R+L=J v.117

[Ygrain]

None of R+L=J adds up under examination either

Ned's story of where Jon comes from doesn't add up? And what story is that? Ned says he fathered him during the war on a woman named Wylla. Robert, a man he's seen exactly once in 15 years, still remembers that he fathered a bastard on a woman named Wylla. Edric Dayne confirms that Ned and Wylla had a bastard named Jon. I don't see anything not adding up here.

The evidence for the Kingsguard guarding a king also doesn't add up. Aerys named Viserys his heir. They say that they are at the TOJ because they swore a vow not to flee, not that they are guarding the king. They are stationed outside the Tower, the same way that GRRM has used every single time to describe guards guarding a prisoner in a tower. Fighting from within walls against an attacking foe is smarter than fighting outside them in the open, yet they fight them out in the open when Jaime notes that Arthur always made sure to fortify his camps no matter what. Why give up that advantage then when Arthur always made sure to have every defensive advantage possible? Hightower tells Jaime that their job is not to judge their kings, thus indicating that he wouldn't object to Rhaegar kidnapping someone and imprisoning them in a tower. Any baby within the tower can't be legit because Lyanna couldn't have legally married Rhaegar. Eddard is there for Lyanna, not to kill the Kingsguard members, yet the Kingsguard attempt to prevent him from getting Lyanna. Lyanna is not anybody who needs to be defended from, certainly not from her brother, and seeing as the Kingsguard act like jailors, Lyanna is therefore their prisoner and their vow is that they swore to guard her.

Anything could have caused Lyanna to be bleeding to death. Evidence and history says she was a prisoner so she could have tried to escape. She could have been injured on the way to the Tower. Blood can come from wounds, not just birth.

Ned's story of where Jon comes from doesn't add up? And what story is that? Ned says he fathered him during the war on a woman named Wylla. Robert, a man he's seen exactly once in 15 years, still remembers that he fathered a bastard on a woman named Wylla. Edric Dayne confirms that Ned and Wylla had a bastard named Jon. I don't see anything not adding up here.

Of course it doesn't. If some Dornish wetnurse Wylla is the mother, there is absolutely no reason not to tell Jon, or Cat, or anyone else, for that matter (and we could also argue that there was no reason for Ned to take the child away from his mother instead of providing for them both). Edric Dayne is not a first-hand witness as he wasn't even born at that time.

The evidence for the Kingsguard guarding a king also doesn't add up. Aerys named Viserys his heir.

For which there is not a single clue in all five books, all we have is the word of a maester writing with hindsight.

They say that they are at the TOJ because they swore a vow not to flee, not that they are guarding the king.

This has already been adressed. They wouldn't have fled with Viserys because it would have meant abandoning the king. Plus, either way you twist it, guarding the king is still the utmost priority, regardless of anything else they might have sworn. If they are at ToJ because of any other vow and Viserys is king, they are not keeping the vow to protect him and there is no other KG available to fulfill the duty for them.

They are stationed outside the Tower, the same way that GRRM has used every single time to describe guards guarding a prisoner in a tower. Fighting from within walls against an attacking foe is smarter than fighting outside them in the open, yet they fight them out in the open when Jaime notes that Arthur always made sure to fortify his camps no matter what. Why give up that advantage then when Arthur always made sure to have every defensive advantage possible?

ToJ was an abandoned watchtower. There is no telling if it was still defensible, and if the objective is not to let any enemies escape, then the defenders must engage them all and not give them a chance to slip away and return with reinforcements.

Hightower tells Jaime that their job is not to judge their kings, thus indicating that he wouldn't object to Rhaegar kidnapping someone and imprisoning them in a tower.

The assessment that there was no rape is based on other premises, such as Ned drawing a comparison between Robert and Rhaegar in favour of Rhaegar.

Any baby within the tower can't be legit because Lyanna couldn't have legally married Rhaegar.r.

You mean, like Aegon the Conqueror couldn't have married both his sisters, or Maegor multiple non-Targ wives?

Eddard is there for Lyanna, not to kill the Kingsguard members, yet the Kingsguard attempt to prevent him from getting Lyanna. Lyanna is not anybody who needs to be defended from, certainly not from her brother, and seeing as the Kingsguard act like jailors, Lyanna is therefore their prisoner

Lyanna had just given birth to Rhaegar's son. If this became known, the child would have followed the fate of Aegon and Rhaenys. Even if Lyanna's brother could be persuaded and trusted not to tell, there were six more men who could have talked.

