What's the Meereenese Knot?

[Hangover of the Morning]

I personally think Quentyn serves a lot to the story.

First, it shows us Slaver's Bay.

Second, he DOES HAVE dragon blood. And yet, he was attacked by a dragon. For all the people saying "Tyrion will ride a dragon because he's a Targaryen...!", well, it's not THAT easy. Viserion was kinda being tamed but Rhaegar didn't think so. It's more than just having Valyrian blood to tame a dragon, not to say ride it.

Third, and more important, Quentyn is the reason for Dorne to probably turn against Dany. And Dorne was probably Dany's biggest and only ally in Westeros. Now, they might not. What other character's death could have caused that? Dany landing in Westeros and Drogon accidentally eating Arianne?

Nobody is questioning the importance of his character, rather the necessity of his POV.

First: We did see Slaver's Bay through other people's eyes: Danny, Barristan, Tyrion and Victarion

Second and third: We don't need Quentyns' thoughts to know that in the same way that we didn't need Renly's POV to understand that he is dead and that it will have important consequences for the politics in Westeros.

[Gogossos]

Quentyn released the dragons, that should be enough for his inclusion.

It's explained somewhere. Basically, the issue of who's reaching Meereen and when. Quentyn, Tyrion, Vicky, possibly Xaro Xhoan Daxos was included there, as well. I remember GRRM explaining it using Quentyn as an example: should he arrive to Meereen early in the book, right before the wedding, right after the wedding? He wrote all variants, and kept what he thought worked best.

This. Basically, each person who arrives impacts Dany in a certain way, and each sequence of the arrivals results in a different impact. So I think GRRM wanted a particular impact on Dany, so a specific sequence was required, which of course will affect the rest of the series in a major way. I also think that whilst he resolved the Meereenese Knot, we haven't seen the whole resolution on the page. The upcoming battle and its aftermath is when we'll see the Meereenese Knot get fully untied.

[Maid So Fair]

Why is Arya included if we could find out about the FM via Sam? :dunno:

I'm not sure why Sam needed a POV in Braavos, either :P

That's the problem: You don't consider it important because you have a different expectation of Dany's arc in the last two books (I'm assuming).

I consider it important, because it shows Dany's lack of honor, incompetency in administrating a city and flawed self-image and sets up the conflict with Westerosi morals/Westeros in general.

It's helped along by the Arianne gift chapter and how she reacts to the rumors of Dany's behavior.

If this is really the author's intention, which is far from certain, then why is it so ambiguous? Usually when a character makes a mistake it is pretty obvious, even if it is a mistake we can understand and sympathise with. For instance, it's clear that Ned telling Cersei or Robb marrying Jeyne are serious errors in judgement. When it comes to Dany, it is hard to tell where she went wrong, apart from not having a clear strategy going in (and there's little she can do about that once she's committed herself to staying). There's no moral lesson for her or the reader, and the situation in Meereen is quite different to the situation in Westeros. If Dany is going to make mistakes, it should be there.

[Dragon in the North]

Third, and more important, Quentyn is the reason for Dorne to probably turn against Dany. And Dorne was probably Dany's biggest and only ally in Westeros. Now, they might not. What other character's death could have caused that? Dany landing in Westeros and Drogon accidentally eating Arianne?

They could have simply supported Aegon when he landed, both as Elia's son or as the first Targaryen to land in Westeros.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If this is really the author's intention, which is far from certain, then why is it so ambiguous? Usually when a character makes a mistake it is pretty obvious, even if it is a mistake we can understand and sympathise with. For instance, it's clear that Ned telling Cersei or Robb marrying Jeyne are serious errors in judgement. When it comes to Dany, it is hard to tell where she went wrong, apart from not having a clear strategy going in (and there's little she can do about that once she's committed herself to staying). There's no moral lesson for her or the reader, and the situation in Meereen is quite different to the situation in Westeros. If Dany is going to make mistakes, it should be there.

It's an ongoing process. There is no single point of error to point towards, but Dany's entire arc since she married Drogo. First, we watched the white-washed version in Dany's PoV. Then Quentyn, who acknowledges a lot of it, or at least shows the stuff unbiased, but either dismisses the connection to Dany or doesn't pick it up.

Arianne goes further, she asks the question "What if the rumors are indeed true?" They are. And that's exceedingly bad.

The resolution is probably going to be the focus of the last two books.

GRRM has Tyrion experiencing a variant: While Dany's black deeds are whitewashed by the PoV witnessing them (and less so in the later books), Tyrion's black deeds shift from negatively affecting "unimportant background" or Cersei/Joffrey towards hurting "background with a face".

[Valyrian Lance]

Nobody is questioning the importance of his character, rather the necessity of his POV.

First: We did see Slaver's Bay through other people's eyes: Danny, Barristan, Tyrion and Victarion

Second and third: We don't need Quentyns' thoughts to know that in the same way that we didn't need Renly's POV to understand that he is dead and that it will have important consequences for the politics in Westeros.

In your opinion, would it have been better or worse if Quentyn had just shown up in a Dany POV with no preamble saying, "Hi, I'm Quentyn. We had this pact back in the day between my sis and your bro, well that's no good. So i'm here now. Let's do this."

[Isobel Harper]

http://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-i-who-poisoned-the-locusts/

This should help make sense of Dany's Mereene storyline.

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that interesting read.

[Good Guy Garlan]

In your opinion, would it have been better or worse if Quentyn had just shown up in a Dany POV with no preamble saying, "Hi, I'm Quentyn. We had this pact back in the day between my sis and your bro, well that's no good. So i'm here now. Let's do this."

Yes, because we already had the preamble back in aFfC. We knew Quentyn was travelling to Meereen, and Quaithe even mentions him as "the sun's son". It's like saying we needed Barristan's POV from the time he left KL, all the way to Pentos and Qarth. He showed up, said "hi", and it worked just fine like that. I don't know why the same couldn't apply to Quentyn

[sifth]

Yes, because we already had the preamble back in aFfC. We knew Quentyn was travelling to Meereen, and Quaithe even mentions him as "the sun's son". It's like saying we needed Barristan's POV from the time he left KL, all the way to Pentos and Qarth. He showed up, said "hi", and it worked just fine like that. I don't know why the same couldn't apply to Quentyn

I agree, we're told he's on the way at the end of AFFC, why did we need to see his traveling chapters. We know Marwyn is on his way to meet Dany and he's not a POV so why did we need one for Quentyn.

[PatrickStormborn]

The Meereenese knot is essentially the entire Meereen subplot: the insurgency, the order the characters arrive, when Daenerys leaves, what happens after she leaves, etc.

Essentially, Meereen became the most complicated part of the whole series (not surprising considering our current political climate).

It's an ongoing process. There is no single point of error to point towards, but Dany's entire arc since she married Drogo. First, we watched the white-washed version in Dany's PoV. Then Quentyn, who acknowledges a lot of it, or at least shows the stuff unbiased, but either dismisses the connection to Dany or doesn't pick it up.

Arianne goes further, she asks the question "What if the rumors are indeed true?" They are. And that's exceedingly bad.

The resolution is probably going to be the focus of the last two books.

GRRM has Tyrion experiencing a variant: While Dany's black deeds are whitewashed by the PoV witnessing them (and less so in the later books), Tyrion's black deeds shift from negatively affecting "unimportant background" or Cersei/Joffrey towards hurting "background with a face".

You're really missing the point of the rumours.

Arianne hears the rumours, and factually they're correct. Dany's husband killed her brother, and then later she became queen. But that is not the truth. GRRM is exploring the idea of rumours and how a lack of contextual understanding can have dire consequences.

Whilst Arianne's interpretation of the rumours are understandable, they are not reflective of the events as they happened. And that's important to the narrative. If not, GRRM wouldn't have shown us what actually happened or given us Dany's POV. We're supposed to understand why Arianne reaches her views and recognise the consequences they will have for Daenerys, but that doesn't mean they're right or that GRRM is condemning Daenerys. In fact, quite the opposite; the rumours tell us far more about other characters than they do about Dany. Think particularly about Quentyn's reactions to the rumours, or the things the slaver's say about her, or how Arianne projects her own insecurities and ambition onto Daenerys.

Just as Dany misunderstands some aspects of Robert's Rebellion and Robert misunderstands what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, many characters in the series will ultimately misunderstand Dany's past. We should understand their reasons, but that doesn't mean they're right to make those conclusions.

[thehandwipes]

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that interesting read.

You're very welcome.

There were I think several reasons to have Quentyn has a POV, none absolutely essential to the story, but all worthwhile. GRRM clearly wanted us to see the developing political situation in Volantis with three POV characters stopping by. What happened in Astapor, and thus the refugee situation after, wouldn't have had the impact if it happened off-page. He also added perspective to situation in SB, a perspective that wasn't Dany's or sitting right next to Dany. Finally, I think GRRM wanted to throw in a shocking death, he does tend to do that.

The problem with Quentyn's POVs are that he is boring. He could have been sincere, kind, bookish, kinda awkward, and uncertain without being so boring. His story would have been more interesting if didn't revolve around him traveling half-way across the known world to try and fail to overcome his greatest fear, talking to a girl. He was so clearly unfit for the challenge that his story was just sad, but not interesting. He didn't have to be Oberyn Martell, but if he was a little more Rhaegar Targaryen or Robb Stark, his chapters wouldn't receive so much hate.

I kept hoping that he'd step up, I was rooting for him (to at least become interesting). If Hizdahr represented peace, and Daario represented war, then what purpose did Quentyn serve in Dany's story? Westeros is boring. It would have been better if Quentyn did present a seductive alternative to Dany to leave SB and its problems and people behind. It would have been better if Quentyn was a little more like a young Rhaegar. Dany could have been underwhelmed at first, turned to Barristan and asked him his opinion. "Reminds me of your brother Rhaegar, Your Grace." Quentyn could have been deep without losing his innocent, kind nature. IMO.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think I get what GRRM was going for with Quentyn's POV (and Victarion's). Quaithe's warning makes it sound like a race to get to Dany first, so I think that's the sort of suspense GRRM wanted to build, like, "who will reach her first?"

But the execution, IMO, was sloppy, mostly because both Quentyn and Vic are not POV material (again, IMO), and I get the sense that for them it really is about the journey rather than the destination (i.e., they're dragon fodder, most likely), and the journey is not worth it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If you think Quentyn's pov was boring, they is GRRM success because Quentyn himself is... well... boring. Kinda.

It's like when readers actually believe that Doran is doing nothing. Doran laughs at you, silly.

[Sanset]

I personally think Quentyn serves a lot to the story.

First, it shows us Slaver's Bay.

Second, he DOES HAVE dragon blood. And yet, he was attacked by a dragon. For all the people saying "Tyrion will ride a dragon because he's a Targaryen...!", well, it's not THAT easy. Viserion was kinda being tamed but Rhaegar didn't think so. It's more than just having Valyrian blood to tame a dragon, not to say ride it.

Third, and more important, Quentyn is the reason for Dorne to probably turn against Dany. And Dorne was probably Dany's biggest and only ally in Westeros. Now, they might not. What other character's death could have caused that? Dany landing in Westeros and Drogon accidentally eating Arianne?

I totally agree!

He has dragon blood from the trueborn daughter of Aegon IV. Which has implications in the "musical chairs game".

I think Quentyn PoV shows Doran's game. There's no way Doran was planning on trusting someone like Quentyn in anything of importance. He had a tough time in trusting Arianne, but at least she is cunning and Martell. Quentyn is totally naïve and too close to the Yronwoods.

His PoV is needed because it plays a kind of contrast to Arianne PoV.

