What's the Meereenese Knot?

[HexMachina]

It's explained somewhere. Basically, the issue of who's reaching Meereen and when. Quentyn, Tyrion, Vicky, possibly Xaro Xhoan Daxos was included there, as well. I remember GRRM explaining it using Quentyn as an example: should he arrive to Meereen early in the book, right before the wedding, right after the wedding? He wrote all variants, and kept what he thought worked best.

This, in addition to the issue of how to deal with "Whats going on inside?" once Dany flew off on Drogon. That was when he introduced Barristan, I believe

[sifth]

I'd be rather happy if Quentyn was never made into a POV. He really brought nothing new to the table. His biggest contribution to the story is freeing the dragons.

I mean if any one can tell me what new info his chapters bring to the table I'm all ears. The whole Dorne alliance plan he pretty much tells Dany the second they meet.

[Good Guy Garlan]

QUentyn's POV was an opportunity to showcase the cool stuff about the journey, but what we got was details like "it smells like cat piss here," and "I'm awkward in this situation also."

It'd be nifty if the whole region "goes somewhere" and isn't just a total abortion. Then I'd re-invest and maybe even reread.

Exactly. And it's not like Quentyn offers an entirely fresh perspective on Slaver's Bay. His POV, as well as Dany's, Tyrion's, and Barristan's, still describes SB as a bunch of weird, one-dimensional Orientalist characters.

I'd be rather happy if Quentyn was never made into a POV. He really brought nothing new to the table. His biggest contribution to the story is freeing the dragons.

I mean if any one can tell me what new info his chapters bring to the table I'm all ears. The whole Dorne alliance plan he pretty much tells Dany the second they meet.

Agreed

[HexMachina]

I rather like Quentyn now. I think it comes from being a bit of an under-confident dweeb myself though, I see too much of myself in him :leaving:

[Maid So Fair]

I read somewhere that Barristan'a POV was how he solved the knot. I'm guessing he needed a POV inside Meereen by the time of the battle, but it couldn't be Dany's because she probably can't meet Tyrion and Victarion so early

That's quite interesting - I wonder what it is that they're going to do or say that means she can't meet them right now. Moreover, while Barristan has some really badass moments and we wouldn't be able to see the plan to attack unfold without him, I feel that it could have been observed by Tyrion from outside Meereen as well (be ends up watching the battle unfold anyway) and it would have been interesting to just hear about Barristan seizing power without necessarily having to witness it. Of course, that's assuming Barry doesn't do something in TWOW we don't know about yet. But maybe I'm missing something.

I wonder about the 5 year gap and it's relation to Dany's arc and the whole Meereen plot - was this something that has been the plan all along? Or is this just a result of the other characters (that needed the 5 year gap) not being ready for Dany's invasion of Westeros, and generally not being in place for it? Just like Cersei now has a very short time frame to screw everything up, Dany ends up not having the time to really try out her policies and put things back in order while remaining realistic and background plots, originally meant to be quickly summarised in flashbacks, end up taking centre stage.

[The Mountain That Flies]

I wonder about the 5 year gap and it's relation to Dany's arc and the whole Meereen plot - was this something that has been the plan all along? Or is this just a result of the other characters (that needed the 5 year gap) not being ready for Dany's invasion of Westeros, and generally not being in place for it? Just like Cersei now has a very short time frame to screw everything up, Dany ends up not having the time to really try out her policies and put things back in order while remaining realistic and background plots, originally meant to be quickly summarised in flashbacks, end up taking centre stage.

Both, probably. Dany needed to fail in order to set up her transformation into the character Martin wants to come to Westeros, which takes time. On the other hand, Westeros needs to be in the right circumstances Martin envisioned for Dany's arrival, which also takes time to occur seemingly organically.

Really, it probably revolved around specific ideas Matin had for the major story beats and how to have the narrative get there without seeming forced.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I mean if any one can tell me what new info his chapters bring to the table I'm all ears. The whole Dorne alliance plan he pretty much tells Dany the second they meet.

He's the next-closest to a neutral source on the mess in Slavers Bay. And he is our eye in Volantis/Yunkai/sellwords as well as the seedy underbelly of Meereen.

That's something neither Dany nor Barristan could deliver and which got only partially replaced by Tyrion late in the book. Well, more in WInds actually. In opposition to Tyrion, he is a soldier, not a slave. That helps as well.

Furthermore, he sets up potential problems with the Yronwoods on top of the more general Dornish problems.

[sifth]

He's the next-closest to a neutral source on the mess in Slavers Bay. And he is our eye in Volantis/Yunkai/sellwords as well as the seedy underbelly of Meereen.

That's something neither Dany nor Barristan could deliver and which got only partially replaced by Tyrion late in the book. Well, more in WInds actually. In opposition to Tyrion, he is a soldier, not a slave. That helps as well.

Furthermore, he sets up potential problems with the Yronwoods on top of the more general Dornish problems.