Lyanna is therefore their prisoner and their vow is that they swore to guard her.

The same problem as before - if the vow refers to something else than protecting the king, the KG are fulfilling it at the cost of derelicting the primary duty, hence cannot be considered as examplary KG, yet Ned thinks that Dayne qualifies.

And then we see that honourable Balon Swann will do as he's told because that's what's required of him, even the murder of princes.

And this relates to duty versus family how?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It looks to me like you started with that premise.

Are you quibbling with my use of the we pronoun? As in... Snowfyre started with that premise... but J.Star denies the premise? So the presence of the KG is not evidence that a Targaryen king is nearby?

I'm okay with that, but why didn't you just say so?

[Alia of the knife]

Its a reasonable interpretation, but its not the only valid interpretation and the question then arising is why is it thought to matter so much? If the land was being scoured from the Wall to Dorne and from the Sunset Sea to the Stepstones in search of a lost prince who when found would be acclaimed and led [or dragged protesting] to the empty throne, then it might indeed matter, but as I pointed out some way back:

If Jon is to be promoted as the rightful King of Westeros he needs to get to the back of a very long and very expensive queue:

Aerys pops his clogs in King's Landing, along with various other members of the Royal family, so who's next?

1. First off the blocks is Viserys Targaryen, the King's second son. The first son (ungrateful wretch) has gotten himself killed along with his known children so it seems a straightforward claim, especially as it appears that Aerys may have named him his heir before packing him off to Dragonstone. Except he's also the Beggar King and as his sister sadly observes, no dragon.

2. Then there's the sister, again a good claim albeit she's a woman and arguably ineligable, but she does have dragons so it will be a bold Council to deny her. Trouble is she's in the land of far far away and by all accounts making a complete hash of things.

3. Fear not, up comes number three, Aegon first son of Rhaegar and allegedly not dead after all. Great start, unlike 1 & 2 he's actually made it to Westeros, raised his banners and isn't demonstrably mad. In fact looks pretty good all round. OK too good to be true but we're the readers not the actors and real or not he's a better bet than Cersei Lannister.

4. Yes there is a four, because following all historical precedent if no.3 comes to an untimely end as confidently predicted there's too much at stake not for someone else to turn up proclaiming himself the true Aegon, or for that matter if Aegon could be spirited away from that massacre at King's Landing what of his sister, might she too have gotten away and be available? Never mind Perkin Warbeck, there's scope enough for a whole string of False Dimitri claimants.

5. And so we come to Jon Snow, the bastard boy from up north. Sorry, who? Another bloody son of Rhaegar? How many more are there out there?

So after all that, after all the blood and treasure lost in supporting one claimant after another, why go through it all again for a nobody with ice in his veins?

And like Perkin, Aegon will likely do us all the diservice of getting himself offed, dying without us ever knowing whether he was Rhaegars dragon, or Sweet Serras and Illyrios Blackfyre, by-blow blood.

[markg171]

Robert said, "You (Ned) were never the boy that you were." Robert knew that he was honorable and did not trifle with women, even when not married. That Ned's honor would be known to the three Kingsguard is quite questionable, but if he is honorable he is bound to present Jon and Lyanna to Robert, if he is not so honorable he could eradicate the error in his sister's judgment on the spot. If he decides to take Jon as his and raise him as he did, he is depriving Jon of his inheritance. The Kingsguard are bound to protect and defend the king with their very lives, and if you remove the kingship what is left?

Think it through, like a Kingsguard. You will soon see that they must fight and defeat Ned, there is no other way.

Or, think it through, like a prison guard. They must fight and defeat Ned, there is no other way.

[J. Stargaryen]

This is the most piss poor argument I've seen to date. Ned fought the war for Lyanna. Robert fought the war for Lyanna. They were fighting the Targaryen's because they're the ones who took Lyanna, not because they were against the Targaryen dynasty.

This is just amazing coming from the guy who argued that Ned must be Jon's father because that's what the book says. You lack a tiny bit of self awareness, sir.

