R+L=J v.117

[Kingmonkey]

To give her a chance at a good life? As a legitimate Dayne, she has much better options than a bastard, even in Dorne, not to mention the ugly history of her mother's dishonour which may further hamper her chances.

It's possible, of course. But as you say, Dorne. The Sand Snakes appear to have a decent enough life. Maybe the Daynes thought they were running out of legitimate family and needed another. Maybe Ashara said "promise me" to her older brother before she jumped.

[Avalatis]

The clues for Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother:

1. Ashara and Ned danced together once.

2. Ned put a stop to rumors that Ashara was Jon's mother.

3. Ned went to Starfall to give back Dawn.

4. Jon's wetnurse, Wylla, has served at Starfall.

Problems:

1. STILL doesn't explain why Ned never tells anyone, including Jon, who his mother is.

2. Selmy says that Ashara had a stillborn daughter...not a son.

3. There is no evidence putting Ned and Ashara together at the time of Jon's conception.

4. There is no discernible reason for Ned to take Ashara's child from her, driving her to suicide.

This could still be a possibility, but has less evidence to support it. It would also be less satisfying with little to gain from a reveal. The Dayne family has a lot of mystery behind it. Definitely a house I would like the last two books to reveal more about.

Assuming N+A=J, why would he keep it a secret? She was dead so trying to preserve her honor doesn't make sense. How would such a reveal do anything to impact the story in book 6? I guess Jon could inherit Dawn? But he already has a sword.

So while there is some mystery behind the Dayne house, the minimal impact to Jon from the reveal doesn't add up to the prolonged mystery.

[PrettyPig]

When hiding in Braavos, Oberyn Martell signed a pact with Willam Darry, with the Sealord as a witness.

So somewhere in between 284 and 289 AC.

Dany's marriage was a political move,necessary to happen that year, it a few years layer.

same with Sansa, and with Margaery.

There is no exact age for marriage of betrothal.. at times, it occurs when the child still an infant. Amongst the royal house, 13 for marriages seemed to be the minimum, though here were a few exceptions. When politics come into play, then 14/15/16 becomes the age most often "used".

And when there are peace times, 16-18 is often used, though not always, it could be younger.

Saying that Allyria couldn't have been 18 in 298 because then an unproven theory wouldn't work anymore is a terrible argument. Keep Allyrias parents into account.. Ashara, if she had lived, would have been in her 30ties.. Ashara had two older siblings, and her mother would have been at least around 13, if not older, when the eldest of her children was born (Edrics dad).

The younger you make Allyria, the older the mother becomes. Mother would have been born the earliest around roughly 245 AC.

Could Allyria have been born in only 285, for example? Sure, but the younger Ashara, he younger the mother (and that is assuming a mid30ties Ashara with a young mother and only a few months between end and start of he first three pregnancies).

See the problem?

To clarify:

I agree that Allyria could be older than 14 in 298.

However, I do NOT agree that she could be 18 in 298 and be the daughter of BRANDON or NED. You know, since the tourney where Ashara was 'dishonored' wasn't held until 281.

She could be no one of special importance/exactly who she is said to be, the daughter of Daddy and Mommy Dayne, if she were 18 in 298, but not the offspring of the other usual suspects.

[PrettyPig]

There's no evidence at all that points to Aegon having been at the ToJ. This is simply another "I want to buy your rock" argument...ie: saying something happened that has no evidence but can't be 'disproven' because of a gap in the information. The KG were already AT the ToJ before Aegon "supposedly" left KL, so it wasn't as if they were there to protect him. By this logic, I could say that the Cookie Monster was at the ToJ.

I will remember this the next time this topic veers toward squeegy twoo wuv discussion of the heart tree ceremony performed by a wandering septon on the Isle of Faces.

[sj4iy]

I will remember this the next time this topic veers toward squeegy twoo wuv discussion of the heart tree ceremony performed by a wandering septon on the Isle of Faces.

Difference here:

Aegon:

Last known location: KL

Lyanna:

Last known location: Harrenhall

See the difference?

And I could probably name off at least 5 instances of the book saying that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

I can name off approximately 0 times where the book says "And Varys inexplicably headed towards a tower in the middle of the Dornish mountains with a baby."

So while there is circumstantial evidence that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have married at the Isle of Faces do to proximity, Lyanna's religion and their feelings for one another, I could not make a similar argument for Aegon being at the ToJ because there is absolutely no evidence that could even be considered 'circumstantial'. Trying to explain away the KG's actions by saying "Well, if a king is there, it must have been Aegon!" when there is a much, MUCH liklier answer in Jon is simply ignoring the evidence to present one's own wishes in the matter.

