[TWOIAF Spoilers] Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

[chrisdaw]

The Tyrion-Shae relationship will be the template for Tywin-Joanna.

The differences are that instead of the jewels and gowns a whore covets, Joanna lusts mirror her daughter. And a whore has is burdened by the realities of her position, Shae's manipulations can only take her so far, for Joanna, being a proper lady and Tywin's wife, the only limiting factor being Rhaella's wrath.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Red herring, that's why! He doubts about the accuracy of this rumors and so should we.

right, I was waiting for that answer, sorry but it was highly predictable and I get the same answer all the time from those faced with facts from the books. "Oh it doesn't fit into what I am already positing so that means it's a red herring."

A red herring for

1. Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons

2. Three riders = three heads

No, not what we are talking about here. We are talking about Tyrion. And this does not follow with what I have heard you say in the past, which is that Tyrion will ride a dragon.

So if Barristan is hinting at A+J=T, (according to you and rozemarjin) it is a red herring for Tyrion being a Targaryen. But there are other hints towards him riding a dragon, are those also red herrings? I have seen you post that TYrion will ride, so which is it? Only certain references to him riding or being a Targ are red herrings? That makes zero sense, sorry.

[Mithras]

No, not what we are talking about here. We are talking about Tyrion. And this does not follow with what I have heard you say in the past, which is that Tyrion will ride a dragon.

So if Barristan is hinting at A+J=T, (according to you and rozemarjin) it is a red herring for Tyrion being a Targaryen. But there are other hints towards him riding a dragon, are those also red herrings? I have seen you post that TYrion will ride, so which is it? Only certain references to him riding or being a Targ are red herrings? That makes zero sense, sorry.

Of course I believe that Tyrion will ride Viserion but I don't think Targ blood is necessary to ride one, though it may make the process easier with a person with Targ blood. After all, dragons should have got used to Valyrian looks and smell by being bred by them for thousands of years.

With respect to A+J=T, I already posted it many times that I don't believe there is strong evidence for it and it does not have much to contribute to the story.

I also posted it many times that if Tyrion along with the golden twins have Targ blood, it can be better explained by a Plumm ancestry. There is still room to work that theory. Joanna's and/or Tywin's mother can be grandchildren of Viserys Plumm in the female line.

I am also perhaps the only person in the forum who believes in Gerion + Joanna = Tyrion.

[King Tyrion I]

<snip>

I am also perhaps the only person in the forum who believes in Gerion + Joanna = Tyrion.

I'd love to read that what makes you believe in that. Maybe in a PM?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Of course I believe that Tyrion will ride Viserion but I don't think Targ blood is necessary to ride one, though it may make the process easier with a person with Targ blood. After all, dragons should have got used to Valyrian looks and smell by being bred by them for thousands of years.

With respect to A+J=T, I already posted it many times that I don't believe there is strong evidence for it and it does not have much to contribute to the story.

I also posted it many times that if Tyrion along with the golden twins have Targ blood, it can be better explained by a Plumm ancestry. There is still room to work that theory. Joanna's and/or Tywin's mother can be grandchildren of Viserys Plumm in the female line.

I am also perhaps the only person in the forum who believes in Gerion + Joanna = Tyrion.

I thought the Lannister family tree in WOIAF confirmed there was no Plumm in the family?

Even if it didnt I know that is not how this will all play out, it would be too obscure a reason for Tyrion to have Targ blood when all the signs point to Aerys being his father, in the sense of a well written novel I mean.

Anyway my point was that Barristan tells Dany very little about Westeros past, but the few stories he does tell her are HIGHLY important, her tells her TKOLT, her tells her a bit about Aerys being crazy even if she doesnt want to hear it. And he tells her about Aerys having a thing for JOanna.

My question is this; Why would one of the very few select things Barristan tells her be inaccurate? Is there any reason besides personal preference? it is my opinion that the few things Barristan has shared with Dany are all of high importance and will be showing up again in WoW and DoS. If you guys think that him telling her about Aerys and Joanna is a red herring when none of the others are then there must be a reason (as I said, beyond personal preference).

[rozemarijn]

I am also perhaps the only person in the forum who believes in Gerion + Joanna = Tyrion.

