Michael Brown Shooting: A Bitterly Divided Nation

[Larry of the Lawn]

I doubt looking at a cop wrong would be considered "objectively reasonable". Multiple punches to the face while trying to get his gun seems to meet that standard, IMO.

Right. I'm sure we could come up with 50 different ideas of what we think it means. And im especially interested in whether or not the cop needs to have anything to corroborate his own testimony. I'm asking more in a general sense than in this particular shooting.

[YoungGriff89]

Princethatwaspromised, you've heard the audio of Darren Wilson and his dispatch was it just Darren Wilson asking if the officers on the scene needed any assistance with the robbery or did it also include Darren Wilson calling for a description of the suspect/ calling for backup? Can't find the recording anywhere.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

Princethatwaspromised, you've heard the audio of Darren Wilson and his dispatch was it just Darren Wilson asking if the officers on the scene needed any assistance with the robbery or did it also include Darren Wilson calling for a description of the suspect/ calling for backup? Can't find the recording anywhere.

The audio I heard only has Wilson asking if the officers need assistance with the robbery investigation. I searched for the audio as well and couldn't find it either.

[The Fallen]

Whether or not it's true should be determined by the outcome of sobriety tests. I'm sorry but the huge public risk of drunk-driving outweigh your irrational hatred of cops here.

I only hate bad and incompetent cops. They're a real menace to society.

And I guess you have no problem with racial profiling stop-and-frisk.

theprince,

It's a police officer's job to arrest someone, true. But when they can't do what do they do? As happened with Garner, they wait for back-up to arrive and then attempt to detain the individual again. It doesn't go from "he resisted" to "now I have to shoot him". In the case of a suspect who's fleeing you pursue, you don't pursue and shoot. According to you, and Wilson, Brown runs off, but when he's shot at he turns around. Well, if Wilson hadn't shot at him Brown would not have turned and charged him. (Not that I believe that version.)

The point is that Wilson is incompetent and we shouldn't tolerate this kind of attitude from our cops. Cops in places like the U.K. aren't armed and they manage to pursue and apprehend people just fine. Why can't our cops do the same? It probably has to do with a difference in attitude.

[The Notorious]

I guess you have no problem with drunk driving then, the fallen.

Precious freedom.

[The Fallen]

I guess you have no problem with drunk driving then, the fallen.

Precious freedom.

First I hate cops. Now I tolerate drunk driving? What's next? Torturing animals?

I actually think that the penalties for drunk drivers, especially those who kill others while driving under the influence, are too weak. Am I pro-crime because I don't support racial profiling?

My issue has more to do with the erosion of our rights and the abuse of well intentioned practices.

I'm just thinking out loud, but maybe a better system would be to have the owners of drinking establishments make a call?

Maybe have patrons deposit an amount of money that can be used towards a taxi ride home or returned if the person can drive legally after blowing into a breathalyzer?

Maybe have the city make taxis available to those too impaired to drive? Or maybe a bus that can drop multiple people off near their homes?

Fuck it, just prohibit alcohol altogether. If at first you don't succeed ...

Edited:grammar.

[Swordfish]

Wilson's duty was to apprehend him safely or, if that was unlikely, to wait for backup so he could. Regardless of what happened in the minutes before, Brown was unarmed and the idea is for police to to protect and serve everyone, including Brown.

We know now that he was unarmed. but we have the benefit of hindsight.

Netherlands: Increased use of firearms by Dutch police

The use of police firearms in Denmark

Interesting. I'll take a look. Thanks for the links!

[Summah]

We know now that he was unarmed. but we have the benefit of hindsight.

!

I've not seen anything that suggests Wilson actually though Brown might have a weapon.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

I only hate bad and incompetent cops. They're a real menace to society.

And I guess you have no problem with racial profiling stop-and-frisk.

theprince,

It's a police officer's job to arrest someone, true. But when they can't do what do they do? As happened with Garner, they wait for back-up to arrive and then attempt to detain the individual again. It doesn't go from "he resisted" to "now I have to shoot him". In the case of a suspect who's fleeing you pursue, you don't pursue and shoot. According to you, and Wilson, Brown runs off, but when he's shot at he turns around. Well, if Wilson hadn't shot at him Brown would not have turned and charged him. (Not that I believe that version.)