[Kingmonkey]

N/edric says that Wylla nursed Jon and himself. If this is true, and Jon is born around the time of the Sack in 283, then taken to/nursed at Starfall for a time, then it makes sense that there was another child in Starfall between Jon's departure in 284ish? and N/edric's birth in 287 that would have kept the taps flowing, so to speak. Allyria fits into this space [and of course Wylla could have also been farmed out to other unknown Dayne babies or the cadet branch, not disregarding this], dovetailing with my guesstimate of her being born late 284ish and nursed until N/edric's arrival (in my estimation, early 287). Note: The 2 year nursing span fits with the wildling practice but I have no idea if this is common to the rest of Westeros. I would think yes, but this is assumption on my part.

There's 3-4 years between the births of Jon and Nedric. We don't really need to fill that gap -- Wylla might have been nursing her own children around those two occasions. Though there's plenty of time for Wylla to have accompanied Jon back to Winterfell, nursed him there for a while, returned to Starfall, and have a child of her own and be nursing again by the time Nedric is born.

(in AGoT ch.6 we get "When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence." This might refer to Wylla, or might not. )

So, make of it what you will, but I find it soopar intriguing that we have a mysterious Dayne daughter 1) conceived suspiciously close to Ned's visit to Starfall to return Dawn, 2) very close in age to a Targaryen daughter, 3) whose father is now out of the picture (and who knows what about her mother), and 4) who has told her younger cousin that Ned Stark and Ashara were in love. But, this younger cousin doesn't mention Ashara having a stillborn child prior to jumping into the sea of a broken heart, and he believes Ned Stark to have instead fathered bastard Jon on the wet nurse that was in service to the Daynes before he was born....the wet nurse who remained at Starfall. o_O

Are you suggesting that Allyria is the daughter of Ned and Ashara? And that Ashara committed suicide 9 months+ after Ned arrived at Starfell? The timing isn't impossible, but it makes Ashara's suicide more than a little odd.

I'm not sure where you're going with the Dany link.

[BearQueen87]

...10 pages????!

Did I miss anything?

[J. Stargaryen]

...10 pages????!

Did I miss anything?

Um, that depends. :)

[BearQueen87]

Um, that depends. :)

I'll qualify. Did I miss anything that wasn't the KG at the TOJ? Or polygamy? ;)

[J. Stargaryen]

I'll qualify. Did I miss anything that wasn't the KG at the TOJ? Or polygamy? ;)

I don't want to spoil it for you. :P

[The Twinslayer]

There's no evidence at all that points to Aegon having been at the ToJ. This is simply another "I want to buy your rock" argument...ie: saying something happened that has no evidence but can't be 'disproven' because of a gap in the information. The KG were already AT the ToJ before Aegon "supposedly" left KL, so it wasn't as if they were there to protect him. By this logic, I could say that the Cookie Monster was at the ToJ.

My issue with this is that Aegon is very conspicuously absent from Ned's discussion with the Kingsguard. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys, but they never mention Aegon. This suggests two possibilities: either they don't know what happened to Aegon (and therefore believe he either is, or he may be, alive, and they feel no need to go looking for him)); or they know where he is because they have him.

Otherwise, Ned would have asked where they were when Aegon was killed and they would have said that if they were there, Gregor would be dead.

[markg171]

The series of 'clues' that point to Wylla:

1. Ned tells Robert that she is Jon's mother.

2. Edric tells Arya that she is Jon's mother.

3. She was Jon's wetnurse.

Problems:

1. It doesn't explain why Ned never told Jon or anyone else but Robert who his mother was.

2. There is nothing placing Ned and Wylla together at the time of Jon's conception.

The clues for Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother:

1. Ashara and Ned danced together once.

2. Ned put a stop to rumors that Ashara was Jon's mother.

3. Ned went to Starfall to give back Dawn.

4. Jon's wetnurse, Wylla, has served at Starfall.

Problems:

1. STILL doesn't explain why Ned never tells anyone, including Jon, who his mother is.

2. Selmy says that Ashara had a stillborn daughter...not a son.

3. There is no evidence putting Ned and Ashara together at the time of Jon's conception.

4. There is no discernible reason for Ned to take Ashara's child from her, driving her to suicide.

The clues for the fisherman's daughter being Jon's mother:

1. There are rumors that Ned left a fisherman's daughter pregnant at the dawn of the rebellion.

Problems:

1. This would have been before Jon's conception.

2. The showrunners guessed Jon's mother correctly long before ADWD came out, thus nullifying the possibility that this could be the correct answer.

3. Once again it doesn't explain why Ned doesn't tell Jon who his mother is.

The clues for Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents:

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna were together at the time of Jon's conception.

2. Lyanna died at the ToJ in a 'bed of blood', strongly suggesting that she had given birth.

3. Jon has Lyanna's looks.

4. Ned promised Lyanna something before she died. He comes home with a bastard child and raises him with his own trueborn children.

5. Ned never tells anyone who Jon's mother is because it would be life-threatening to Jon and his family if Robert were to find out.

6. Ned tries to convince Robert that the Targaryens are no longer a threat to him.

Problems:

1. Jon has no obvious Targaryen looks...however, this is not unusual as many Targaryens do not have typical Valyrian features.

So, there I've laid out the pros and cons of all of the viable possibilities for Jon's parentage. If anyone is going to say that Jon isn't the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, they need disprove the above.

I like how you put a bunch of your own interpretations in there to support your theory, but none that support the other possibilities. In short, you present your argument as strong, while purposely leaving out things that support the other possibilities.

Case in point: You mention that Jon looks like Lyanna as a point in favour of Lyanna and Rhaegar being his parents, yet fail to mention that Jon is never actually said to look like Lyanna, simply that he has similar features to Arya who Ned says looks like Lyanna. Not only that, but you completely leave out the fact that Jon is actually said to look like a younger version of Ned.

Your attempts at being objective are laughable.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

More like, J. Star thinks you're acting out because people here won't indulge your ridiculous ideas.

Anything's possible, I guess. But it seems I'm not the only one interested in the idea that Aegon was at the tower of joy.

[PrettyPig]

Difference here:

Aegon:

Last known location: KL

Lyanna:

Last known location: Harrenhall

See the difference?

And I could probably name off at least 5 instances of the book saying that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

I can name off approximately 0 times where the book says "And Varys inexplicably headed towards a tower in the middle of the Dornish mountains with a baby."

So while there is circumstantial evidence that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have married at the Isle of Faces do to proximity, Lyanna's religion and their feelings for one another, I could not make a similar argument for Aegon being at the ToJ because there is absolutely no evidence that could even be considered 'circumstantial'. Trying to explain away the KG's actions by saying "Well, if a king is there, it must have been Aegon!" when there is a much, MUCH liklier answer in Jon is simply ignoring the evidence to present one's own wishes in the matter.

No, I don't see it. What I see is yet another instance of taking some information from other character POVs throughout the novels and drawing up theoretical parallels as a way of "supporting" a premise about another character. OMG! Tyrion got married by a drunken septon! That must be what R&L did! OMG! There's a heart tree on the Isle of Faces close to where Septon Meribald makes his rounds! That's TOTALLY where they had an Old Gods ceremony...peformed by a YOUNG SEPTON MERIBALD!!! OMG, Renly wanted Robert to set Cersei aside for Margaery! Rhaegar was so gonna do that with Elia!!

And I can name at least 5 times that Jon is referred to as Ned's bastard. Repeating something a bunch of times doesn't make it necessarily true. Furthermore, after poring through these books, I've come to the conclusion that anything that is put forth in Westeros as the official explanation for some event or anything that is held in common perception is actually the furthest from the truth. Rhaegar and Lyanna are interwoven, sure, but I don't think it's the way people believe.

However, trying to discuss that here is like opening an artery outside the Great Barrier Reef during a Great White migration.

[JonSnow4President]

My issue with this is that Aegon is very conspicuously absent from Ned's discussion with the Kingsguard. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys, but they never mention Aegon. This suggests two possibilities: either they don't know what happened to Aegon (and therefore believe he either is, or he may be, alive, and they feel no need to go looking for him)); or they know where he is because they have him.

Otherwise, Ned would have asked where they were when Aegon was killed and they would have said that if they were there, Gregor would be dead.

They knew about Jaime making chopped king salad. Do you really think the news of Aegon's death doesn't come with that?

[JonSnow4President]

No, I don't see it. What I see is yet another instance of taking some information from other character POVs throughout the novels and drawing up theoretical parallels as a way of "supporting" a premise about another character. OMG! Tyrion got married by a drunken septon! That must be what R&L did! OMG! There's a heart tree on the Isle of Faces close to where Septon Meribald makes his rounds! That's TOTALLY where they had an Old Gods ceremony...peformed by a YOUNG SEPTON MERIBALD!!! OMG, Renly wanted Robert to set Cersei aside for Margaery! Rhaegar was so gonna do that with Elia!!

And I can name at least 5 times that Jon is referred to as Ned's bastard. Repeating something a bunch of times doesn't make it necessarily true. Furthermore, after poring through these books, I've come to the conclusion that anything that is put forth in Westeros as the official explanation for some event or anything that is held in common perception is actually the furthest from the truth. Rhaegar and Lyanna are interwoven, sure, but I don't think it's the way people believe.

However, trying to discuss that here is like opening an artery outside the Great Barrier Reef during a Great White migration.

You really can't see the difference between taking a newborn baby to a location that makes zero sense, in the exact opposite direction he eventually went? That out of all the people in the kingdom, whoever took Aegon to the ToJ managed to find the ToJ, which was an isolated location known by a select few? Then that Ned arranged for Jon Con to raise young Aegon and take him across the narrow sea? All this, despite lack of geographic proximity, without even a easily deducible reason even loosely based on text.

On the flip side, you at least have a basis for believing Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, without needing to go too far from cannon. Geographic location at least makes sense, and the character's motivations (once again, loosely based on canonical evidence) make sense based on their known personalities.

There's a reason I don't advocate they got married at any particular place too strongly, or even attempt to make a strong argument for why he's legitimate, but it is infinitely more reasonable then the first option.

As far as the stated, it's also stated (seemingly more often) that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. While it's not quite this or that, it's hard to take a side if you ignore everything stated in the text as untrue.

[sj4iy]

My issue with this is that Aegon is very conspicuously absent from Ned's discussion with the Kingsguard. They account for Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella and Viserys, but they never mention Aegon. This suggests two possibilities: either they don't know what happened to Aegon (and therefore believe he either is, or he may be, alive, and they feel no need to go looking for him)); or they know where he is because they have him.

Otherwise, Ned would have asked where they were when Aegon was killed and they would have said that if they were there, Gregor would be dead.

Or they don't talk about Aegon because all of them know he's dead and he has absolutely no bearing on their conversation at hand.

[J. Stargaryen]

Anything's possible, I guess. But it seems I'm not the only one interested in the idea that Aegon was at the tower of joy.

Then try having an honest discussion about it, instead of being a smart ass, and/or employing intellectually dishonest rhetoric.

[sj4iy]

No, I don't see it. What I see is yet another instance of taking some information from other character POVs throughout the novels and drawing up theoretical parallels as a way of "supporting" a premise about another character. OMG! Tyrion got married by a drunken septon! That must be what R&L did! OMG! There's a heart tree on the Isle of Faces close to where Septon Meribald makes his rounds! That's TOTALLY where they had an Old Gods ceremony...peformed by a YOUNG SEPTON MERIBALD!!! OMG, Renly wanted Robert to set Cersei aside for Margaery! Rhaegar was so gonna do that with Elia!!

I didn't say that they did. I said there was at least circumstantial evidence if one wanted to make the case for marriage. Like the KG saying "We swore a vow" and the numerous foreshadowing indicating that Jon is trueborn. IE: they were married. And Lyanna's religion and the proximity to Harrenhall at least MAKE IT A POSSIBILITY.

The same CANNOT be said for Aegon, as he was:

1. Nowhere near Dorne.

2. Likely dead.

And I can name at least 5 times that Jon is referred to as Ned's bastard. Repeating something a bunch of times doesn't make it necessarily true. Furthermore, after poring through these books, I've come to the conclusion that anything that is put forth in Westeros as the official explanation for some event or anything that is held in common perception is actually the furthest from the truth. Rhaegar and Lyanna are interwoven, sure, but I don't think it's the way people believe.

Because Jon's real parentage is common knowledge to everyone, isn't it?

Whereas no one knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna absconding together in the middle of the night.

Oh, wait.

However, trying to discuss that here is like opening an artery outside the Great Barrier Reef during a Great White migration.

Upset that people don't go in for crackpot in this thread?

There are plenty of heresy threads around here that will consider 'theories' without any evidence. I'm sorry if the standard in this thread is a bit higher.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Ned knows that the Kingsguard died protecting and defending the king, to justify his thoughts about them.

This statement makes an entirely different assumption about the KG. It's one thing for us as readers to view the KG presence as a clue that a Targaryen child was nearby. It's quite another to claim that Ned himself would have drawn that conclusion, or that such a conclusion is really necessary.

It's a fascinating puzzle, really - because these variables each operate somewhat independently of one another. A Targaryen child may or may not have been in the vicinity. The KG3 may have been following specific orders, or they may have been guarding a king - and not necessarily both. Ned may or may not have made assumptions about child(ren) at the tower on the basis of the KG presence. He may have found one child there, or two - or none at all.

Martin simply hasn't provided enough information for readers to draw confident conclusions on any of these questions.