I want to know as well! I think the bloodline with Gerion is what's getting Tyrion up that dragon.

About the red herring: maybe that's a hard way of putting it. But good writing is keeping open possibilities so people might wonder.

I think the main reason the information is there is character discription of Tywin. He might wanted to picture him more gray and give an explanation for his sacking and child slaughtering. Perhaps this will come up, Dany might want revenge and perhaps a better understanding of her father and Tywins relationship will help her prevent doing something stupid. Perhaps this is a seed.

Other explanation:

When he wrote the books he might not have planned the world book but obviously thought out the story. So when Barristan is having a chat with Dany about lovers (the marriage, Daario, it is a large part of her story, marry for duty) he needed some extra story and decided to put that in.

It is a bit like Rowling. She knew a character was Jewish but she did not have the time to bring it up. She did bring up McGonagal was Scottisch when she needed to describe her dress. But they were Scottish and Jewish in het head the whole time.

So it does not have to be your explanation. It could be a seed or nothing.

[Mithras]

I never made a theory about G+J=T but this is Fire Eater's thread about the Fate of Gerion Lannister in which I made some posts about this idea.

I am fully on board with Gerion Lannister being the Corsair King and the husband of the Sailor's Wife. I am also sure that he will join Dany at some point. That will provide the opportunity to reveal the secrets of House Lannister.

Gerion and Tyrion share many traits and parallels.

Their mothers could not survive the childbirth. Probably that is why Tywin hated them both (Gerion for “killing” his mother and causing Tytos to seek condolence in the arms of mistresses which shamed Tywin and Tyrion for “killing” his wife).

Gerion did not choose to be knighted, nor was Tyrion.

Gerion encouraged Tyrion where Tywin resented him and tried to hide him.

TWOIAF revealed that Gerion and Tywin had a “stormy” relationship.

Gerion fathered bastards (Lanna from the Sailor’s Wife and Joy Hill).

From the way it seems, Gerion was good with women. As a handsome sailor, he could have succeeded seducing Joanna in the long absence and the deterioration of Tywin. Joanna could have sex with him without worrying about the looks of a possible child.

[Lord Varys]

Just for the record:

I'm not sure we can say that Barristan must be ignorant/not be able to deduce what happened between Joanna and Aerys in a certain night in 272 AC. Dany explicitly asks Barristan about the woman her father truly loved, and when Barristan mentions rumors and kitchen gossip he is referring to that question - whether Aerys truly lusted after/desired/was in love with Joanna - and not whether she did eventually share his bed.

He is somewhat embarrassed by the question and reluctant to talk about it, and is eventually cut off by Hizdahr.

In regards to Tywin:

HmM and I simply differ in various points in our assessment of Tywin's which leads different expectations/conclusions about the character. We'll all have to wait and see, but I'd be really surprised if it turned out that Tyrion was Tywin's biological son, or if it did turn out that Joanna was actually very much in love with Tywin, or not attracted to Aerys at all.

[barristan-b]

I really don't think he's a Targ.

I've seen mentioned before about the irony of him being Tywin's only true son with Joanna.

Jamie and Cersei are the Targ/Lannister bastards. I know many people hate that theory but I think that'd be crazy...in a good way. It doesn't make J & C any prophetic or AA type characters so they can still kick the bucket. I think it'd be interesting if Bran found out via weirwood web after they die somehow.

I'd ultimately prefer neither scenario however.

[Ramsay Gimp]

If Aerys impregnated Joanna, rape makes way more sense than consensual cuckolding. The latter is rather implausible, given everything we've been told. It basically amounts to a twist (Tyrion = Targ) relying on another twist (Joanna = lying cheater), pulling one too many rugs out from under the story

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

I really don't think he's a Targ.

I've seen mentioned before about the irony of him being Tywin's only true son with Joanna.

Jamie and Cersei are the Targ/Lannister bastards. I know many people hate that theory but I think that'd be crazy...in a good way. It doesn't make J & C any prophetic or AA type characters so they can still kick the bucket. I think it'd be interesting if Bran found out via weirwood web after they die somehow.

I'd ultimately prefer neither scenario however.

