heh, thats kind of ironic. Its usually me pointing this out countering the boorish suggestion that Ned 'owned' Ashara because he liked her (apparently first) and Brandon would have to be a tremendous asshole to 'steal' her away from his little brother's desire.

So who's to say this is not the same? A boy and a girl - two virgins - meet and they like each other. And Brandon decides to be a good older brother and pretty much find a way to shove shy Ned into her arms, so his younger brother can maybe become a man. Mission accomplished !

No one for sure.
But GRRM has given us plenty of hints leading away from this scenario. Eventually, GRRM will say this is not the same, or is the same, as he sees fit. At the moment my money would be on 'is not', but its still a gamble, not a sure thing.

From a literary standpoint, it makes a lot more sense for it to be Ned.
...
If it was Brandon, then the story is that she banged a hot-headed womanizer she knew was engaged to be marry and couldn't back out of the deal, and then coincidentally his brother killed hers. Great story...said no one.

The point is, this doesn't have to be a story that needs literary standards, a satisfying finish etc etc. Its currently nothing more than adjunct data around other stories (Jon, the Rebellion, possibly fAegon).

Its clear from Ned Dayne that the daynes hold no grudge against Ned even though they DO believe that Ashara had his child and died for it. So the text proves you wrong on this point.

Its far from clear what the Daynes in general believe. Its only clear what the juvenile Daynes who weren't around believe, and thats internally inconsistent as it is.

[Winterfell is Burning]

There's absolutely ZERO evidence Brandon slept with Ashara. None. As far as I'm concerned, that's as much fantasy as that thread suggesting Aerys used a glamour to sleep with Joanna.

[Ygrain]

There's absolutely ZERO evidence Brandon slept with Ashara. None. As far as I'm concerned, that's as much fantasy as that thread suggesting Aerys used a glamour to sleep with Joanna.

There is zero EVIDENCE that the Stark in question was Ned. Ashara was dishonoured at HH, had an illegitimate child, and a Stark was somehow involved. Lyanna is not an option, the pup Benjen too young, Rickard wasn't there. That leaves Brandon and Ned. For one of them, dishonouring Ashara would be in character, for the other out of character. You pick which one is which.

Anywhere you are in Westeros there would be a big difference between having an affair with someone you are promised to (officially or not), and having sex with someone and then dumping them immediately to be looked after by someone else.

Its clear from Ned Dayne that the daynes hold no grudge against Ned even though they DO believe that Ashara had his child and died for it. So the text proves you wrong on this point.

The text proves that you are not very familiar with it. First, we don't know what the Daynes think or know. All we have is a word of a twelve-year-old who says that Ned and Ashara were in love but thinks that Ned fathered a child on Wylla, and his knowledge comes from Allyria whose age is unknown but, given that she was only betrothed to Berric, is probably not much older than Ned himself.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Ned was not mud. Ned was not fire.

He was the water that gave life to crops, and the hail that pummeled his enemies.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

For one of them, dishonouring Ashara would be in character, for the other out of character. You pick which one is which.

I don't know who slept with Ashara, but we don't actually know what kind of person Ned was in that time. That isn't to say he was bad.

Yet I highly doubt he was a virgin until his 20s.

[Chebyshov]

^Except the text explicitly tells us "Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark." There's no "starting at 20" qualifier.

Plus the whole concept of "dishonoring Ashara" isn't in keeping with what we know of Ned. It's not really about his "virginity" as much as it is about his honor code.

Btw, the term "dishonoring" makes my skin crawl...I really wish we weren't buying into Barristan's narrative without question.

[Hangover of the Morning]

There's absolutely ZERO evidence Brandon slept with Ashara. None. As far as I'm concerned, that's as much fantasy as that thread suggesting Aerys used a glamour to sleep with Joanna.

I think it's more the elimination process. Benjen was too young, Ned too honourable (and there's not a single hint in his POV), while Brandon fits the bill.