[finger]

Ned was leading the army fighting against the Targaryen dynasty. Ned was about as big an enemy as possible--regardless whether he is uncle to the new king. The KG have reason to suspect Ned is loyal to Robert and not Ned's sister or nephew.

No one knows what they suspected.

But there are facts: Ned was Lyanna's brother and a man of honour. Kinslaying is cursed. He did raise Jon as a brother to his own children.

Besides, we think he was Jon's uncle (this is not a fact).

And there are hints. If the KG protected Jon, why dipatch their retinue?

I conclude: the story doesn't go as it is normally interpreted.

[MtnLion]

Or, think it through, like a prison guard. They must fight and defeat Ned, there is no other way.

Then why would Ned think them a paragon of honor?

[The Twinslayer]

BS. They state explicitely that it is not what they would have done because smuggling snotty princes while the king is in danger is not the way of the KG.

If that is what GRRM was thinking when he wrote AGOT, it can't have been all that important to him, since he forgot it by the time he wrote the Princess and the Queen. You know this already, but for the benefit of the newcomers let's recall that virtually the same circumstances came up in TPATQ: KL fell, the king fled with the master of whisperes, two KG, one non-KG bastard knight, and his son and daughter. The master of whisperers ordered the KG to leave with the children, leaving only the non-KG bastard to guard the king.

If the "Team Protect" theory is correct, the KG will disobey the order and at least one will stay with the king. If the "Team Obey" theory is correct, they will follow the order.

Of course, as we know, the KG not only follow the order, but one of them swears a vow to complete this new mission. Far from having to decide to stop obeying an order so they can go to a new king, these KGs both left the king at the same time, depriving him of any KG protection. And that was absolutely fine.

Add that to the SSM saying that the 3KG stayed at the TOJ and fought Ned because they were following orders, plus the confirmation that Viserys came before Rhaegar's kids in the world book, and I don't know what more GRRM could do to confirm that he is on "Team Obey."

[SFDanny]

Yeah, I know, I'm jumping in in the middle. Here is why Aegon was not at the tower: Ned believes him dead. If he was at the tower, then Ned must know that he is, in order to understand how honorable the Kingsguard were being. Even if he is concealed during the fight, Ned must understand to hold his view of Arthur Dayne. Therefore your suggestion that the king is Aegon jr is false. Try again.

If you're going to jump into the middle of this old argument, then let me as well.

All Ned believing Aegon is dead means is that Ned does not know a child he finds at the Tower of Joy is Aegon. It means if Aegon has been hidden there, Ned is unaware of the fact. Nothing more. Your assertion that Ned "must know" is the jump in logic, not that Aegon could have been there. So, how could Aegon be there without Ned knowing? Easy. The "they" who finds Ned grieving over Lyanna's body includes someone who continues to hide the child's identity from Ned. Let us speculate that includes a wet nurse - let us call her Wylla - who in addition to nursing Lyanna's newborn child has a child of her own who is a little older than the newborn. Ned takes the newborn, Wylla, Wylla's child, and rides with Howland Reed to Starfall. There he leaves Ser Arthur Dayne's sword and Wylla with the Daynes and departs with Howland Reed and Lyanna's child to Storm's End and meets up with the troops he left there. Why would he not leave Wylla's claimed child with her? He would. If he does not see through Wylla's story.

Now the cry around this idea is always hilarious. NO, Ned must know! He could not fail to recognize a Targaryen child. To which I always try to point out that we have numerous examples in the books in which Targaryen children or at least Targaryen looking children are hidden through shaving their hair, dyeing their hair, etc. Ned's belief Aegon is dead, is not proof Aegon is dead, nor is it proof the child wasn't at the Tower of Joy. A claim by Wylla to have an older child than Jon would fit her station. Wet nurses are wet nurses because they have had a child and continue to have milk that can be used by others. That she would have her child with her is no stretch. That Ned would believe such a story is fitting with Ned's character.

Let me close with the disclaimer. I think Aegon is dead. Either killed during the sack of King's Landing or after. Young Griff's story smacks too much of a pretender's story. Much like the pretenders who claimed to be one of the English princes who died in the Tower. Not that I don't believe Young Griff believes his story. He has been raised to believe it. Raised by a group of men who care nothing about whether or not he is the real Aegon or not. What I'm certain of is that Martin will give us more of Young Griff's back story, and some of it might be true. It would not surprise me in the least if this includes a claim to to have been secreted out of King's Landing to the Tower of Joy. The story will be possible. Martin is not done toying with us, his readers, before he reveals who Jon really is, or who Young Griff really is. So, when we read the tale of the Fisherman's daughter, or Young Griff's story, or Meera Reed's recounting of the tourney at Harrenhal, we are only still seeing bits and pieces of the tapestry that makes up the story. We have a long way to go.