TWOIAF pretty much debunks the possibility of Aerys being the father of the twins. Otoh Ran confirmed that more fuel has been thrown onto the AJT theory.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If Aerys impregnated Joanna, rape makes way more sense than consensual cuckolding. The latter is rather implausible, given everything we've been told. It basically amounts to a twist (Tyrion = Targ) relying on another twist (Joanna = lying cheater), pulling one too many rugs out from under the story

That's a good point, i never thought of it that way. I tend to think the same way as SeanF, that the sex was consensual in the sense that Joanna was not screaming for help but only because she was ordered to be there. LIke she understood she had no choice kind of thing.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I read back a few pages and had read the first few pages, I think it has been largely forgotten that Tyrion is the only non known Targ who dreams about dragons in the series.

The 1 possible exception is clearly a different kind of dream when the girl dreams of the dance of dragons in the Arianne prologue.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I read back a few pages and had read the first few pages, I think it has been largely forgotten that Tyrion is the only non known Targ who dreams about dragons in the series.

The 1 possible exception is clearly a different kind of dream when the girl dreams of the dance of dragons in the Arianne prologue.

Yes! everyone forgets it, or, more commonly, simply puts on blinders about it. Tyrion dreams of Dragons on 5 different occasions. Dany has dragons dreams as well, so do multiple targs in the D&E novels, and Aemon mentions it as he is dying in Sam's arms.

There are 2 other people who mention any kind of dream involving a dragon of any kind. Telora Toland and Shirren Baratheon. We know that Shirren's grandmother was a Targaryen, so that makes sense. And the Toland'ds house sigil is a dragon chasing it's tail. We have zero info on the Toland family tree, but I would bet my car that there is a Targaryen within 3-4 generations of Telora, they are from Dorne after all.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Tyrion dreams of Dragons on 5 different occasions.

.

Could you quote these?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Could you quote these?

Yes :) I would love to :)

1. Jon and Tyrion in GOT----"What are you reading about?" he asked

"Dragons, ' Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did? ' the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bear skin aside and climbed to his feet. " I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion Guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

................

'Most men,' the boy said. "But not you.'

'No, ' Tyrion admitted, 'not me. I seldom ever dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

(^^^^also references to Tyrion having dragons dreams during his childhood, undocumented)

2. That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping.—Tyrion’s dream from DwD

3. “He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.”

4. “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.” ( I admit this one could be a joke, intended to further insult Cersei)

5. “Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, “You are done with drink.”

“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested, Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.”

I know that these are not all examples of 'Targaryen Dragon Prophetic Dreams'. Some of them are simply dreams involving the animals called dragons, and are not prophetic (but it must be noted that Tyrion has never seen a live dragon during his lifetime, he has seen the skulls and drawings, but that's all, same as Dareon in D&E, dreaming of full grown dragons, although he has never seen one, this impresses me) . BUt even a dream like that, just a casual dream involving a dragon, are not had by ANY OTHER CHARCTERS. Every time I post, posters come on and say, "oh but those are just childish dreams that anyone could have" --OK but they don't. No other characters have even 'casual dreams' involving dragons except for Shireen and Telora. Shireen we know has Targ blood, Telora is unconfimred.

Here is Telora's passage

It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."

"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don’t be mad."

"I’m not. They’re coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Now IMO posters who do not see this as a clear and direct hint that Tyrion is the son of Aerys are kidding themselves, or have a personal desire for this theory to not be true. If everyone puts on their totally objective hats, they will see that A+J=T is the truth.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Also, this is what Aemon says about the dreams

(Maester AemonFFC/DwD) "I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . .

And here are some more quotes from Tyrion in DwD about dreaming.

“He dreamt of his lord father and the Shrouded Lord, He dreamt that they were one and the same, and when his father wrapped stone arms around him and bent to give him his Grey kiss, he woke with his mouth dry and rusty with the taste of blood and his heart hammering in his chest.”

Tyrion shook his head to clear away the webs of dream.

The Sorrows are behind us. It was just a dream I dreamed I was drowning.”

“And the nights were worse. Tyrion slept badly at the best of times, and this was far from that. Sleep meant dreams like as not, and in his dreams the Sorrows waited, and a stony king with his father’s face.”

“Back in the cabin he shared with Jorah Mormont,Tyrion twisted in his hammock for hours, slipping in and out of sleep. His dreams were full of grey, stony hands reaching for him from out of the fog, and a stair that led up to his father.”