From Meera's tale, Barristan's recollection and Edric's story, my impression is that Ashara slept with a Stark at Harrenhal willingly, possibly with someone she had feelings for or who was able to successfully woe her. She was obviously distraught the day after, possibly because she found out that Brandon is betrothed or that he can't or won't break his promise to the Tullys. It's hard to tell whether Brandon had genuine feelings for her or was just trying to score a prize. She was likely a very willing participant and she possibly didn't think much of Ned at that time so Brandon probably didn't even consider hurting his brother with his behaviour. Whether he did or not at that time is again hard to tell but the events that happened afterwards overshadowed it and it became unimportant.

If Ned slept with Ashara, wouldn't he ask for her hand in marriage?

I do like to think that Ned had a crush on Ashara and that she liked him too or grown fond of him later on (maybe she even thought that she picked the wrong Stark). I think Ashara is the best candidate for whoever tipped of Ned about the Tower of Joy, so she must have trusted him.

[The Twinslayer]

It doesn't destroy her reputation among Dornishmen, though

It does not seem to have hurt the marriage prospects of Barbry Ryswell, Cersei, Lysa Tully, Arianne Martell, Asha Greyjoy, etc. Possibly, Maergaery Tyrell. Ashara would have been fine.

[The Twinslayer]

I don't know who slept with Ashara, but we don't actually know what kind of person Ned was in that time. That isn't to say he was bad.

Yes. I think some people put too much stock in Robert's statement that Ned was never the boy he was. This comes from Robert, who is the quintessential party boy. Also, Robert says this even though he believes Ned has a bastard. If you analyze it closely, Robert is saying: you lead a more boring life, because I have 14 bastards while you only have one.

Yet I highly doubt he was a virgin until his 20s.

Catelyn's description of their wedding night doesn't make him sound inexperienced. It makes him sound unenthusiastic to be with her.

[Chebyshov]

It does not seem to have hurt the marriage prospects of Barbry Ryswell, Cersei, Lysa Tully, Arianne Martell, Asha Greyjoy, etc. Possibly, Maergaery Tyrell. Ashara would have been fine.

Are you kidding me? Forced to abort her child and then getting shunted off to some octogenarian against her will? I'd say Hoster had one of the worst reactions to female sexual choice than any character we've seen.

In the Dornish Debates we kind of theorized that people who arrange marriages with the Dornish maybe know what to expect with regards to an intact hymen, and then the decision to keep paramours is marriage specific. But who really knows? I have a feeling if Hoster had known about Arianne's "despoiled" status he wouldn't have offered Edmure. And who's to say what Ashara's mother or father had in mind for her and her marriage prospects.

[The Twinslayer]

Are you kidding me? Forced to abort her child and then getting shunted off to some octogenarian against her will? I'd say Hoster had one of the worst reactions to female sexual choice than any character we've seen.

In the Dornish Debates we kind of theorized that people who arrange marriages with the Dornish maybe know what to expect with regards to an intact hymen, and then the decision to keep paramours is marriage specific. But who really knows? I have a feeling if Hoster had known about Arianne's "despoiled" status he wouldn't have offered Edmure. And who's to say what Ashara's mother or father had in mind for her and her marriage prospects.

Was Hoster upset that she took a lover or that she wanted to marry beneath her station?

Either way, look at all the others. Cat seems to be the only woman in Westeros who waited until she was married.

[Chebyshov]

Was Hoster upset that she took a lover or that she wanted to marry beneath her station?

I'd say those things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, we have Lysa note that Hoster told her LF was too lowborn (assuming she asked to marry him after her pregnancy became known) and then we also have Cat thinking about how difficult it must be for Jon to welcome a "spoiled woman" into his bed, but that he did it to bind the Tullys to his cause (something also noted by Lysa). The implication there is if not for the war, there's no way a "dishonored" Lysa would have been accepted by Jon. Hoster tricking Lysa into drinking an abortive does not exactly speak highly of his acceptance of her sexual choices, nor does his forcing her to marry Jon when she was clearly unwilling.