Why do we need eyes in the Yunkai camp.....for the one chapter he is even in their camp. To see Astapor fall........again. Yea that soooo couldn't of just happened off page.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Why do we need eyes in the Yunkai camp.....for the one chapter he is even in their camp. To see Astapor fall........again. Yea that soooo couldn't of just happened off page.

The mood, the motivations, Dany's public image being as worse as the Freys.

It's not the physical actions but the backgound information that's important in Quentyn's chapters.

[Maid So Fair]

The mood, the motivations, Dany's public image being as worse as the Freys.

It's not the physical actions but the backgound information that's important in Quentyn's chapters.

The problem is that presuming that the goal is to have Dany eventually leave the Slaver's Bay, the more you reinforce the idea that she's dug herself into a hole the harder it becomes to resolve that storyline in a realistic and satisfactory manner. It means creating more reasons why she can't leave.

[Mithras]

And then, people complained Quentyn was unnecessary (he was needed, to see the mess from outside. Kinda).

Now, I'm dying to read Vic's pov about SB. "what the fuck is this place???".

I wonder what will Victarion do to the next Meereenese he can grab when they explain him the folly fights.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The problem is that presuming that the goal is to have Dany eventually leave the Slaver's Bay, the more you reinforce the idea that she's dug herself into a hole the harder it becomes to resolve that storyline in a realistic and satisfactory manner. It means creating more reasons why she can't leave.

I may have a different expectation for Dany's storyline than you. One that aligns with the stuff in Quentyn's (and other) chapters quite reasonably. "Satisfactory" isn't part of it.

I wonder what will Victarion do to the next Meereenese he can grab when they explain him the folly fights.

Probably teach him the finger dance as a more honorable alternative. Starting right now.

[sifth]

The mood, the motivations, Dany's public image being as worse as the Freys.

It's not the physical actions but the backgound information that's important in Quentyn's chapters.

You've yet to convince me why this guy is worthy of being a POV. He does literally nothing, until he meets Dany, than tries to ride a dragon and dies.

The only thing important about his chapters are the end when he frees two dragons, his other two chapters just provided us with information we'd learn else wear.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You've yet to convince me why this guy is worthy of being a POV. He does literally nothing, until he meets Dany, than tries to ride a dragon and dies.

The only thing important about his chapters are the end when he frees two dragons, his other two chapters just provided us with information we'd learn else wear.

Do we? Only if you just glance at his chapters.

[sifth]

Do we? Only if you just glance at his chapters.

What do we learn from Quentyn that's IMPORTANT that we don't learn else wear. I'm not talking about the death of some random yoyo we never get to meet, I want important stuff. We learn that his father plans to make an alliance with Dany and he visits two locations that other POV characters will visit on their own.

[SnowHeart]

Poor Quentyn, he gets so much hate. I really feel for the guy. Basically every other character in the series is way into the morally grey area at least, it was refreshing to see the world through innocent eyes and really get some perspective on the morality.

Refreshing... then soul crushing rather quickly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why is Arya included if we could find out about the FM via Sam? :dunno:

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What do we learn from Quentyn that's IMPORTANT that we don't learn else wear. I'm not talking about the death of some random yoyo we never get to meet, I want important stuff. We learn that his father plans to make an alliance with Dany and he visits two locations that other POV characters will visit on their own.

That's the problem: You don't consider it important because you have a different expectation of Dany's arc in the last two books (I'm assuming).

I consider it important, because it shows Dany's lack of honor, incompetency in administrating a city and flawed self-image and sets up the conflict with Westerosi morals/Westeros in general.

It's helped along by the Arianne gift chapter and how she reacts to the rumors of Dany's behavior.

[Lord Lannister]

Poor Quentyn, he gets so much hate. I really feel for the guy. Basically every other character in the series is way into the morally grey area at least, it was refreshing to see the world through innocent eyes and really get some perspective on the morality.

Refreshing... then soul crushing rather quickly.

I think most of the hate is from the people who just don't think he's good enough for Dany but presumed to try anyways. I thought giving him the cold shoulder was one of her bigger blunders. Certainly he seemed a good guy, if a bit naive. Though his end was one of the more gruesome in the novels. Poor guy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I personally think Quentyn serves a lot to the story.

First, it shows us Slaver's Bay.

Second, he DOES HAVE dragon blood. And yet, he was attacked by a dragon. For all the people saying "Tyrion will ride a dragon because he's a Targaryen...!", well, it's not THAT easy. Viserion was kinda being tamed but Rhaegar didn't think so. It's more than just having Valyrian blood to tame a dragon, not to say ride it.

Third, and more important, Quentyn is the reason for Dorne to probably turn against Dany. And Dorne was probably Dany's biggest and only ally in Westeros. Now, they might not. What other character's death could have caused that? Dany landing in Westeros and Drogon accidentally eating Arianne?