“Instead he drank water, and was condemned to sleepless nights and days of sweats and shakes. The dwarf sat up, cradling his head in his hands. Did I dream? All memory of it had fled. The nights had never been kind to Tyrion Lannister. He slept badly even on soft feather beds.”

Clearly Tyrion has always had issues with sleeping/dreaming. Other Targaryens knew they were Targaryens, so dreaming about Dragons or having prophetic dreams might not have bothered them quite so much since they knew what was going on. Tyrion has NO idea that Aerys is his father, so none of this makes any sense to him. But I think Tyrion's issues with sleep and dreaming line up perfectly with what Aemon says about it ; "My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes :) I would love to :)

1. Jon and Tyrion in GOT----"What are you reading about?" he asked

"Dragons, ' Tyrion told him.

"What good is that? There are no more dragons," the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did? ' the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bear skin aside and climbed to his feet. " I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion Guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

................

'Most men,' the boy said. "But not you.'

'No, ' Tyrion admitted, 'not me. I seldom ever dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

(^^^^also references to Tyrion having dragons dreams during his childhood, undocumented)

2. That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping.—Tyrion’s dream from DwD

3. “He drained it down, and yawned, and filled it once again. If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen Princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o’er fields and mountains. Once when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his name day, he begged them for a dragon. “It wouldn’t need to be a big one. It could be little, like I am.” His uncle Gerion thought that was the funniest thing he had ever heard, but his uncle Tygett said, “The last dragon died a century ago, lad.” That had seemed so monstrously unfair that the boy had cried himself to sleep that night.

Yet if the lord of cheese could be believed the Mad King’s daughter had hatched three living dragons. Two more than even a Targaryen should require.”

4. “I dreamed about the queen,” he said. “I was on my knees before her, swearing my allegiance, but she mistook me for my brother, Jaime, and fed me to her dragons.”

“Let us hope this dream was not prophetic.” ( I admit this one could be a joke, intended to further insult Cersei)

5. “Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull. Griff took one look at him retching over the side of the poleboat, and said, “You are done with drink.”

“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested, Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.”

I know that these are not all examples of 'Targaryen Dragon Prophetic Dreams'. Some of them are simply dreams involving the animals called dragons, and are not prophetic (but it must be noted that Tyrion has never seen a live dragon during his lifetime, he has seen the skulls and drawings, but that's all, same as Dareon in D&E, dreaming of full grown dragons, although he has never seen one, this impresses me) . BUt even a dream like that, just a casual dream involving a dragon, are not had by ANY OTHER CHARCTERS. Every time I post, posters come on and say, "oh but those are just childish dreams that anyone could have" --OK but they don't. No other characters have even 'casual dreams' involving dragons except for Shireen and Telora. Shireen we know has Targ blood, Telora is unconfimred.

Here is Telora's passage

It was then that pasty, pudgy Teora raised her eyes from the creamcakes on her plate. "It is dragons."

"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don’t be mad."

"I’m not. They’re coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died."

Now IMO posters who do not see this as a clear and direct hint that Tyrion is the son of Aerys are kidding themselves, or have a personal desire for this theory to not be true. If everyone puts on their totally objective hats, they will see that A+J=T is the truth.

Thank you! :)

Ok, I think I understand what you are arguing..

Tyrion dreamt about dragons on occasions... Be it in the "I'm a small child and I want a puppy!" kind of dream, or in a possible "prophetic" kind of dream. Any type of dream whatsoever.

True.

Examples 1 and 3 are Tyrion dreaming as I am currently "dreaming" about getting a new appartment. They were not prophetic dreams.. But you said that yourself.

Example 4, I suspect, was more a joke than actual truth :)

Example 2, however, has quite a different feel to it. I can't be an exact view of the future... Bittersteel is long dead, after all :) Could it be that this dream is referring to the Second Dance, as Teora's dream is? Bittersteel, in this case, representing the Golden Company (Bittersteel created the GC after all), and Barristan representing Daenerys' forces.. In that case, we'd have people representing Aegon's forces, and Dany's forces, and the dragons flying in the sky would be the actual living dragons who are sure to mix themselves in the conflict.