The point is, for most of Westeros, a high-born woman who has sex before marriage does deal with serious repercussions...the hunt for Margaery's maidenhead should have been evidence of that. And especially if the sex before marriage results in a child. In Dorne there is little stigma against bastardy and sex outside of marriage, but we don't really know what the dynamics of House Dayne were like, or what their plans for Ashara were. At the least, a non-Dornish, such as Barristan or Eddard, would view Ashara's illegitimate pregnancy as a stain against her honor. We've already seen that Brandon doesn't have hang-ups about "despoiling" women (in fact he kind of seemed to get off on it..."bloody sword" and all), which is why it is more in keeping with his character to be Ashara's lover and baby-daddy than it is for the likes of Ned.

ETA: just found this gem:

“Everyone thought it was because of that stupid duel with Brandon Stark, but that wasn’t so. Father said I ought to thank the gods that so great a lord as Jon Arryn was willing to take me soiled, but I knew it was only for the swords. I had to marry Jon, or my father would have turned me out as he did his brother, but it was Petyr I was meant for.”

Yeah, I'd say Hoster was more upset about the sex itself.

[The Twinslayer]

I'd say those things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, we have Lysa note that Hoster told her LF was too lowborn (assuming she asked to marry him after her pregnancy became known) and then we also have Cat thinking about how difficult it must be for Jon to welcome a "spoiled woman" into his bed, but that he did it to bind the Tullys to his cause (something also noted by Lysa). The implication there is if not for the war, there's no way a "dishonored" Lysa would have been accepted by Jon. Hoster tricking Lysa into drinking an abortive does not exactly speak highly of his acceptance of her sexual choices, nor does his forcing her to marry Jon when she was clearly unwilling.

The point is, for most of Westeros, a high-born woman who has sex before marriage does deal with serious repercussions...the hunt for Margaery's maidenhead should have been evidence of that. And especially if the sex before marriage results in a child. In Dorne there is little stigma against bastardy and sex outside of marriage, but we don't really know what the dynamics of House Dayne were like, or what their plans for Ashara were. At the least, a non-Dornish, such as Barristan or Eddard, would view Ashara's illegitimate pregnancy as a stain against her honor. We've already seen that Brandon doesn't have hang-ups about "despoiling" women (in fact he kind of seemed to get off on it..."bloody sword" and all), which is why it is more in keeping with his character to be Ashara's lover and baby-daddy than it is for the likes of Ned.

ETA: just found this gem:

Yeah, I'd say Hoster was more upset about the sex itself.

You may be right about this, but if you are then the Tullys are very unusual.

But I still think Lysa was "soiled" in Hoster's eyes because she went beneath her station. Barbry Ryswell thought that after being with Brandon (above her station) then she could still marry well -- and she did. For another example, being a royal mistress was actually good for Melissa Blackwell.

You are right that we don't know what the Daynes think, but it is more likely that they are normal like the Martells, the Lannisters, the Ryswells, the Greyjoys, etc.mand not like the Tullys.

[unitron]

Me too. I think there is more to the Ned-Ashara story than one dance at the Harrenhal tournament, and then the next time he sees her she kills herself.

It is interesting that Ned was 18 in the year of the false spring, meaning that he would be close to 20 by the time the Rebellion started, yet he is never linked romantically with any woman other than Ashara. Brandon is only a year older and he is already betrothed to Cat. Lyanna is a few years younger and she is betrothed to Robert. Rickard is making alliances in the south. How did Ned get so old with no betrothal? And wouldn't Rickard consider a southern match for his second son? He probably can't go for a Lannister or a Tyrell, but the daughter of an old, prominent House like the Daynes would be a good match. The Daynes also broaden Rickard's reach into a new region, and they are a good First Men family. What if the reason Brandon introduced Ned to Ashara was to to explore a possible marriage alliance?

For all we know, Ned and Ashara had an understanding and they were waiting until after Brandon's wedding to announce a betrothal. It is also possible that they were lovers from the time of the Harrenhal tournament until the day Ned had to marry Cat. Imagine their tearful parting when Ned told her he had to marry Cat, for duty, not knowing that Ashara was newly pregnant with his child. Perhaps this last meeting even took place at Harrenhal, where they had first met . . .

