Michael Brown Shooting: The Aftermath of the Grand Jury Decision

[K-26dp]

Yes, Michael Brown's robbing the store doesn't justify him being killed. But I believe it should be taken into account when looking at the incident with Wilson.

This is a person who just robbed a store, and assaulted the clerk to boot.

Does that make him guilty of going for Wilson's gun? No.

Is it relevant to the shooting? I think it certainly had an impact on the indictment.

That's the problem. It seems clear the incident at the store (robbery or not) had an bearing on Wilson's state of mind when the altercation started. It may have had a bearing on Brown's.

What it shouldn't impact is the on determining if Wilson should have been indicted. It's clear that there was probable cause to believe a crime was committed. State of mind and the like would then be included in trial defense.

The grand jury screwed up.

Also... if someone had just committed robbery, would that person most likely want to avoid altercations with the police?

[K-26dp]

I honestly believe Wilson when he says he would have done the same if Brown were a white guy. No jury is going to indict a police officer who shot a man who physically assaulted him after showing nothing but contempt for the law.

If Brown had been shot dead at the car during a fight with the gun as Wilson described, I don't think many would disagree.

Unfortunately, Brown was gunned down 150 feet from the point of the altercation and according to 11 witnesses had is hands in the air in surrender.

I am absolutely not convinced that Wilson is actually guilty of murder. I am however positive that by denying a trial, there has been a gross miscarriage of justice.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

Why the suffering fuck would you think it appropriate to compare police interacting with citizens in an American city with troops at a checkpoint in Iraq? The whole fucking problem is police acting like an occupying army and not like civil servants.

It's really not that much of a difference really. Well, the similarities being the two are present to protect. A troop at a check point isn't engaging an enemy, he is there to stop any threats that arise. And in a similar situation he would have to determine what action to take. I asked because he was speaking of his military experience.

[mormont]

I respect your opinion, but I'd disagree with the racial aspect. There is no evidence of any racial motivation.

I'm glad you respect my opinion, but I'm not sure you read it very carefully. I haven't suggested a racial 'motivation'. I've said that racist beliefs may have contributed to it. Very different.

This idea that unless the killing was racially motivated, it can't have any racist aspect to it, is either a colossal failure of imagination, a tragic lack of understanding of what racism is and how it works, or a rhetorical tactic. (To be fair, in most cases I think it's a mix the first two.) Take this:

Brown did rob a store. Brown was jaywalking. Brown assaulted a police officer. Brown failed to comply. All of these crimes Brown committed warranted a citation at the least or an arrest at the worst. Neither of those punishments were brought about by any racial issue.

So, you're contending that a white kid who had been in Brown's situation would have got the same reaction from Wilson, at each stage of this sequence of events?

I have to say, I strongly doubt that. In fact, millions of Americans doubt it too. And the statistics tend to support our view. If Brown had been a white kid, he would be considerably less likely to have been stopped in the first place. If he had been stopped, it's likely Wilson would have handled the stop differently, and the assault would be less likely to have happened. If the assault had happened, Wilson would be likely to have handled it differently. His own testimony, as others have pointed out, shows the signs of this: he uses language that he would be much less likely to use about a white kid. Those may have been his honest impressions - but the point is, those impressions are coloured by his world-view. That's what racism is. That's how it works. It's not about white sheets and burning crosses: it's about perceptions.

The fact is, police officers do not react to black kids the same way they do white kids. And that is a racial issue.

[Jslay427]

Also... if someone had just committed robbery, would that person most likely want to avoid altercations with the police?

We know by toxicology tests that he recently smoked weed. Couple that with the video and we see a kid who wasn't in his right mind.

[TrueMetis]

We know he was punched on each side of his face. On the back of his head even. Would you deny that? The fact that he doesn't look beat up enough to you matters not. What evidence is there that says Wilson isn't telling the truth? If there is none, why do you assume he's being dishonest?

No we don't. We have Wilson's say so and physical evidence that could mean a number of different things. For all we know he could have smacked his face on the door.

What evidence is there that says Wilson isn't telling the truth? If there is none, why do you assume he's being dishonest?