(The Tywin and Jaime references would require some more thinking, but I'm keeping it focussed on dragons at the moment).

The fifth example has got nothing to do with dreams... That's Tyrion describing a massive hangover :)

Has Tyrion never seen dragons, prior to the start of the series? No, not actual living dragons... but there are books, and pictures drawn in those books, and if anyone has tried to take a look at those, it'd be Tyrion :) So we can't assume that he has never actually seen an image of a dragon. (Same would go for Prince Daeron, btw... descriptions, images... doesn't make it any less impressive, imo, though).

Also, this is what Aemon says about the dreams

(Maester AemonFFC/DwD) "I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one. Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend . . . or . .

I think we are seeing this differently. "My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one." Daeron had his prophetic dreams, and he heavily drank because of it... It would appear his dreams and combined drinking killed whatever spirit he had in him, until pox killed him (or perhaps, this is the official story, and Daeron's actual cause of death is different).

Aerion's dreams, we know how they killed him.. Drinking wildfire because you think it will change you into a dragon... If Aerion had seen a dragon born from the flames, it could have been a dream predicting a number of things. Rhaegar's birth at Summerhal, Dany's rebirth from Drogo's funeral pyre. The birth of the actual dragons (though you'd expect 1) that Aerion had seen multiple dragons (though he might have, we don't know), and 2) in prophetic dreams, the dragons seen always represent actual Targaryens, which would make this option the least likely one).

Aegon dreamt of dragons, and died for it at Summerhal.

Clearly Tyrion has always had issues with sleeping/dreaming. Other Targaryens knew they were Targaryens, so dreaming about Dragons or having prophetic dreams might not have bothered them quite so much since they knew what was going on. Tyrion has NO idea that Aerys is his father, so none of this makes any sense to him. But I think Tyrion's issues with sleep and dreaming line up perfectly with what Aemon says about it ; "My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one."

Yes, it is clear that Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping. Definitly. But the reasoning of "other Targaryens knew they were Targaryens..." I'm sorry, but knowing that you're dreaming weird stuff doesn't necessarily mean that it will be easier to handle.. Who says that Daeron knew his ancestors had the same dreams? Was that simply explained to every Targaryen child at some point? Or would the issue only have been brought up when a Targaryen dared to mention he was dreaming of dragons and stuff (like Daemon II and Brynden).

The one dream containing dragons that Tyrion has had, concerning Barristan, Bittersteel, and dragons flying through the sky during a battle, which has any potential of having been a prophetic one, does not give the impression later on that it caused Tyrion any trouble, or confusion.

Aemon's line of "my brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one", does not suggest anything about them feeling "what's going on?" when dreaming.. It was their interpretation of the dreams that killed them, the way they acted on it.

But Tyrion has never expressed that he has trouble sleeping because of any such dreams..

So the third example quote you provided above is the actual prophetic-feeling like dream Tyrion had containing dragons.. The fact that he dreamt about dragons, in this dream, though, doesn't mean that it is a Prophetic Targaryen Dragon Dream. Tyrion and Illyrio had been talking about Daenerys and her dragons earlier, and thus, Tyrion's dream could have been caused about that... Not necessarily, but the possibility exists.

The difference between this dream, and the dragondreams we do know of, contained only a dragon (doing something..), but never the actual person dreaming the dream at the same time (causing Daeron to not know whether he was the dead dragon, causing Daemon to believe he could be the hatching dragon)... And Tyrion is dreaming of himself too, in this dream... A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

A question.. if Tyrion is a Targaryen, he'd be a dragon, yet Moqorro makes a distinction, between the dragons that he sees, and Tyrion. Which would make Tyrion not a dragon.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thank you! :)

Ok, I think I understand what you are arguing..

Tyrion dreamt about dragons on occasions... Be it in the "I'm a small child and I want a puppy!" kind of dream, or in a possible "prophetic" kind of dream. Any type of dream whatsoever.

True.

Examples 1 and 3 are Tyrion dreaming as I am currently "dreaming" about getting a new appartment. They were not prophetic dreams.. But you said that yourself.