This would take on a new meaning:

Because all Ned really wanted was to settle down with Ashara for a quiet life.

I have also seen the theory that Barristan's reference to "turning to Stark" probably means Ned because the characters in the books often use last names to refer to Lords. In AGOT, Aerys is "Targaryen" while Rhaegar is "Rhaegar," etc. Under this theory, when Ashara turned to "Stark" it means she turned to "Lord Stark." Brandon never was Lord Stark (he watched his father die), but Barristan knew Ned as Lord Stark for 15 years. So as far as Barristan is concerned, "Stark" means Ned.

If Brandon lived long enough to see his father die, then he was Lord Stark for a moment or 3 before his own death.

[David Selig]

Catelyn's description of their wedding night doesn't make him sound inexperienced. It makes him sound unenthusiastic to be with her.

Was that even described in any way? I don't recall it.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I'd say those things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, we have Lysa note that Hoster told her LF was too lowborn (assuming she asked to marry him after her pregnancy became known) and then we also have Cat thinking about how difficult it must be for Jon to welcome a "spoiled woman" into his bed, but that he did it to bind the Tullys to his cause (something also noted by Lysa). The implication there is if not for the war, there's no way a "dishonored" Lysa would have been accepted by Jon. Hoster tricking Lysa into drinking an abortive does not exactly speak highly of his acceptance of her sexual choices, nor does his forcing her to marry Jon when she was clearly unwilling.

The point is, for most of Westeros, a high-born woman who has sex before marriage does deal with serious repercussions...the hunt for Margaery's maidenhead should have been evidence of that. And especially if the sex before marriage results in a child. In Dorne there is little stigma against bastardy and sex outside of marriage, but we don't really know what the dynamics of House Dayne were like, or what their plans for Ashara were. At the least, a non-Dornish, such as Barristan or Eddard, would view Ashara's illegitimate pregnancy as a stain against her honor. We've already seen that Brandon doesn't have hang-ups about "despoiling" women (in fact he kind of seemed to get off on it..."bloody sword" and all), which is why it is more in keeping with his character to be Ashara's lover and baby-daddy than it is for the likes of Ned.

ETA: just found this gem:

Yeah, I'd say Hoster was more upset about the sex itself.

I agree. Besides, it's impossible to compare Arianne and Lysa as their situations are fundamentally different because of their social status.

Arianne is the heiress of Dorne and whoever will marry her will rule Dorne with her and his children will inherit his status after him. That is the reason, why someone is going to marry Arianne and that's not going to change even if she has had premarital affairs. She can't really marry much higher up unless she wants to abdicate from her status as the heir apparent to Dorne and marry into the royal family. That's why she is allowed a bit more leeway in what she does.

Same goes for Asha. She's been brought up as Balon's heir. Besides, the Ironborn follow strength so if Euron didn't come with his horn and if the IB were deciding between her and Victarion, they wouldn't chose a proper virtuous lady like Sansa, unless she has a strong husband behind her. They'd chose Asha because she proved herself capable of leading men, which is more important to them than her virginity.

All that Lysa, Catelyn and Ashara are bringing to the marriage is the honour and reputation of their family House (i.e. the promise that they are well brought up and adequately educated); their youth and beauty (promise of healthy heirs), their virtue (the promise that they are not with child at the time of marriage plus that they won't cuckold their husband during the marriage); the promise of the aid of their family if needs be (i.e. martial support) and possibly some dowry. The children are the biggest commodity for any lord in Westeros. They have only limited number of them and they have to make sure that by marrying them to the right people in order to maintain or advance their current position.

[The Twinslayer]

If Brandon lived long enough to see his father die, then he was Lord Stark for a moment or 3 before his own death.

"Brandon had been twenty when he died, strangled by order of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen only a few short days before he was to wed Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. His father had been forced to watch him die." That is from Ned.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Barristan does not think ill of Ned Stark. For how he thinks about the situation and Ashara in ADwD, Barristan would hold a grudge against "Stark." So, Ned does not make any sense. Point against it being Ned.

Yeah, and it sure seems to fit Brandon's personality more.