And lastly, let me say, that all the many pages of arguments written by me and others about the conduct of the Kingsguard trio in staying at the tower instead of going to Viserys at Dragonstone as evidence that the true Targaryen heir was there with them works as well if that Targaryen heir is Aegon as if that heir is Jon. It is silly to ignore that possibility. Especially as it is obvious that Martin is going to develop the Young Griff as Aegon storyline further in upcoming books. It may be a red herring, or it maybe the truth, but it is there.

[Ygrain]

I'd rather say it was very easy to find them, if the only 2 people who bothered looking for them found them. 2/2 means 100% success rate. Not only that, but who else would look for them? The only other person would be Robert and he was stuck in King's Landing trying to consolidate his rule. So no one else found them because no one else looked for them. Only Robert and Ned gave a shit about Lyanna and only Ned went after her and he found her rather easily and quick.

...or rather, there was an inside source that tipped Ned off where to go.

This is the most piss poor argument I've seen to date. Ned fought the war for Lyanna. Robert fought the war for Lyanna. They were fighting the Targaryen's because they're the ones who took Lyanna, not because they were against the Targaryen dynasty.

The fact that Aerys wanted the heads of Ned and Robert apparently had nothing to do with the rebellion then? Lyanna goes missing, yet no fighting occurs, Rickard and Brandon are killed, still no fighting, up to the point when Aerys orders Jon Arryn to deliver him the said head and Arryn rebels.

[markg171]

This is just amazing coming from the guy who argued that Ned must Jon's father because that's what the book says. You lack a tiny bit of self awareness, sir.

Believing what the story says, as that's what's actually written down, and then further supporting that with hints from the text, makes infinitely more sense than believing what you think, based off solely hints in the text.

The story says that Jon is Ned's. Hints found within the story support this.

On the other hand, only hints in the text say that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's.

Which sounds more convincing?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

The foundation premise is that the Kingsguard are protecting royalty. Your premise was that it was Aegon, layered premises, and your progression has become fairly obvious. It was logical that you would interpret the line in the most beneficial to your interests light as possible. So, yes, I knew that you would misinterpret it if I left it as "your premise", and clarified it with "Aegon at the tower". Aegon is dead, as far as Ned knows, and likely dead for the remainder of the books. :P

Well for the sake of my hypothetical, I'd like to identify my own premise and assumptions. And the premise for this hypothetical is:

• the presence of the KG is a clue that a legitimate Targaryen king was nearby

All other assumptions being open for debate, this premise should lead us to consider the possibility that young Aegon was in the vicinity of the tower of joy.

The point is that Aegon wasn't there yet when Ned arrived.

I told there were hints. Quorin party at Sterling Pass. They're fleeing from the wildlings, and one of them is left behind to hinder as much as he can... and die. Your life for his.

The 3 KGs stayed to bother Ned's party. I don't think Ned was able to look for anyone after the fighting. In fact, he stayed, burying the corpses, or finding a wetnurse for Jon.

Agreed. I think this scenario deserves some consideration.

[MtnLion]

If you're going to jump into the middle of this old argument, then let me as well.

All Ned believing Aegon is dead means is that Ned does not know a child he finds at the Tower of Joy is Aegon. It means if Aegon has been hidden there, Ned is unaware of the fact. Nothing more. Your assertion that Ned "must know" is the jump in logic, not that Aegon could have been there. So, how could Aegon be there without Ned knowing? Easy. The "they" who finds Ned grieving over Lyanna's body includes someone who continues to hide the child's identity from Ned.

Ned cites Arthur as being the best of the shining example to the rest of the world that the Kingsguard are. There must be logic to his thoughts, meaning you cannot have the Kingsguard protecting and defending the king with their lives, without Ned knowing who the king is that they are protecting and defending.

[sj4iy]

Let's clear up this misconception:

Ned was ALWAYS an honorable man, per Robert's own description of him.