ETA: ... And it brings us back to the Great Bastards...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You're really missing the point of the rumours.

Arianne hears the rumours, and factually they're correct. Dany's husband killed her brother, and then later she became queen. But that is not the truth. GRRM is exploring the idea of rumours and how a lack of contextual understanding can have dire consequences.

Whilst Arianne's interpretation of the rumours are understandable, they are not reflective of the events as they happened. And that's important to the narrative. If not, GRRM wouldn't have shown us what actually happened or given us Dany's POV. We're supposed to understand why Arianne reaches her views and recognise the consequences they will have for Daenerys, but that doesn't mean they're right or that GRRM is condemning Daenerys. In fact, quite the opposite; the rumours tell us far more about other characters than they do about Dany. Think particularly about Quentyn's reactions to the rumours, or the things the slaver's say about her, or how Arianne projects her own insecurities and ambition onto Daenerys.

Just as Dany misunderstands some aspects of Robert's Rebellion and Robert misunderstands what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, many characters in the series will ultimately misunderstand Dany's past. We should understand their reasons, but that doesn't mean they're right to make those conclusions.

That's your opinion. That we differ in judgement in that case is an old hat.

It is especially prevalent in the Quentyn chapter with the Windblown. Because the rumors are simply true, and the truth is almost as low as the Red Wedding, according to Westerosi moral standards.

And the circumstances don't change a whiff about it.

That Dany doesn't recognize that is her problem and it will probably be her undoing.

[SeanF]

I enjoyed Quentyn's story. "The Dragontamer" is one of the best chapters in the series, IMHO. It's both blackly funny, and very sad.

WRT Dany/Viserys

I think that plenty of people in Westeros will view Dany as a kinslayer, who connived at her brother's murder, just as Arianne does. The Targaryens after all, have form, when it comes to murdering close relatives.

Dany herself feels an immense weight of guilt about his death. But it seems to me that she has nothing really to reproach herself for, looking at the matter objectively. She did try to save him. But, there was nothing she could have done to save a man who was bent on his own destruction.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

WRT Dany/Viserys

I think that plenty of people in Westeros will view Dany as a kinslayer, who connived at her brother's murder, just as Arianne does. The Targaryens after all, have form, when it comes to murdering close relatives.

Dany herself feels an immense weight of guilt about his death. But it seems to me that she has nothing really to reproach herself for, looking at the matter objectively. She did try to save him. But, there was nothing she could have done to save a man who was bent on his own destruction.

It's not Dany/Viserys that's the biggest problem. It's "She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim, She's broken truces, tortured envoys..."

[Maid So Fair]

It's not Dany/Viserys that's the biggest problem. It's "She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim, She's broken truces, tortured envoys..."

People love good gossip material - the more ridiculous the more likely it is to spread like wildfire. Shireen is a child of the union between Selyse (who has a beard bigger than most men) and Patchface, Stannis burns his own men in service of false gods, all Northmen are werewolves and Rheanyra was an evil succubus. I'd like to believe that more intelligent people will take similar rumours with a huge grain of salt.

[SeanF]

People love good gossip material - the more ridiculous the more likely it is to spread like wildfire. Shireen is a child of the union between Selyse (who has a beard bigger than most men) and Patchface, Stannis burns his own men in service of false gods, all Northmen are werewolves and Rheanyra was an evil succubus. I'd like to believe that more intelligent people will take similar rumours with a huge grain of salt.

"The best lies are seasoned with a grain of truth."

There is truth in all those allegations against Dany, although certainly not the whole truth.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

People love good gossip material - the more ridiculous the more likely it is to spread like wildfire. Shireen is a child of the union between Selyse (who has a beard bigger than most men) and Patchface, Stannis burns his own men in service of false gods, all Northmen are werewolves and Rheanyra was an evil succubus. I'd like to believe that more intelligent people will take similar rumours with a huge grain of salt.

With the small problem that these rumors are the utter truth.