Example 4, I suspect, was more a joke than actual truth :)

Example 2, however, has quite a different feel to it. I can't be an exact view of the future... Bittersteel is long dead, after all :) Could it be that this dream is referring to the Second Dance, as Teora's dream is? Bittersteel, in this case, representing the Golden Company (Bittersteel created the GC after all), and Barristan representing Daenerys' forces.. In that case, we'd have people representing Aegon's forces, and Dany's forces, and the dragons flying in the sky would be the actual living dragons who are sure to mix themselves in the conflict.

(The Tywin and Jaime references would require some more thinking, but I'm keeping it focussed on dragons at the moment).

The fifth example has got nothing to do with dreams... That's Tyrion describing a massive hangover :)

#5. sure but he was still dreaming of dragons, other characters have had hangovers in the books, this is the only example of a hangover where dragons are involved. If you look at his dreams on the Shy Maid, which he describes almost everyone, the first three nights he dreams of dragons each night, then he cant remember his dreams for 2 days, then he switches to dreaming about this father being the Shrouded Lord and himself drowning for several more days. Clearly his dreams mean something, or else why would GRRM put in a description of his dreams every single night?

I am not claiming that any of the dreams mean anything specific. I have never been very good at interpreting dreams. What I am saying is that at 5 points in the books, Tyrion mentions having dragons in his dreams while he sleeps. Also the line "I seldom dream of dragons anymore" meaning that he used to quite often, but 'seldom' does anymore. This is clearly a hint that he has Targaryen blood, as there are no other characters who ever speak of having dreams involving dragons, except known Targs such as Dareon, Aemon, Dany, Rhaegar, Daenys the Dreamer, Shireen Baratheon, Dameon Blackfyre, Aerion Brightflame and Aegon V. All of these people are known Targs except Tyrion. My question is this; why would GRRM make Tyrion be the only person in all 5 books who is not a Targ have these dreams about dragons (prophetic or not)? Given all the A+J info and hints, what else could this mean realistically, in terms of writing a novel where one must lay out hints.

Also, I put this question to you; If Jon had any dream whatsoever involving a dragon, wouldn't that be solid proof of R+L=J?? C'mon now you know it would :)

1. Has Tyrion never seen dragons, prior to the start of the series? No, not actual living dragons... but there are books, and pictures drawn in those books, and if anyone has tried to take a look at those, it'd be Tyrion :) So we can't assume that he has never actually seen an image of a dragon. (Same would go for Prince Daeron, btw... descriptions, images... doesn't make it any less impressive, imo, though).

2. I think we are seeing this differently. "My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one." Daeron had his prophetic dreams, and he heavily drank because of it... It would appear his dreams and combined drinking killed whatever spirit he had in him, until pox killed him (or perhaps, this is the official story, and Daeron's actual cause of death is different).

Aerion's dreams, we know how they killed him.. Drinking wildfire because you think it will change you into a dragon... If Aerion had seen a dragon born from the flames, it could have been a dream predicting a number of things. Rhaegar's birth at Summerhal, Dany's rebirth from Drogo's funeral pyre. The birth of the actual dragons (though you'd expect 1) that Aerion had seen multiple dragons (though he might have, we don't know), and 2) in prophetic dreams, the dragons seen always represent actual Targaryens, which would make this option the least likely one).

Aegon dreamt of dragons, and died for it at Summerhal.

3. Yes, it is clear that Tyrion has always had trouble sleeping. Definitly. But the reasoning of "other Targaryens knew they were Targaryens..." I'm sorry, but knowing that you're dreaming weird stuff doesn't necessarily mean that it will be easier to handle.. Who says that Daeron knew his ancestors had the same dreams? Was that simply explained to every Targaryen child at some point? Or would the issue only have been brought up when a Targaryen dared to mention he was dreaming of dragons and stuff (like Daemon II and Brynden).

The one dream containing dragons that Tyrion has had, concerning Barristan, Bittersteel, and dragons flying through the sky during a battle, which has any potential of having been a prophetic one, does not give the impression later on that it caused Tyrion any trouble, or confusion.

Aemon's line of "my brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed them, every one", does not suggest anything about them feeling "what's going on?" when dreaming.. It was their interpretation of the dreams that killed them, the way they acted on it.