Ned didn't earn his REPUTATION for honor until:

1. He became Lord of Winterfell and fought in Robert's Rebellion.

2. He protested the deaths of the Targaryen children.

3. He returned Dawn to Starfall.

4. He brought his 'bastard' home and raised him as his son.

It's sort of silly to say that a man can't be honorable unless the entire world knows about it when the man was only a second son of a Lord and barely noticed until his family was killed.

[Ygrain]

Believing what the story says, as that's what's actually written down, and then further supporting that with hints from the text, makes infinitely more sense than believing what you think, based off solely hints in the text.

The story says that Jon is Ned's. Hints found within the story support this.

On the other hand, only hints in the text say that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's.

Which sounds more convincing?

The word hint doesn't mean what you think it does. It is never hinted that Jon is Ned's son, it is general belief based on the words and actions of a single person - Ned, who controls the flow of information.

[MtnLion]

Believing what the story says, as that's what's actually written down, and then further supporting that with hints from the text, makes infinitely more sense than believing what you think, based off solely hints in the text.

The story says that Jon is Ned's. Hints found within the story support this.

On the other hand, only hints in the text say that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's.

Which sounds more convincing?

Just for you:

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ned and his friends arrive at the tower, as they had in life. Again, this dream is based upon real events. This actually occurred, and the dialog is likely paraphrased in Ned's memory. He vividly remembers the three Kingsguard, though. The conversation must have a deep meaning for Ned.

The only vow that we can be sure that Ned knows is the vow that Kingsguard take before receiving their white cloak. Jaime and others tell us that it is to protect and defend the king, dying for him, if need be. There are also some ancillary promises, but the first priority is given as protection and defense of the crown, all other promises descend from that.

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned knew about Prince Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry dying at the Trident. He knew about Ser Barristan Selmy slaying twelve of his and Robert’s friends before being wounded so severely that he may have died without Robert sending his own maester to tend to Selmy’s wounds. He knew that Ser Jaime Lannister had been in the Red Keep during the battle. He expected to see these three at the Trident, too.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

From the app we know that Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent are with Prince Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by any of these three. Evidently they are aware of the battle, and the outcome.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered an usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Ser Oswell Whent. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle at the Trident if these three had been present at the battle. They know that Robert has been crowned and taken the throne as an usurper. This also tells us that they know of an heir that is still living that has a better claim than Robert.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and King Aerys is dead by Jaime’s hand. Ned knows that the primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king. He wonders why it is that these three Kingsguard were not with King Aerys when King’s Landing fell.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Ser Gerold Hightower condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king if they had been present. Ser Gerold is expressing his support for King Aerys. He also relays that when Jaime slew Aerys that none of the three had been in a position to react, they were too far away.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for these Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Ser Arthur Dayne speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender. Of note, when Ned approaches the tower Ser Oswell Whent is on his knee. That fact and this line can amount to a subtle clue that the Kingsguard have already bent their knees at the tower, before Ned arrives.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

Ned has offered the Kingsguard the option of surrendering to him, which they rejected. This line is disjointed in the timeline because Ned is changing his tactic. He holds the Kingsguard, especially these three in high regard, even years later. He called them a shining example to the rest of the world. In an attempt to find some talking point that would lead to a peaceful solution, Ned tells them that their queen and prince have fled to Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. This is an opening for the Kingsguard to discuss a tactical withdrawal. It is within Ned’s capabilities, as second in command, to provide safe passage. It would be in his, his friend’s and the Kingsguard’s best interests to allow them to go to Dragontsone to carry out their duties there.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem Darry is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard. They are admitting that they know that "Prince" Viserys is without a Kingsguard. They have ignored the insult of labeling Viserys as a prince, when he should be considered the king.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would shortly be under siege. Jaime was the only Kingsguard in King's Landing so Ser Willem Darry was drafted to protect the royal family members, while Jaime remained with King Aerys, Elia, and her children.

The Lord Commander recognizes that Ser Willem Darry is not Kingsguard, thus the queen and prince Viserys are not currently under Kingsguard protection. Taken together with Ned’s statement, it is easy to see that Ser Gerold Hightower sees leaving King Aerys' side at King’s Landing as fleeing from his duty, even if it was to protect Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys.

