Unpopular ASOIAF opinions

[INCBlackbird]

What if Edmure had not surrender Riverrun? Would Jaime have sent baby Tully to him with a trebuchet? Edmure didn't want to find out. Neither did Balon. That's the point of a good threat.

Thinking Ned is "morally wrong" by taking a hostage is judging him with our views, which is another unpopular opinion: JUDGE THE CHARACTER WITHIN THE CONTEXT THEY LIVE ON. We might think they are wrong, but CONTEXT MATTERS. People don't act out of cruelty but because it's EXPECTED OF THEM to act that way. Edmure was also a hostage of Jaime, he and his family become that. What was Jaime supposed to do? Say "oh, well, I trust you... leave freely".

I actually don't judge Ned for what he did to Theon. that's not my problem with him. my problem with him is that he's self rightious, judgemental and a hypocrite and that is where the thing with Theon does come in, people say he's against killing children all the time but clearly he's not because Theon counts as a child. which makes him a hypocrite because he considers the murders of the martell kids wrong and not what happens to Theon. this is why I say he has no sense of what is right and what is wrong, he considers what happens to Theon right because it is right according to the law. while Jaime for example became bitter after being told that he had to let the mad king do all these horrible things and even protect him simply because he swore an oath. Jaime knew this was morally wrong, no matter what the law says. Ned clearly did not. Ned's moral code is not based on what he "feels" is wrong but what he was "taught" is wrong.

[James Arryn]

not the "law" Ned was taught by Jon arryn, that's the one I'm talking about. I should have specified probably but I didn't know any better word to discribe it. maybe it's more about the moral code he was taught then the actual law. but this moral code tells him that you cannot break your oath no matter what and that is a really black and white way to look at the world and it's got nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong. Jaime and Theon get this, Ned does not.

Ah, ok, that's different. However Ned does make moral compromises, too. He lies to his friend/King, not just about Jon, but also about Tyrion's kidnapping/arrest. And he swears to a treason he did not commit, to save Sansa.

That said, I think Jon Arryn makes similar compromises, and probably more than Ned's. He's 1 part High As Honour, 1 part realpolitik.

[James Arryn]

I actually don't judge Ned for what he did to Theon. that's not my problem with him. my problem with him is that he's self rightious, judgemental and a hypocrite and that is where the thing with Theon does come in, people say he's against killing children all the time but clearly he's not because Theon counts as a child. which makes him a hypocrite because he considers the murders of the martell kids wrong and not what happens to Theon. this is why I say he has no sense of what is right and what is wrong, he considers what happens to Theon right because it is right according to the law. while Jaime for example became bitter after being told that he had to let the mad king do all these horrible things and even protect him simply because he swore an oath. Jaime knew this was morally wrong, no matter what the law says. Ned clearly did not. Ned's moral code is not based on what he "feels" is wrong but what he was "taught" is wrong.

I really only see him being self-righteous with Jaime and maybe LF. Otherwise he expresses a lot of internal doubts about his choices pretty consistently throughout GoT.

[INCBlackbird]

Theon made his own choice, Ramsay had nothing to do with it. And feeling bad about something doesn't make it right. And it was Theon's father who put his life at risk by staging a ridiculous rebellion that had a 0% chance of success. Ned took Theon to prevent another war that would have cost many lives. Anyway, the point is moot. Theon killed children. Ned didn't kill Theon.

Ramsay had a lot to do with it. he planned the whole thing and manipulated Theon into agreeing, Theon is still responsible but don't act like it was only him, it was mostly Ramsay.

it doesn't matter whether it was Balon's fault or not, it definitly wasn't Theon's so why does everyone think it's ok for him to pay for his father's sins?

Ned didn't kill Theon because Balon waited until he was dead to attack, if he'd attacked sooner he would have that was the whole point of him being there.

[INCBlackbird]

Even if Balon rebelled, Ned would have never have been able to bring himself to kill Theon.

isn't the point of Ned's character that he keeps to his word?

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

Ramsay had a lot to do with it. he planned the whole thing and manipulated Theon into agreeing, Theon is still responsible but don't act like it was only him, it was mostly Ramsay.

it doesn't matter whether it was Balon's fault or not, it definitly wasn't Theon's so why does everyone think it's ok for him to pay for his father's sins?

Ned didn't kill Theon because Balon waited until he was dead to attack, if he'd attacked sooner he would have that was the whole point of him being there.

If Theon wanted the boys to live, he only had to say the word. That's why it is mostly his fault. Ultimately, it was his decision. And it does matter that it's Balon's fault, because you're blaming Ned for Balon's actions. If he hadn't rebelled, Theon wouldn't have been taken hostage. It's that simple.

[INCBlackbird]

If Theon wanted the boys to live, he only had to say the word. That's why it is mostly his fault. Ultimately, it was his decision. And it does matter that it's Balon's fault, because you're blaming Ned for Balon's actions. If he hadn't rebelled, Theon wouldn't have been taken hostage. It's that simple.

nope, I'm not blaming Ned for Balon's actions. I'm not blaming him for the rebellion, i'm not even blaming him for taking Theon, I'm calling him a hypocrite for saying he's against the killing of children and not extending that to Theon.

