R+L=J v.117

[UnmaskedLurker]

I disagree as to the last, and if "provoked" will post on it again :devil: but the point I'm making here is that the issue of legitimacy is irrelevant because if Jon is ever to sit on the Iron Throne he's going to have to fight his way on to it, and therefore the argument that the episode was included to prove he is the king seems moot.

No, the evidence is not to prove he will become king or necessarily was the king. It was to show that the KG thought he was king--indicating Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. That might matter to Jon regardless whether he ever becomes king. I don't know why you think people are arguing that Jon actually was the legitimate king in an objective sense or will necessarily become king. The issue of his legitimacy could have significance for the story even if Jon never becomes king.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I have another question regarding the TOJ and which royal was there or not.This is a legit question and I can't honestly remember the series of events.

Edric Storm told Arya that him and Jon were nurse brothers right.So did Ned take Jon ( if he was there) to Starfall stayed long enough whereby that could have been said with such surety by Edric ?

Edric was not born yet--he is younger than Jon. Edric has been told by someone at Starfall that Jon was nursed by (or possibly is the son of) Wylla. Edric knows that he himself was nursed by Wylla. The precise basis for why someone (perhaps Wylla herself) told Edric about Jon is less clear (at least to my recollection).

[Ygrain]

This argument does not jive.I've heard it here many times how much Ned viewed these men.Meaning their honor was widely known. Can't the same be said about Ned? Do you then actually thing the Kings guard would forestall Ned from seeing Lya and her baby because he would hurt them in any way? Ned's honor is so questionable to them that he'd take his nephew away and hand his nephew to Robert .Why?

Do you recall the exchange between Jaime and Ser Balon Swann? Honour demands that he puts his liege and his vow above his family ties. The same thing is pondered by Stannis - that he supported Robert even though honour demanded that he supported Stannis. Honour demanded that Ned put his loyalty to his king above his family ties, as well.

[Black Crow]

No, the evidence is not to prove he will become king or necessarily was the king. It was to show that the KG thought he was king--indicating Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. That might matter to Jon regardless whether he ever becomes king. I don't know why you think people are arguing that Jon actually was the legitimate king in an objective sense or will necessarily become king. The issue of his legitimacy could have significance for the story even if Jon never becomes king.

But yet much of his story arc is about his embracing of his bastardy.

[sj4iy]

This argument does not jive.I've heard it here many times how much Ned viewed these men.Meaning their honor was widely known. Can't the same be said about Ned? Do you then actually thing the Kings guard would forestall Ned from seeing Lya and her baby because he would hurt them in any way? Ned's honor is so questionable to them that he'd take his nephew away and hand his nephew to Robert .Why?

Wait, what? Seriously? Ned's honor wasn't 'widely known' at that time. The KG had no reason to trust him. You think it would be prudent of the KG to give away the fact that they are guarding a helpless newborn and his mortally ill mother in a tower with no other defenses to men who just overthrew the infant's royal family? Hell, no. That would be the height of stupidity. Ned EARNED his wide reputation for honor in part by protesting the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys and returning Dawn to Starfall. Before then he was simply the second son of Lord Stark of Winterfell, who had very little reason to be noticed in the first place. And the KG, no matter HOW honorable a foe may be, are sworn to protect the kings' secrets. Including who he is and where he is hiding.

[wolfmaid7]

Edric was not born yet--he is younger than Jon. Edric has been told by someone at Starfall that Jon was nursed by (or possibly is the son of) Wylla. Edric knows that he himself was nursed by Wylla. The precise basis for why someone (perhaps Wylla herself) told Edric about Jon is less clear (at least to my recollection).

I know he's younger and was part of my angst because Jon would of had to be at Starfall and there for a while. I'll have to revisit his conversation with Arya because I can't remember truly how that went.

[Consigliere]

This argument does not jive.I've heard it here many times how much Ned viewed these men.Meaning their honor was widely known. Can't the same be said about Ned? Do you then actually thing the Kings guard would forestall Ned from seeing Lya and her baby because he would hurt them in any way? Ned's honor is so questionable to them that he'd take his nephew away and hand his nephew to Robert .Why?

It could very well be because of Ned's honour that the KG could not be sure whether or not he would hand Lyanna and Jon over to Robert. This converstaion between Aemon and Jon is telling in this regard:

“Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. “He would do whatever was right,”

An argument can be made that Ned was honour bound to turn Lyanna and Jon over to Robert. Instead he chose the ones he loved over his honour. However the KG could not have known this.

[Black Crow]

Edric was not born yet--he is younger than Jon. Edric has been told by someone at Starfall that Jon was nursed by (or possibly is the son of) Wylla. Edric knows that he himself was nursed by Wylla. The precise basis for why someone (perhaps Wylla herself) told Edric about Jon is less clear (at least to my recollection).

That the two are described as milk brothers doesn't necessarily require that one was hanging off each tit at the same time. All that it would require is for them to be successively nursed, say a year or two apart, but they would still be drinking the same milk.

[Ygrain]

It's pretty clear that you whole heartedly believe in R+L=J and that no proof will ever convince you otherwise

From the guy who believes that Jon is Ned's son because it is said in the books, I take it as a compliment.

BTW, have you ever learned any foreign language? There is this method of guessing the meaning of an unknown word/phrase from context, and it is done exactly the same way as the meaning of "bed of blood" is derived. All it takes is a single occurence where the meaning can be established without any doubt, and we actually have two such occurences.

[The guy from the Vale]

Actually, when Rhaegar left, their king was still Aerys. Then it was Rhaegar, and then Aegon. And I doubt if Rhaenys would prevail over Viserys.

I leave it to you to think if the should protect Rhaella rather than Elia, or else. I thing their duties are pretty well outlined.

Wrong. Rhaegar never was king. Aegon was apparently killed during the Sack, the same day Aerys died. Even if Aegon was smuggled out (doubtful), he apparently never arrived at the ToJ or Ned would not think Aegon dead. So for the KG at the ToJ, at the time Ned arrives, Viserys is king.

And yes, by the time Ned arrives, they seem to have gotten the news. They know about the Battle at the Trident, they know about the Sack of Kings Landing. They must know Rhaegar and Aerys are dead, and most probably Aegon is, too. They even know Viserys, Aegon's heir apparent, is without Kingsguard protection and they still decide that no, Viserys doesn't need protection. To me that can mean only one thing: Rhaegar had another son after Aegon, and they are protecting him, as he is Aegon's heir over Viserys.

[PrettyPig]

I know he's younger and was part of my angst because Jon would of had to be at Starfall and there for a while. I'll have to revisit his conversation with Arya because I can't remember truly how that went.

I will snip from my completely ignored post on page 5:

N/edric says that Wylla nursed Jon and himself. If this is true, and Jon is born around the time of the Sack in 283, then taken to/nursed at Starfall for a time, then it makes sense that there was another child in Starfall between Jon's departure in 284ish? and N/edric's birth in 287 that would have kept the taps flowing, so to speak. Allyria fits into this space [and of course Wylla could have also been farmed out to other unknown Dayne babies or the cadet branch, not disregarding this], dovetailing with my guesstimate of her being born late 284ish and nursed until N/edric's arrival (in my estimation, early 287). Note: The 2 year nursing span fits with the wildling practice but I have no idea if this is common to the rest of Westeros. I would think yes, but this is assumption on my part.

Here are the options:

1) Jon was at Starfall for a really, really long time

2) Wylla was feeding half the kids in surrounding Dorne for the 2-3 year interim between Jon and Ned Dayne

3) There was another kid at Starfall that fit perfectly between Jon and Ned Dayne: Allyria Dayne.

[wolfmaid7]

Wait, what? Seriously? Ned's honor wasn't 'widely known' at that time. The KG had no reason to trust him. You think it would be prudent of the KG to give away the fact that they are guarding a helpless newborn and his mortally ill mother in a tower with no other defenses to men who just overthrew the infant's royal family? Hell, no. That would be the height of stupidity. Ned EARNED his wide reputation for honor in part by protesting the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys and returning Dawn to Starfall. Before then he was simply the second son of Lord Stark of Winterfell, who had very little reason to be noticed in the first place. And the KG, no matter HOW honorable a foe may be, are sworn to protect the kings' secrets. Including who he is and where he is hiding.