If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. Without a Kingsguard to protect them Darry, Viserys and Daenerys are nearly captured and turned over to Robert. They manage to escape just before Dragonstone surrenders.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would have chosen to stay in King's Landing over fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys. The primary duty of the Kingsguard is to protect and defend the king, they would choose to stay with King Aerys (then) as Rhaella and Viserys flee King's Landing. It appears that these three Kingsguard have decided that they have an obligation, by their vow, to stay to protect and defend someone at the tower (now).

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

The Lord Commander is citing the Kingsguard’s vow as the reason that they must stay. He has decided that all three would remain, and we must presume that the reason is to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold’s decision to keep Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king (the primary purpose of the Kingsguard) if the king is present at the tower.
• Ned knows that these men were honoring their Kingsguard vow. There is no other vow that Ned is ever aware of. He thinks of these three as the epitome of honor and skill. A shining example for the world.

We have Ned's interpretation of the Kingsguard's vow: His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." Reading these three statements, with Ned's understanding we have: The Kingsguard does not flee (from its duty to protect King Aerys) then or (from its duty to protect Jon) now, because (explained) we swore a vow to protect our king's life with our own; puts things in a very clear light.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

GRRM has confirmed that with equal equipment Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Arthur Dayne are a close match, with Dawn in hand Ser Arthur is superior. Ser Barristan single-handedly rescued King Aerys from captivity at Duskendale. Ser Jaime Lannister expresses his awe at the defeat of the Kingswood Brotherhood and the Smiling Knight, who was slain by Ser Arthur. In the screenplay Jaime slays a dozen men before being subdued at the battle of the Whispering Woods. Kingsguard practice daily among themselves.

One of the seven is a crannogman, not known for fighting skill. Another is Ethan Glover, recently released from the Black Cells, and likely weak as well as just being Brandon's squire. It seems that even facing the odds that they do, the Kingsguard should prevail. Something odd happened, and I really look forward to GRRM telling us about it.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The most important (first) battle of the Jon Targaryen dynasty. The mindset of the Kingsguard is that they will win the battle, and keep the secret at the tower safe until they can move to safety. There is nothing here that would indicate any fatalism on the part of Arthur. It suggests that Arthur expects to win, though we know with hindsight that they did not, and that at least Ned and Howland are aware of the secret.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. These three Kingsguard are undoubtedly living up to their "vow to guard the king", in Hightower's own words, to gain Ned's greatest respect. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honor’s sake.

We also have the text of the white book about Ser Gerold Hightower from the screenplay. Dispatched by King Areys to locate the crown Prince Rhaegar Targaryen in the wake of Robert Baratheon's rebellion. Died in the Red Mountains of Dorne alongside his sworn brothers, Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. After refusing to bow to the new King, Robert Baratheon, all three were defeated by a small force led by Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

[J. Stargaryen]

Are you quibbling with my use of the we pronoun? As in... Snowfyre started with that premise... but J.Star denies the premise? So the presence of the KG is not evidence that a Targaryen king is nearby?

I'm okay with that, but why didn't you just say so?

More like, J. Star thinks you're acting out because people here won't indulge your ridiculous ideas.

[Black Crow]

Just for you:

Ned's recurring dream, so don't presume to argue against it because it is a fever dream. It is recurring, and it holds deep meaning for Ned. It makes sense to Ned. It is a source of grief for Ned. He killed three of the finest knights he had ever known, one of them Ned says was the best of all, Ser Arthur Dayne...

And just for the sake of balance:

This is a fairly lengthy essay, so before we start let me say that on the basis of the available evidence I see no good reason at all to doubt that R+L=J. That’s not what’s at issue here.

I do, however, think that the tower of joy business may be misinterpreted, or rather that there is more than one viable interpretation of what was going on.

In AGoT chapter 39, Ned has his infamous dream about the fight there as quoted many a time. He's woken from it by Vayon Poole and becomes involved in various bits of business, and on learning that Alyn, the new captain of his guard, has given the body of Jory Cassel into the keeping of the silent sisters to be taken home to Winterfell to lie beside his grandfather, he reflects:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

This, incidentally, is the only use of the term tower of joy [no initial capitals] anywhere in the books, and at this point we need to qualify the dream and its aftermath with this comment by GRRM:

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

So there’s something wrong with the dream passage, but what? To a large extent the encounter itself is confirmed by the passage about Ned’s thoughts on waking. He’s not dreaming, feverishly or otherwise, when he thinks of Martyn Cassel and the aftermath of the fight, so it obviously happened and it ended with all of them dead except Messrs Stark and Reed. Nor do I think there’s a problem with the exchange between Ned and the Kingsguard that preceded the fight. It’s too clear, too precise, not to be a memory of an actual conversation, or at least an accurate memory of the gist of what was said. Nor can Ned seeing his dead friends as wraiths be regarded as significant enough to justify GRRM’s warning. That then leaves Lyanna.