[Dragon in the North]

nope, I'm not blaming Ned for Balon's actions. I'm not blaming him for the rebellion, i'm not even blaming him for taking Theon, I'm calling him a hypocrite for saying he's against the killing of children and not extending that to Theon.

Technically, it would have only been hypocrisy if Ned had killed Theon after saying he's against killing children.

[SeanF]

Victarion plan to capture the dragons will succeed. He will also have Daenerys for bed slave. Her who fought slavery will become one of them. And of the most shameful category.

He has the Dragonbinder horn and Moqorro, the most powerful of R'hllor priests to support him.

This is the only way Daenerys and the dragons can return to Westeros. Everything GRRM did with the Meereen knot was to bury her in Essos, to make it impossible to return to Westeros. Daenerys will return only as a slave and the Slaver's Bay will fully revert to slavery. All Daenerys children will die under Yunkai and Khal Jhaqo heels. Daenerys will become fully mad.

Is this what you think will happen, or what you hope will happen.

[Facebookless Man]

Ned wasn't really naive. He made mostly conscious choices in the face on dangers he mostly understood. I think only Sansa's betrayal caught him completely flat-footed, and without that I think he's pretty much ok with the cost of choosing honour over self-interest.

This times a million. People don't even seem to grasp the concept of Honour. And the corollary: "Sansa is exactly like Ned" when she is pretty much the opposite. Gah.

[INCBlackbird]

Technically, it would have only been hypocrisy if Ned had killed Theon after saying he's against killing children.

he swore an oath that he would have, Ned keeps to his oaths, that's the basis of his entire character. so he would have. plus, he kept him hostage for 10 years under threat of death, in my book that's just as bad. imaging having to grow up knowing you could be killed anyday and on top of that having to witness execusions knowing that might be you one day. if Ned understood right and wrong he would have counted that as wrong and not honorable at all.

[Dragon in the North]

he swore an oath that he would have, Ned keeps to his oaths, that's the basis of his entire character. so he would have. plus, he kept him hostage for 10 years under threat of death, in my book that's just as bad. imaging having to grow up knowing you could be killed anyday and on top of that having to witness execusions knowing that might be you one day. if Ned understood right and wrong he would have counted that as wrong and not honorable at all.

That still doesn't make him a hypocrite. Dealing with what ifs is counterproductive.

[BalerionTheCat]

Is this what you think will happen, or what you hope will happen.

I believe this scenario is possible. But it is probably not what GRRM intends. It would be, if fully developed as what I describe, one of the ugliest things to have happened in the story so far. Remaining humble, I judge it not beyond what GRRM could decide.

Whether I want it or not, I not sure. Agreed, I'm not a great Daenerys lover (no pun intended). But I think it would give strength to the whole story as I feel it.

[SeanF]

I believe this scenario is possible. But it is probably not what GRRM intends. It would be, if fully developed as what I describe, one of the ugliest things to have happened in the story so far. Remaining humble, I judge it not beyond what GRRM could decide.

Whether I want it or not, I not sure. Agreed, I'm not a great Daenerys lover (no pun intended). But I think it would give strength to the whole story as I feel it.

I think GRRM has said we won't see any POV characters being raped, so we won't see Dany become a sex slave.

[INCBlackbird]

That still doesn't make him a hypocrite. Dealing with what ifs is counterproductive.

if you ask me, it's not a what if, he made that decision years before the story started.

[Dragon in the North]

if you ask me, it's not a what if, he made that decision years before the story started.

He was disgusted with the murder of Elia's children, he was disgusted with the assassination attempt on Dany, and he was disgusted with the death of Mycha. We can't know for sure if he would have killed Theon if it came to it, and making presumptions with no evidence is pointless and will lead us nowhere.

[BalerionTheCat]

I think GRRM has said we won't see any POV characters being raped, so we won't see Dany become a sex slave.

I suppose he was referring to enduring a rape while being POV.

GRRM has never explicited sex or rape scenes. I suppose that whatever his rules, he could deal with that elegantly.

[Lointain]

The episodes in Meereen are among the best in ASOIAF.

The episodes in Braavos are among the worst in ASOIAF.

[Jasta11]

Jaime is not on a redemption path.

Sandor Clegane is as big or perhaps bigger an asshole than Tyrion is.

Arya's character isn't really going anywhere since ASOS.

Roose Bolton doesn't seem like an especially intelligent plotter, and his biggest success was leaving a sinking ship.

Melissandre isn't a completely evil religious fanatic.

[Minsc]

While, I have no problem with people rising up against him Joffrey was still the legal king.

Simply, Westeros society can only work the presumption that a woman's children are her husband's true children.

Thus, until Stannis presents legal evidence proving the twincest legally in Westeros Joff and company are the true heirs.

Simply, claiming they are bastards and attempting to seize the throne by force isn't following any legal principle.