Im sorry but if they were keen on protecting the Kings secret they should have chosen a better hiding spot by which they could protect his secrets.The fact that Ned knew where to go, how easy they were accessed and tge fact that others were surely going to be following Ned blows secrecy out the window.

[finger]

Okay. I know we've been through this before... so just to be sure I'm clear: our premise is that "the presence of the KG should be considered evidence "that a legitimate Targaryen king was nearby." And your response is that this premise is false. The presence of the KG does not tell us that a legitimate Targ king was nearby. Is that right?

I could go with that. That seems much more in line with what Martin says about the priority of orders for KG knights.

The entire point of the "Plausible Aegon" hypothesis, after all, is that if we take the presence of the KG as evidence that a Targ king was nearby... then young Aegon is a much better explanation than Jon Snow.

The point is that Aegon wasn't there yet when Ned arrived.

I told there were hints. Quorin party at Sterling Pass. They're fleeing from the wildlings, and one of them is left behind to hinder as much as he can... and die. Your life for his.

The 3 KGs stayed to bother Ned's party. I don't think Ned was able to look for anyone after the fighting. In fact, he stayed, burying the corpses, or finding a wetnurse for Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That the two are described as milk brothers doesn't necessarily require that one was hanging off each tit at the same time. All that it would require is for them to be successively nursed, say a year or two apart, but they would still be drinking the same milk.

Yes. That is what I meant. Jon was long gone (and likely long done nursing) by the time Edric would have been nursed by Wylla.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I know he's younger and was part of my angst because Jon would of had to be at Starfall and there for a while. I'll have to revisit his conversation with Arya because I can't remember truly how that went.

As Black Crow clarifies, Jon and Edric were never at Starfall at the same time. Being milk brother merely means they both got milk from the breast of the same woman--likely many years apart.

[sj4iy]

What gap do you think is being "filled in" by mere speculation?

Well, there's obviously a lot of speculation because we have SO LITTLE information about this subject.

Like how Rhaegar had two children and said that "the dragon must have three heads".

And that Elia was unable to give him a third child because it would have killed her.

And that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna QoLaB in front all of the nobility of Westeros.

And that polygamy had been practiced sometimes amongst the Targaryens.

And that other Targaryens had run off to wed in secret against their parents' wishes.

And that Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together.

And that Rhaegar died with the name "Lyanna" on his lips.

And that Ned found her in the ToJ after fighting and killing three KG.

And that Lyanna made Ned promise something.

And that the fear went out of her eyes when he did so.

And that Lyanna died in a bed of blood.

And that Jon was born sometime around the Sack of KL.

And how Ned refused to tell anyone who Jon's mother was.

And that Ned says that Jon is 'his blood'.

And that Jon looked like Arya who looked like Lyanna.

And that Jon has prophetic dreams.

And that Targaryens are know to have 'dragon dreams'.

And that Dany saw a blue flower growing from a chink of ice.

And the Mormont's raven has called Jon "King" and helped him get elected.

And the Martin had admitted to putting a lot of foreshadowing in the books.

Clearly, there's nothing at all connecting them.

[Ygrain]

Im sorry but if they were keen on protecting the Kings secret they should have chosen a better hiding spot by which they could protect his secrets.The fact that Ned knew where to go, how easy they were accessed and tge fact that others were surely going to be following Ned blows secrecy out the window.

Huh? How many people actually arrived at ToJ prior Ned? Exactly one we know of, Hightower. Why should they have presumed that their location was compromised, and even if they did, did they really have an option to flee?

[finger]

I have another question regarding the TOJ and which royal was there or not.This is a legit question and I can't honestly remember the series of events.

Edric Storm told Arya that him and Jon were nurse brothers right.So did Ned take Jon ( if he was there) to Starfall stayed long enough whereby that could have been said with such surety by Edric ?

This one is easy. Ned had the need of a wetnurse to feed Jon from ToJ to Starfall. I imagine she was Willa.

Many people at Starfall who saw Jon sucking from Willa must have thought they were mother and son. But they should have considered peculiar thet the son went away and the mother stayed.

Otoh, Jon and Edric were milk bothers, indeed; they had the same wetnurse.

[markg171]

I have no idea what you think you are trying to prove or what you think others are trying to prove. Very little of this information has to do with whether the KG at ToJ considered Jon to be king. That is really the only question at issue. Of course no one is sure Jon actually will become king. He might, he might not--the evidence is very unclear. But the evidence that the KG at ToJ thought he was the real king is fairly strong. Your point 1 is relevant, but is the very piece of evidence that is being put forth that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The KG do not go to Viserys, so the logical conclusion is that Jon and not Viserys was the person the KG considered to be king. 2 is irrelevant--Dany was not born yet. 3 is irrelevant--the KG believed Aegon to be dead. 4, well, I have no idea what you mean by 4. So the bottom line is that for the KG, either Viserys was king or Jon was king. They don't go to Viserys, so Jon must have been king in their view--meaning that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. No one is really trying to prove anything else.

No, that is not what the whole thing revolves around. It also revolves around the fact that it is difficult to explain where Jon really comes from as Ned's story does not really hold up under examination. Other evidence is that the KG seem to be guarding a king (don't go to Viserys), so a son of Rhaegar needs to be in ToJ. The theory that it could be Aegon is contradicted by the evidence that Ned believes Aegon to be dead. Also, it is not just a bed of blood, but a bed of blood in which Lyanna died at the age of 15 or 16. What else could cause her to bleed to death? Even Robert assumes Rhaegar and Lyanna were having sex (Robert thinks repeated rape), so sex often leads to pregnancy. They were gone for about a year--long enough to get pregnant and give birth. I am sure I could come up with more evidence that Lyanna gave birth to Jon other than just the reference to "bed or blood" but that is what I quickly came up with off the top of my head.

None of R+L=J adds up under examination either

Ned's story of where Jon comes from doesn't add up? And what story is that? Ned says he fathered him during the war on a woman named Wylla. Robert, a man he's seen exactly once in 15 years, still remembers that he fathered a bastard on a woman named Wylla. Edric Dayne confirms that Ned and Wylla had a bastard named Jon. I don't see anything not adding up here.

The evidence for the Kingsguard guarding a king also doesn't add up. Aerys named Viserys his heir. They say that they are at the TOJ because they swore a vow not to flee, not that they are guarding the king. They are stationed outside the Tower, the same way that GRRM has used every single time to describe guards guarding a prisoner in a tower. Fighting from within walls against an attacking foe is smarter than fighting outside them in the open, yet they fight them out in the open when Jaime notes that Arthur always made sure to fortify his camps no matter what. Why give up that advantage then when Arthur always made sure to have every defensive advantage possible? Hightower tells Jaime that their job is not to judge their kings, thus indicating that he wouldn't object to Rhaegar kidnapping someone and imprisoning them in a tower. Any baby within the tower can't be legit because Lyanna couldn't have legally married Rhaegar. Eddard is there for Lyanna, not to kill the Kingsguard members, yet the Kingsguard attempt to prevent him from getting Lyanna. Lyanna is not anybody who needs to be defended from, certainly not from her brother, and seeing as the Kingsguard act like jailors, Lyanna is therefore their prisoner and their vow is that they swore to guard her.

Anything could have caused Lyanna to be bleeding to death. Evidence and history says she was a prisoner so she could have tried to escape. She could have been injured on the way to the Tower. Blood can come from wounds, not just birth.

[UnmaskedLurker]

But yet much of his story arc is about his embracing of his bastardy.

Absolutely--that is what is so fascinating about him finding out that not only is he not a bastard, but he is the true-born son of a man who was the crown prince and that his parents wanted him very much and were very much in love with each other. After spending his entire life coming to terms with being a bastard (a mistake by a father who broke his vows with an anonymous woman)--that information is a much bigger head trip than just finding out that he is still a bastard, just different parents than he thought. From a story impact point of view, the former has much more potential than the latter.