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do in years after, with lots of precedent, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

All very well says you, but what about the Kingsguard and why the tower?

Again it’s worth turning back to GRRM, specifically answering that question:

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

Again hold this for a moment, because there’s a clear implication here that the reason they were so far from home in the first place is that they were obeying an order given by Prince Rhaegar. Exactly what that order was we don’t know but it is apparent from the exchange with Ned it was an order they didn’t like. It’s also important at this point to consider the timing of that order.

Rhaegar has been absent for months, but at some point Hightower catches up with him bearing Aerys’ summons to return. Rhaegar then does so, not improbably leading those 10,000 Dornishmen, later commanded at the Trident by Lewyn Martell. However before returning he in turn orders Hightower, Dayne and Whent to remain behind. I’ll discuss a possible reason for this shortly, but at this particular moment when Rhaegar returns to Kings Landing, Aerys is the King, Rhaegar is the Crown Prince, and Rhaegar’s own son and heir, Aegon is still living. Jon is still just a bump, so with war raging up north, leaving three out of the seven members of the guard to protect an unborn child who at best will be third in line after Aerys seems a touch odd.

So let’s look at what happens:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell

The use of the term Usurper is interesting. Robert is no longer a rebel, he has usurped the throne, they acknowledge that he is now the King, they just refuse to recognise him.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Here Aerys is their king and still would be if they had anything to do with it.

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Now again this one is consistent with the bit about the usurper. Tyrell, Redwyne and the others did bend the knee, because their king and his heirs and successors were gone and there was no point in fighting on in the name of that boy fled to Dragonstone. On the other hand Messrs Hightower, Dayne and Whent decline to do so because their pride and their honour do not allow it. That's straightforward, but if the infant Jon Snow was their king, whom they were protecting, there would be no question of them bending the knee to anybody but him in the first place

If we separate Lyanna from the tower, there is nothing in the exchange with the Kingsguard to suggest that they are guarding anybody; whether Lyanna Stark, Jon Snow or even, the gods help us, Aegon Targaryen.

Conversely if we read everything as an encounter on the road - the only road - between the three knights heading north from Starfall and Ned Stark heading south to Starfall, the language makes sense, Ned's recollection of burying them [when he's awake] makes sense, his journey to Starfall afterwards makes sense, his recollection of the dying Lya, not at a lonely watchtower but in Starfall makes sense, and so too his learning there that Rhaegar called the place where they all died the tower of joy.

So why are they at the tower?

The obvious answer is that it’s a landmark and human nature being what it is their eyes will be drawn to it – as will Ned’s.

As to why they are going to fight, whatever the reason for his absence, Rhaegar was gone from Kings Landing for some time. Given the way things went when he re-appeared I think it’s reasonable that he came north with those 10,000 Dornishmen and that learning of them Aerys despatched Martell to command them. Whether Martell and Rhaegar met on the road, or passed each other en route probably doesn't much matter, but what does is that remark about Rhaegar recognising "in the end" that Aerys was mad.

There has been a lot of serious discussion about Rhaegar’s possible involvement in a coup to overthrow Aerys and the Harrenhal tourney being a cover for a gathering of conspirators or would-be conspirators. However the three guards in the Pass, and certainly not Hightower, were not party to the possible coup. Their loyalty to Aerys is unambiguously expressed. Whether Rhaegar ordered them to remain behind for that very reason, perhaps only using Lyanna and her bump as a pretext, we don't know but it’s a very strong possibility given that the exchange with Ned affirms their loyalty to Aerys but mentions no other king.

Therefore if we look at the exchange between Ned and the three knights without preconceptions it all makes sense. In the first place the knights are not defending or protecting anything, the three of them have lined up to fight.

It is more like the OK corral than the defence of Kings Landing.