4. But Tyrion has never expressed that he has trouble sleeping because of any such dreams..

5. So the third example quote you provided above is the actual prophetic-feeling like dream Tyrion had containing dragons.. The fact that he dreamt about dragons, in this dream, though, doesn't mean that it is a Prophetic Targaryen Dragon Dream. Tyrion and Illyrio had been talking about Daenerys and her dragons earlier, and thus, Tyrion's dream could have been caused about that... Not necessarily, but the possibility exists.

The difference between this dream, and the dragondreams we do know of, contained only a dragon (doing something..), but never the actual person dreaming the dream at the same time (causing Daeron to not know whether he was the dead dragon, causing Daemon to believe he could be the hatching dragon)... And Tyrion is dreaming of himself too, in this dream... A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.

6. A question.. if Tyrion is a Targaryen, he'd be a dragon, yet Moqorro makes a distinction, between the dragons that he sees, and Tyrion. Which would make Tyrion not a dragon.

1. Yes that is exactly what i said, yes he has seen images, but never a real-life dragon, same as Dareon and Dameon, neither of them ever saw a live dragon in their lifetime, but still had dreams of full-grown dragons. Even if all three of them saw a drawing of a dragon, that is hardly the same thing as seeing Smaug standing above you in real life. To me it is impressive to dream of a corporeal animal which you have only seen drawn images of on parchment (not digital drawings) only sketches.

2. Yes that is exactly what I think as well. Tyrion seems to have similarities to Dareon, he can never sleep, he has had wakeful nights and fitfull sleep his whole life, dreams always filled with dragons. He says as much in DwD;

“And the nights were worse. Tyrion slept badly at the best of times, and this was far from that. Sleep meant dreams like as not"

"Sleep had never come easily to Tyrion Lannister. "

"The nights had never been kind to Tyrion Lannister. He slept badly even on soft feather beds.”

3. That was just a suggestion on my part, not really important info, I was just stating that at least the other Targs new why they were having dreams of dragons, Tyrion just thinks he has bad luck sleeping his whole life.

4. He sort of does say that, his nights are haunted by dreams.

5. ok, but by this reasoning then anyone who talks about Dany or her dragons could/should have a dream about dragons that night? Well this never happens, could it happen? I guess so, but GRRM never put it in the books, what he does put in is Tyrion having another night dreaming of dragons. JonCon talks a lot about Dany and her dragons as does Illyrio, Varys, Tywin, Ned, Robert Baratheon, fAegon, the GC, Barristan, everyone in SB.....yet none of them ever wake up in the middle of the night dreaming about dragons after such a conversation, only Tyrion. Look all that you are saying is correct, but there is a reason these things are in the books about Tyrion specifically, if having dreams about dragons meant nothing then everyone would have them or no one would have them. But WE know that they are important, as a 'dragon dream' (by Daenys) is what got the Targaryens out of Valyria and thus started the whole soiaf story to begin with, we know they mean something and that only certain people have them, that is a fact.

6. He puts Tyrion in the same thought and statement as all the dragons, he says he has a great snarling shadow. As in, a dragon shadow, I mean that's the way I see it. And of course GRRM is not going to let the reveal happen before Tyrion gets close to one of the dragons. These are all just hints, same as R+L=J, they have been laid out since the very first time we meet Tyrion in GOT, same as Jon. Hints since the first chapter.

Also, on a side note, most Targaryen kings were players, had many bastards, the family is sort of famous for having bastards. Aerys, in his youth, was just as blonde and handsome as any of them, why is he the only one who cannot have a bastard? the Targ family tree is littered with them, Tyrion just happens to be the last one.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

#5. sure but he was still dreaming of dragons, other characters have had hangovers in the books, this is the only example of a hangover where dragons are involved. If you look at his dreams on the Shy Maid, which he describes almost everyone, the first three nights he dreams of dragons each night, then he cant remember his dreams for 2 days, then he switches to dreaming about this father being the Shrouded Lord. Clearly his dreams mean something, or else why would GRRM put in a description of his dreams every single night?

Having a head hurting when you wake up, is not dreaming. :) A hangover is not a dream. "dragons fighting in his skull" is Tyrion's way of saying "someone is knocking a hammer on my head.." Massive hangover.

I'm not saying Tyrion is associated with dragons... But there's a difference in dreaming about dragons, and having Targaryen Dragon dreams.

Where is it stated that the first three nights he is dreaming of dragons? Those were not amongs the quotes you provided?

I am not claiming that any of the dreams mean anything specific. I have never been very good at interpreting dreams. What I am saying is that at 5 points in the books, Tyrion mentions having dragons in his dreams while he sleeps. Also the line "I seldom dream of dragons anymore" meaning that he used to quite often, but 'seldom' does anymore. This is clearly a hint that he has Targaryen blood, as there are no other characters who ever speak of having dreams involving dragons, except known Targs such as Dareon, Aemon, Dany, Rhaegar, Daenys the Dreamer, Shireen Baratheon, Dameon Blackfyre, Aerion Brightflame and Aegon V. All of these people are known Targs except Tyrion. My question is this; why would GRRM make Tyrion be the only person in all 5 books who is not a Targ have these dreams about dragons (prophetic or not)? Given all the A+J info and hints, what else could this mean realistically, in terms of writing a novel where one must lay out hints.

Four dreams... And to be quite honest, Tyrion dreaming of having a dragon of his own doesn't necessarily mean that he dreamt of them while he slept. I'm not sure how to express it in words (so I hope you understand), but I mean more in the sense of "dreaming to achieve your goal"... daydreaming and such.

Why associate Tyrion with dragons this heavily? Because he's going to be in the middle of the dragons, as Moqorro's quote I provided above shows.

Also, I put this question to you; If Jon had any dream whatsoever involving a dragon, wouldn't that be solid proof of R+L=J?? C'mon now you know it would :)

That would entirely depend on the dream, I'd say.

2. Yes that is exactly what I think as well. Tyrion seems to have similarities to Dareon, he can never sleep, he has had wakeful nights and fitfull sleep his whole life, dreams always filled with dragons. He says as much in DwD;

“And the nights were worse. Tyrion slept badly at the best of times, and this was far from that. Sleep meant dreams like as not"

"Sleep had never come easily to Tyrion Lannister. "

"The nights had never been kind to Tyrion Lannister. He slept badly even on soft feather beds.”

Daeron drank because of his dreams... I can't recall it stated that he, nor any other Targaryen who is known to have had the Targaryen Dragon Dreams, had any trouble sleeping..

5. ok, but by this reasoning then anyone who talks about Dany or her dragons could/should have a dream about dragons that night? Well this never happens, could it happen? I guess so, but GRRM never put it in the books, what he does put in is Tyrion having another night dreaming of dragons. JonCon talks a lot about Dany and her dragons as does Illyrio, Varys, Tywin, Ned, Robert Baratheon, fAegon, the GC, Barristan, everyone in SB.....yet none of them ever wake up in the middle of the night dreaming about dragons after such a conversation, only Tyrion. Look all that you are saying is correct, but there is a reason these things are in the books about Tyrion specifically, if having dreams about dragons meant nothing then everyone would have them or no one would have them. But WE know that they are important, as a 'dragon dream' (by Daenys) is what got the Targaryens out of Valyria and thus started the whole soiaf story to begin with, we know they mean something and that only certain people have them, that is a fact.

Could, definitly not should..

6. He puts Tyrion in the same thought and statement as all the dragons, he says he has a great snarling shadow. As in, a dragon shadow, I mean that's the way I see it. And of course GRRM is not going to let the reveal happen before Tyrion gets close to one of the dragons. These are all just hints, same as R+L=J, they have been laid out since the very first time we meet Tyrion in GOT, same as Jon. Hints since the first chapter.

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

Moqorro first speaks of dragons (be it 2 or 6), and then about a man (Tyrion).

Could be it is supposed to read as you say, but that's not the way I read it.

Also, on a side note, most Targaryen kings were players, had many bastards, the family is sort of famous for having bastards. Aerys, in his youth, was just as blonde and handsome as any of them, why is he the only one who cannot have a bastard? the Targ family tree is littered with them, Tyrion just happens to be the last one.

I'm not saying that it would have been impossible for Aerys to have had a bastard, just because. I feel that, where Aerys and Joanna are concerned together, taking in Tywin as a factor, there would be only a very small chance for Aerys to have fathered a bastard on Joanna..