Doesn't need to be dishonest, but we know there's weeks between the event and him giving his testimony. In that time it is a guarantee, because of how human memory works, that what he says happened and what actually happened are two different things.

here's a video with some examples

[YoungGriff89]

Why the suffering fuck would you think it appropriate to compare police interacting with citizens in an American city with troops at a checkpoint in Iraq? The whole fucking problem is police acting like an occupying army and not like civil servants.

That isn't how escalation of force works and I never said he should let them go. De-escalate doesn't mean let him go, it means don't jump from verbal non-compliance and counter with hard open hand control leading into deadly force. If someone is saying no even if they're saying it in angry manner grabbing them is escalating the situation not de-escalating. Hitting them with your car door because you're parked too close isn't de-escalating things either.

And Michael Brown died 150 feet away from the vehicle. Not 10, not 20, not 50, not 100! 150 feet away. Radio your back up say he's running whatever direction, holster your gun and pull out your taser, get in your car and go after him. He had myriad options and chose to keep shooting.

[DanteGabriel]

So, you're contending that a white kid who had been in Brown's situation would have got the same reaction from Wilson, at each stage of this sequence of events?

I have to say, I strongly doubt that. In fact, millions of Americans doubt it too. And the statistics tend to support our view. If Brown had been a white kid, he would be considerably less likely to have been stopped in the first place. If he had been stopped, it's likely Wilson would have handled the stop differently, and the assault would be less likely to have happened. If the assault had happened, Wilson would be likely to have handled it differently. His own testimony, as others have pointed out, shows the signs of this: he uses language that he would be much less likely to use about a white kid. Those may have been his honest impressions - but the point is, those impressions are coloured by his world-view. That's what racism is. That's how it works. It's not about white sheets and burning crosses: it's about perceptions.

The fact is, police officers do not react to black kids the same way they do white kids. And that is a racial issue.

Has there been mention of the "#crimingwhilewhite" hashtag yet?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/05/business/media/grand-jury-decision-leads-to-confessions-of-crimingwhilewhite.html?_r=0

People absolutely are treated differently by police, and by society at large, based on racial characteristics.

We know by toxicology tests that he recently smoked weed. Couple that with the video and we see a kid who wasn't in his right mind.

What is this, Reefer Madness? Weed doesn't make people hyper-aggressive, liable to start fights with cops, and able to shrug off gun wounds to keep charging. That's another detail that makes me really doubt Wilson's characterization of events.

[Larry of the Lawn]

We know by toxicology tests that he recently smoked weed. Couple that with the video and we see a kid who wasn't in his right mind.

Yes we all know about the plague of kids getting high smoking a joint and then attacking people. It's crazy, really.

[Jslay427]

I was using the weed as a way to possibly excuse his behavior in the store. Maybe your right. Maybe he acted like that all the time.

[TerraPrime]

We know by toxicology tests that he recently smoked weed. Couple that with the video and we see a kid who wasn't in his right mind.

You do know that THC residues from marijuanna can persist in the body weeks after canabis use, right? That Brown's post-mortem tox screen showing canabis use does NOT mean that he was high at the time when he was shot to death by Wilson?

And Michael Brown died 150 feet away from the vehicle. Not 10, not 20, not 50, not 100! 150 feet away. Radio your back up say he's running whatever direction, holster your gun and pull out your taser, get in your car and go after him. He had myriad options and chose to keep shooting.

As I recall, he didn't bring the taser because it wsn't comfortable to wear it on his belt. But he did have pepper spray and baton.

In general, I believe that Wilson did fear for his life, despite the light damage sustained. He over-reacted and thought the threat was more severe than it was and then reacted accordingly. All the signs point to him being easily-scared and panicking. He reminds me of the character in The Green Mile, the sadistic prison guard who was also a coward.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

If Brown had been shot dead at the car during a fight with the gun as Wilson described, I don't think many would disagree.

Unfortunately, Brown was gunned down 150 feet from the point of the altercation and according to 11 witnesses had is hands in the air in surrender.

I am absolutely not convinced that Wilson is actually guilty of murder. I am however positive that by denying a trial, there has been a gross miscarriage of justice.