We're actually given some very strong clues as to this. They speak of their king, Aerys, who they failed by being far away. They refer to Bob as the Usurper, because he has usurped the throne. He is the King now. Then both Viserys and Danaerys refer to Ned as the usurper's dog. He is recognised as Bob's right-hand man and just as responsible for everything that has happened.

The knights also speak of Jaime Lanister with some understandable venom and how he should burn in seven hells

And then there's the final exchange: "And now it begins..." to which Ned replies no, "Now it ends..."

That bit tends to get passed over in discussion but it’s of a piece with the rest. The three knights have failed in their duty and their king is dead. They are now Ronin and all that remains is their honour. That not only means that they will not kneel, but they will die avenging him. This is the vow they have sworn. "It begins" with killing the Usurper's Dog and if they're not stopped the forsworn Jaime Lanister and the Usurper himself are next on the list. But to Ned "Now it ends", because the war is over and too many have already died. And so they fight, and so the three Ronin die.

[markg171]

Then why would Ned think them a paragon of honor?

If their job is to obey, and they follow that order to their deaths, why wouldn't he think them honourable? We already know that Hightower stood by and let Ned's father burn to death and his brother strangle himself, yet Ned doesn't think anything less of him for that, why would them guarding his sister so their prince could rape her change anything?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

If you're going to jump into the middle of this old argument, then let me as well.

All Ned believing Aegon is dead means is that Ned does not know a child he finds at the Tower of Joy is Aegon. It means if Aegon has been hidden there, Ned is unaware of the fact. Nothing more. Your assertion that Ned "must know" is the jump in logic, not that Aegon could have been there. So, how could Aegon be there without Ned knowing? Easy. The "they" who finds Ned grieving over Lyanna's body includes someone who continues to hide the child's identity from Ned. Let us speculate that includes a wet nurse - let us call her Wylla - who in addition to nursing Lyanna's newborn child has a child of her own who is a little older than the newborn. Ned takes the newborn, Wylla, Wylla's child, and rides with Howland Reed to Starfall. There he leaves Ser Arthur Dayne's sword and Wylla with the Daynes and departs with Howland Reed and Lyanna's child to Storm's End and meets up with the troops he left there. Why would he not leave Wylla's claimed child with her? He would. If he does not see through Wylla's story.

Now the cry around this idea is always hilarious. NO, Ned must know! He could not fail to recognize a Targaryen child. To which I always try to point out that we have numerous examples in the books in which Targaryen children or at least Targaryen looking children are hidden through shaving their hair, dyeing their hair, etc. Ned's belief Aegon is dead, is not proof Aegon is dead, nor is it proof the child wasn't at the Tower of Joy. A claim by Wylla to have an older child than Jon would fit her station. Wet nurses are wet nurses because they have had a child and continue to have milk that can be used by others. That she would have her child with her is no stretch. That Ned would believe such a story is fitting with Ned's character.

Let me close with the disclaimer. I think Aegon is dead. Either killed during the sack of King's Landing or after. Young Griff's story smacks too much of a pretender's story. Much like the pretenders who claimed to be one of the English princes who died in the Tower. Not that I don't believe Young Griff believes his story. He has been raised to believe it. Raised by a group of men who care nothing about whether or not he is the real Aegon or not. What I'm certain of is that Martin will give us more of Young Griff's back story, and some of it might be true. It would not surprise me in the least if this includes a claim to to have been secreted out of King's Landing to the Tower of Joy. The story will be possible. Martin is not done toying with us, his readers, before he reveals who Jon really is, or who Young Griff really is. So, when we read the tale of the Fisherman's daughter, or Young Griff's story, or Meera Reed's recounting of the tourney at Harrenhal, we are only still seeing bits and pieces of the tapestry that makes up the story. We have a long way to go.

And lastly, let me say, that all the many pages of arguments written by me and others about the conduct of the Kingsguard trio in staying at the tower instead of going to Viserys at Dragonstone as evidence that the true Targaryen heir was there with them works as well if that Targaryen heir is Aegon as if that heir is Jon. It is silly to ignore that possibility. Especially as it is obvious that Martin is going to develop the Young Griff as Aegon storyline further in upcoming books. It may be a red herring, or it maybe the truth, but it is there.

Very well said. Agree with almost every word. :cheers: