[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

[Antler's Fury]

There is a small chance fAegon has the right drop of Targ blood in him, but it is probably unlikely, and short of a Varys reveal, I can't think of any other way that George will reveal he is a fake.

It seems that the general consensus is that fAegon is a Blackfyre or the son of Illyrio and Serra of Lys, or both. Either way, he'd have a decent amount of Valyrian blood. The Blackfyres probably practiced incest as well (how else do you produce a Maelys?) and it is known that the Lysene are ethnically Valyrian. At any rate, I don't see why Valyrian blood would be necessary to ride dragons, given that Nettles, who probably didn't have any, tamed one. Indeed, recall that the Valyrians were once just ordinary sheepherders who happened to find dragon eggs, so it's not like there's something inherently magical about their blood.

[Lord Varys]

Nothing suggests that Nettles did not have Valyrian blood.

[Antler's Fury]

Nothing suggests that Nettles did not have Valyrian blood.

Even if she did, so what? Again, the Valyrians are descended from shepherds who happened to live near an area where there were dragon eggs. I don't see where this magical blood stuff is coming from. Yes, the only dragon riders we have seen are people of Valyrian descent, but that's because the only ones who have ever had control over dragon eggs were Valyrians. The fact that Valyrian blood is associated with dragon riders doesn't necessarily mean that Valyrian blood enables dragon taming. Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation. If people without magical blood found dragon eggs, and raised dragons, and kept the technique closely guarded amongst themselves, it would certainly look like they had magical blood that enabled them to raise dragons, but they really wouldn't.

[voodooqueen126]

Making Tyrion parallel the son of Uther Pendragon and Igraine, the parents of Arthus :D, where Uther came to Igraine disguised by Merlin's magic as her husband since there had been a prophecy that made it necessary for Arthus to be born.

Rather big shoes to fill for Tyrion! I wonder who was Merlin in that business - Varys?

It's an interesting parallel. Isn't there some sort of conspiracy theory that Varys is a merling, which sounds like Merlin...

If we agree that Joanna was ambitious (I find it very likely myself) then she might decide that revealing to Tywin that she was raped doesn't fit her plans. His anger and need for revenge could easily threaten whatever she had in mind for the future of her house and children. She could think "telling my husband about this could mean open war with the throne". It's really not hard to see how she might not want that to happen, and thus she might conceal the truth.

No one can be certain of what Joanna would do. Even if we knew a lot about her, we can't presume to know how she'd react to a very dicey situation. and we *don't* know much about her personality at all, so we can only make guesses.

I absolutely 100% agree that Joanna was exceptional, and that was a big part of Tywin's love for her. As big as he was on pride and Lannister image, she must've been the picture of the perfect Lannister woman. Now, here I am making assumptions, but this is more straightforward I think. We know wayyyy more about Tywin than we do about Joanna.

I do think that Joanna was ambitious-or why else would she put up with her husband being away for most of the year, and serving a man who sexually harassed her (because if the boob comment was indicative, then Aerys's behaviour to her was hardly charming). Yet by this point her husband was Hand of the King as well as lord of Castelry Rock, frankly there is not much further you can go than that.

Given that Joanna does not seem to have been a bad person (ie she was happy to arrange a marriage between Cersei and Oberyn and Jaime and Elia) I doubt that her ambitions tipped over into the power hungry (ie acquiring the Riverlands, or poisoning Aerys so that the more malleable Rhaegar can become king and marry Cersei)

[History of Westeros]

Joanna was against the idea marrying her children to the throne, it seems. But she liked the idea of marriages with House Martell.

[Maia]

Yes, the only dragon riders we have seen are people of Valyrian descent, but that's because the only ones who have ever had control over dragon eggs were Valyrians.

First of all, it is probably not even true that Valyrians were the only people ever to have access to the eggs, given that there are ancient dragon remains to be found all over the world. Also, for people of dragonlord descent, it is possible to claim dragons that they haven't hatched. Viz: the the mentions of Maegor and Aemond being offered the opportunities to pick a hatchling from Dragonstone. And, of course, people bonding to previously ridden dragons.

If people without magical blood found dragon eggs, and raised dragons, and kept the technique closely guarded amongst themselves, it would certainly look like they had magical blood that enabled them to raise dragons, but they really wouldn't.

Except that lack of bond between Dany's handmaidens and her dragons proves that merely raising dragons from eggs doesn't do the trick. Because they have been helping Dany with it from day one, yet the dragons remained completely focussed on Dany, to the extent that early on they got agitated if Dany was out of their line of sight. Even though the handmaidens remained close to them.

Also, why is it so hard to accept that if skinchanging and greenseeing are inborn, then ability to bond to dragons may be too? Or, at least, that it might require some very powerful magic (and magical ability also appears to be inborn)?

Re: Tyrion becoming a rider after the dragonhorn is used - it won't actually debunk his descent from Aerys, unless somebody unconnected to the Targs - like Vic, for instance, would be also able to claim one.

If the horn is sounded, and Tyrion and Ben wind up as the dragonriders, well, it will only show that the horns were supposed to make it easier to claim the dragons for those who already have the blood.

OTOH, I strongly doubt that patsies can be substituted to use the horn correctly. So, maybe Moqorro will engineer it so that Tyrion would be forced to sound it - and not die. That would be proof too, since dragonlords considered themselves more than mere men. IMHO the inscription means that only a dragonlord could use the horn properly.

I do not think she was superstitious, ruled by her emotions, mewling, pious or silly.

For these reasons the only scenario that I can think of where Aerys rapes Joanna (because I doubt she would've loved this creepy eccentric weirdo at this point) and Joanna doesn't take moon tea/failing that having a wise woman cleanse it from her, is where he rapes her without her knowledge: either somehow disguised as Tywin, or whilst Joanna was unconscious..

Well, but how would Joanna know that the moon tea had failed, if she was also sleeping with Tywin after the encounter with Aerys? I mean, if there is any truth to the rumours about her affair with Aerys when they were young, as I am inclined to believe, she must have used the moon tea in the past without any problems. Just like Cersei did prior to that pregnancy that just wouldn't go away. But Cersei must have known that the child couldn't be Jaime's and she was crazy enough to risk her future fertilty over an abortion.

But rational and intelligent or not, if Joanna slept with Tywin a couple of days later, she would have had no reason to suspect that she needed an abortion when she discovered her pregnancy. She'd have thought that the issue with Aerys had been taken care of.

Re: one man being disguised as the other during sex and the woman not realising it - is it even possible unless the woman is massively drunk or drugged? Not IMHO, but YMMV.

But yea, there are some pretty strong Arthurian parallels in the whole Aerys-Lannister triangle.

[History of Westeros]

Well, but how would Joanna know that the moon tea failed, if she was also sleeping with Tywin after the encounter with Aerys?

This is a great point especially when paired w/the possible scenario that Joanna concealed her mini-affair/rape from Tywin. She would have to keep on keeping as if nothing had happened, which means a normal schedule of sleeping with her totally-in-love husband.

It's even possible that Joanna realized the possibility that the moon tea might not have worked, leading her to be incredibly stressed leading up to the birth, for fear that the child would look Targaryen. Massive stress can certainly have a physical effect, which could've contributed to her death in childbirth.

It would be a stretch to assume any of this, but they are reasonable possibilities.

[Lord Varys]

We could assume that Tywin took precautions to ensure that Joanna no longer had access to birth control stuff after they had married/while both were close to Aerys to ensure that she would not continue her affair.

That is, if we go with the Aerys-Joanna affair scenario, as I do. I'm not sure if Tywin could have ensured that she did not get moon tea, but it could have worked if he had instructed Joanna's servants, maidens, and his maester accordingly.

Another reason why Joanna could have tried to not get rid of Aerys' child may have been fear. In 272/3 Tywin seems to have been more or less his elder self, and I can totally see him threatening Joanna to parade her naked through Lannisport (the way he treated his father's last mistress, and the way Kevan treated Tywin's daughter) if she ever took up her affair with Aerys.

I don't think this Tywin would have been cold enough to go through with it, but he would certainly have had in him to threaten Joanna is such a way.

Another thing:

One of the few things we actually know about Joanna is that she was pretty afraid that Tywin would find out about the Jaime-Cersei-incest while she was pregnant with Tyrion. That fear may be not so much connected to the actual twincest, but how it may have looked in Tywin's mind. He may have taken it as a sign that Cersei and Jaime could have been Aerys' (despite the fact that it was not really possible) or that Joanna's new child was Aerys'...

[Mithras]

Another reason why Joanna could have tried to not get rid of Aerys' child may have been fear. In 272/3 Tywin seems to have been more or less his elder self, and I can totally see him threatening Joanna to parade her naked through Lannisport (the way he treated his father's last mistress, and the way Kevan treated Tywin's daughter) if she ever took up her affair with Aerys.

With this reasoning, Joanna should have done everything to prevent a pregnancy from Aerys because the moment she gave birth to a purple-eyed Targ baby, Tywin would have WoSed her. She could have used moon tea or simply produce an excuse to not have sex with Tywin after having sex with Aerys for long enough. This logic works for both rape and affair cases.

[History of Westeros]

Another reason why Joanna could have tried to not get rid of Aerys' child may have been fear. In 272/3 Tywin seems to have been more or less his elder self, and I can totally see him threatening Joanna to parade her naked through Lannisport (the way he treated his father's last mistress, and the way Kevan treated Tywin's daughter) if she ever took up her affair with Aerys.

I don't think this Tywin would have been cold enough to go through with it, but he would certainly have had in him to threaten Joanna is such a way.

I think Tywin would never, under any circumstance, parade Joanna naked in the streets. You are aware of that, by pointing out that he would only threaten this, and not actually do it.

If that's the case, and it could be, then we must also assume Joanna would know it to be an empty threat. In other words, if Tywin made that bluff, Joanna would call.

So Joanna wouldn't be afraid of that, in particular. I don't think she would be afraid of Tywin at all, she supposedly ruled him. She's not worried about what he'd do to her, she's worried about what he'd do to others (especially if she had plans of her own).

[History of Westeros]

With this reasoning, Joanna should have done everything to prevent a pregnancy from Aerys because the moment she gave birth to a purple-eyed Targ baby, Tywin would have WoSed her. She could have used moon tea or simply produce an excuse to not have sex with Tywin after having sex with Aerys for long enough. This logic works for both rape and affair cases.

Nah, because that's not the reasoning. LV isn't suggesting Tywin would actually parade Joanna in the streets, he's suggesting that he would threaten to parade her in the streets.

[teemo]

This is a confusing topic to me, tbh. Why do people think Joanna slept with Aerys? Was it rape or consensual? Why?

[Mithras]

This is a confusing topic to me, tbh. Why do people think Joanna slept with Aerys? Was it rape or consensual? Why?

Good questions :)

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is a confusing topic to me, tbh. Why do people think Joanna slept with Aerys? Was it rape or consensual? Why?

People think Joanna slept with Aerys because there are a lot of "clues" that Tyrion has Targaryen blood and that Aerys is Tyrion's father. I go into a lot of detail on this theory in an OP I posted on the main board called A+J=T v. 2 (click on the link if you want to read the details). Whether the sex was rape or consensual is a trickier question. I go back and forth on which I believe. Certainly Lord Varys is convinced that it was consensual. He makes good points, but I see evidence for both possibilities. At this moment, I lean toward rape, but some days I lean toward consensual. The real point is that there are just too many hints that Tyrion is Aerys's son to ignore the likelihood that Aerys and Joanna had sex during the Anniversary Tourney of 272. The evidence for whether the sex was consensual or rape is less clear (at least to me).

[teemo]

People think Joanna slept with Aerys because there are a lot of "clues" that Tyrion has Targaryen blood and that Aerys is Tyrion's father. I go into a lot of detail on this theory in an OP I posted on the main board called A+J=T v. 2 (click on the link if you want to read the details). Whether the sex was rape or consensual is a trickier question. I go back and forth on which I believe. Certainly Lord Varys is convinced that it was consensual. He makes good points, but I see evidence for both possibilities. At this moment, I lean toward rape, but some days I lean toward consensual. The real point is that there are just too many hints that Tyrion is Aerys's son to ignore the likelihood that Aerys and Joanna had sex during the Anniversary Tourney of 272. The evidence for whether the sex was consensual or rape is less clear (at least to me).

Yeah, I meant to write, "Why would Joanna sleep with Aerys?" I'll have to read that thread, thanks :)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah, I meant to write, "Why would Joanna sleep with Aerys?" I'll have to read that thread, thanks :)

The best theory that Lord Varys came up with (a clever theory that just might be accurate)--I will try to do it justice, I hope I get it right--is that Joanna knew that Tywin was pissed and ready to quit as hand (perhaps the comment about the breasts really was a last straw) and Joanna did not want Aerys to accept the resignation because she wanted Tywin to keep the power. In order to convince Aerys to reject the resignation that was going to come the next day, she renews her affair with Aerys for that night to gets him to agree to reject the resignation.

Another theory is that she was always more attracted to Aerys than Tywin, which is why she had the affair at all. That would be why Rhaella and Tywin made sure she had been kept at CR for years, but the opportunity for one last "fling" was too much of a temptation.

At this point, I tend to think that Aerys lusted after her. I am not even as convinced as most that they even really had a prior affair. Maybe they did and maybe Aerys just made it clear how much he wanted her which caused all the rumors. Either way, he had his guards bring Joanna to his chambers that night and she realized she cannot refuse him. So it was rape by modern standards, but likely no physical force would have been required.

As I noted above, I go back and forth on which theory I find more convincing. But what I find entirely convincing is that Aerys is the bio-dad of Tyrion. In the OP I wrote and referenced above, this issue of Joanna sleeping with Aerys in 272 is only a small part of the analysis. There are many more pieces of evidence for A+J=T than just these hints that Aerys and Joanna were intimate in 272.

[Chaircat Meow]

I realise it is not the main purpose of the thread but for teemo the prior affair is actually not that convincing. It reads like something designed to rope the moderately astute reader into believing it, but it falls down on close inspection. We know Rhaella dismissed ladies the king turned into 'whores' but Joanna's reported affair does not fit her dismissal. She was dismissed after she was married, well after the brief reign as paramour, and long after Aerys was said to have taken her maidenhead.

Pycelle also had no reason to lie about this. People lazily assume he is just Tywin's toady so he's obviously lying but I think Pycelle only became that because he convinced himself Tywin was a good hand, 'a man who did what needed to be done,' as he said in AffC. There was therefore no need to lie about an affair between Joanna and Aerys in a report to the Citadel. He could have just said, 'shame about the hand's wife, she is not worthy of him, etc.'

We also know Aerys went through women like water, but he seems to have kept up an interest in Joanna for something like four years (presumably on and off) and still been interested in her after her marriage. That's doesn't quite fit.

It makes more sense if Aerys acquired a passion for her which she wouldn't indulge. So he invented rumours (or his lickspittles did) and drunkenly joked about lord's rite of first night at her wedding night. In 272 he carried that thought through.

[Lord Varys]

Just to clarify:

I also can see Aerys raping Joanna (or rather, coerce her to sleep with him against her will), but I think we should go with the other option, as the 'rape idea' would, in my opinion, not add all that much new to the whole equation, whereas an on-and-off affair between Joanna and Aerys would add a lot more interesting stuff to the Joanna-Tywin-Aerys-triangle, especially if Joanna did indeed manipulate both men to get what she wanted.

It would also make Tywin much more human if he did indeed raise Aerys' bastard as his own son (while knowing/heavily suspecting the truth). That could be a sign that Tywin was, in fact, not as cold/dead inside as Tyrion thought him to be, and had it not in himself to go through with every threat he made. Rather, he carefully projected such an image into the outside world, including towards his own children and parts of his family.

This is why I believe Tywin could, at one point, really have threatened to treat Joanna the same way he treated Tytos' last mistress, despite the fact that he knew he would never go through with it. I imagine that the Tywin around 270 AC was already very much like the Tywin we know in the main series, although he may not have been as emotionally detached - Joanna's death clearly played a huge part there...

[Chaircat Meow]

Just to clarify:

I also can see Aerys raping Joanna (or rather, coerce her to sleep with him against her will), but I think we should go with the other option, as the 'rape idea' would, in my opinion, not add all that much new to the whole equation, whereas an on-and-off affair between Joanna and Aerys would add a lot more interesting stuff to the Joanna-Tywin-Aerys-triangle, especially if Joanna did indeed manipulate both men to get what she wanted.

It would also make Tywin much more human if he did indeed raise Aerys' bastard as his own son (while knowing/heavily suspecting the truth). That could be a sign that Tywin was, in fact, not as cold/dead inside as Tyrion thought him to be, and had it not in himself to go through with every threat he made. Rather, he carefully projected such an image into the outside world, including towards his own children and parts of his family.

This is why I believe Tywin could, at one point, really have threatened to treat Joanna the same way he treated Tytos' last mistress, despite the fact that he knew he would never go through with it. I imagine that the Tywin around 270 AC was already very much like the Tywin we know in the main series, although he may not have been as emotionally detached - Joanna's death clearly played a huge part there...

No. It explains Tywin's behaviour perfectly from 273 onwards, up to and including the sack of KL. Also Tywin would not have treated Tyrion like he did if he genuinely knew he wasn't his son. That's far too far fetched. But if he suspected Tyrion might not be his, and if Tyrion served as a living reminder of Tywin's inability to protect his own wife, that would humanize him a fair bit.

[Mithras]

In general, how do you think (whether rape or consent) the relationship between Aerys and Joanna will be explained in the main series if they indeed sired Tyrion? Bran seeing it through a tree or something?