Yeah but that's just not true. There were three breaks in the gunfire. Brown at any point could have surrendered during those pauses. And many of the witnesses claiming he had his hands up in surrender were proven to be lying by the testimony of more reliable witnesses. They were the same witnesses claiming he was shot in the back, which was clearly not the case.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Yeah but that's just not true. There were three breaks in the gunfire. Brown at any point could have surrendered during those pauses. And many of the witnesses claiming he had his hands up in surrender were proven to be lying by the testimony of more reliable witnesses. They were the same witnesses claiming he was shot in the back, which was clearly not the case.

This isn't true. Your characterization of the witnesses reliability isn't based on any factual account, it's just your opinion. There are inconsistencies with Witness #10, the one labeled "reliable" by the prosecutor. Specifically, how far away he was from the incident, and also his accounts of Brown's actions. None of the other witnesses were proven to be lying, that's just your interpretation.

[Jslay427]

The levels of THC can indicate with reasonable accurate how recent a person smoked/ingested Marijuana.

[Larry of the Lawn]

The levels of THC can indicate with reasonable accurate how recent a person smoked/ingested Marijuana.

Yeah but other than knowing Brown was high at some point in the 48 hours before he was shot, what's your point? And I don't know what your experience is with weed but it doesn't seem to have any correlation with violence.

[karaddin]

So one thing I haven't seen explained. Wilson is in the drivers seat of his car when the struggle takes place and Brown allegedly reached for his gun, and Brown landed two punches that made Wilson fear for his life if a third landed while he is in this position. In the US the driver is on the left side of the car, so the window is to his left... How is it that the only mark from these life threatening blows is on his RIGHT cheek? Is there a reasonable explanation for that?

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

I'm glad you respect my opinion, but I'm not sure you read it very carefully. I haven't suggested a racial 'motivation'. I've said that racist beliefs may have contributed to it. Very different.

This idea that unless the killing was racially motivated, it can't have any racist aspect to it, is either a colossal failure of imagination, a tragic lack of understanding of what racism is and how it works, or a rhetorical tactic. (To be fair, in most cases I think it's a mix the first two.) Take this:

So, you're contending that a white kid who had been in Brown's situation would have got the same reaction from Wilson, at each stage of this sequence of events?

I have to say, I strongly doubt that. In fact, millions of Americans doubt it too. And the statistics tend to support our view. If Brown had been a white kid, he would be considerably less likely to have been stopped in the first place. If he had been stopped, it's likely Wilson would have handled the stop differently, and the assault would be less likely to have happened. If the assault had happened, Wilson would be likely to have handled it differently. His own testimony, as others have pointed out, shows the signs of this: he uses language that he would be much less likely to use about a white kid. Those may have been his honest impressions - but the point is, those impressions are coloured by his world-view. That's what racism is. That's how it works. It's not about white sheets and burning crosses: it's about perceptions.

The fact is, police officers do not react to black kids the same way they do white kids. And that is a racial issue.

How exactly would Wilson have told a white kid to get out of the road any differently than a black kid? Your suggesting there is some thing racial about a cop telling someone to get out of the road. I contend that he's just doing his job, regardless of the ethnicity of the individual he's speaking to. There seems to be a lot talk about what Wilson could have /should have done differently, yet no accountability on Brown's part.

[DanteGabriel]

So one thing I haven't seen explained. Wilson is in the drivers seat of his car when the struggle takes place and Brown allegedly reached for his gun, and Brown landed two punches that made Wilson fear for his life if a third landed while he is in this position. In the US the driver is on the left side of the car, so the window is to his left... How is it that the only mark from these life threatening blows is on his RIGHT cheek? Is there a reasonable explanation for that?

Yeah, a lying cop who is given the very rare privilege of testifying at his own grand jury hearing and isn't cross-examined by prosecution.

[TrueMetis]

So one thing I haven't seen explained. Wilson is in the drivers seat of his car when the struggle takes place and Brown allegedly reached for his gun, and Brown landed two punches that made Wilson fear for his life if a third landed while he is in this position. In the US the driver is on the left side of the car, so the window is to his left... How is it that the only mark from these life threatening blows is on his RIGHT cheek? Is there a reasonable explanation for that?

Sure but it puts a whole lot of doubt on the whole "feared for his life" thing since a hit to the right side of his face would be awkward as hell and carry no force at all. Which is basically what the physical evidence suggests, it doesn't show a very hard hit.

[karaddin]

I don't consider that reasonable, but its certainly an explanation I considered :

ETA: Replying to Dante.