The point is that Wilson is incompetent and we shouldn't tolerate this kind of attitude from our cops. Cops in places like the U.K. aren't armed and they manage to pursue and apprehend people just fine. Why can't our cops do the same? It probably has to do with a difference in attitude.

Wilson never said he shot at Brown while he was fleeing. Neither did I. In fact, Wilson had been adamant that didn't happen.

How is Wilson incompetent again? You never really explained how you came to that conclusion.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

I've not seen anything that suggests Wilson actually though Brown might have a weapon.

He claims in his testimony that Wilson reached at his waist while moving toward him. I don't think he was trying to say he believed Brown had a weapon though. Iirc, I think he mentioned it in reference to Brown being struck by one of the shots.

[Commodore]

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/542149416216698880

CBS News @CBSNews

DOD autopsy on Michael Brown performed at DOJ request confirms gunpowder traces on right hand indicating struggle.

[TrueMetis]

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/542149416216698880

CBS News @CBSNews

DOD autopsy on Michael Brown performed at DOJ request confirms gunpowder traces on right hand indicating struggle.

And? We already knew this didn't we?

[Summah]

And as many have pointed out a struggle in the car doesn't justify shooting him 150ft away from said car. That there was a struggle in the car has never been disputed, it's the nature of the struggle that's unknown (with the witnesses disagreeing), and the gunpowder on his hands, which is not news, that's been known for quite a while now, does not change that we do not know what happened in that car and both Wilson and Johnson may both have reason to lie depending on what actually happened. I know that I personally, like others, find Wilson's account to be unbelievable, and it made his racism clear whether or not he is consciously aware of it.

[Suttree]

Multiple punches to the face while trying to get his gun seems to meet that standard, IMO.

So just to be clear, these are your FACTS! as relates to the situation?

[Tywin Manderly]

Interesting. I'll take a look. Thanks for the links!

You're welcome. :)

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

And as many have pointed out a struggle in the car doesn't justify shooting him 150ft away from said car. That there was a struggle in the car has never been disputed, it's the nature of the struggle that's unknown (with the witnesses disagreeing), and the gunpowder on his hands, which is not news, that's been known for quite a while now, does not change that we do not know what happened in that car and both Wilson and Johnson may both have reason to lie depending on what actually happened. I know that I personally, like others, find Wilson's account to be unbelievable, and it made his racism clear whether or not he is consciously aware of it.

Here we go with the unsupported claims of racism....again. If anything has been proven, it's that race was not a factor in this case. You can't admit that Brown made a laundry list of poor choices even with evidence to prove it, but we're to take your word that Wilson's racist? With not even one piece of evidence to substantiate your claim? Get real

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

So just to be clear, these are your FACTS! as relates to the situation?

These are not the facts you're looking for....

[Stubby]

Thankfully, the law disagrees with you. Per se rules are, generally, stupid and inflexible. A per se rule that you can NEVER use lethal force to defend yourself from an "unarmed" person, even if they're beating your head into the sidewalk and pose a lethal threat to you, is morally indefensible and ethically bankrupt.

All our (in the US) law requires is that you have an objectively reasonable belief that the use of lethal force is required to protect yourself from death or serious bodily injury. Any per se rule that would require that you die before breaking the law while being pummeled to death by an "unarmed" person is morally vile and a serious step down from the rule we do have.

Way to misrepresent me there.

I said they had no right to use deadly force. I did not say they had no right to use force. Of course the police officer can defend himself. He can use his training, his pepper spray, his taser or even a baton, but the first resort should not be to shoot. The rest of your hyperbole is irrelevant.

[mormont]

The points being Brown was moving towards Wilson and was told to stop. Wilson only fired because Brown would not stop advancing.

The thing about this is, Brown was (as I understand it) a maximum of 150 ft away and Wilson claims he was, not just 'advancing' but 'charging'. I don't know where Brown wound up, but the passage of time here before Brown is downed can only be measured in seconds. On the one hand, that supports the idea that Wilson was in fear for his life. On the other... it rather undermines Wilson's claims to have warned Brown twice and that there were two pauses in the shooting. That could still have happened, I suppose, but realistically those 'breaks' can have been only a second or so. Long enough for Brown to process what Wilson was yelling and react? With the noise of the gunshots and the pain of the gunshot wounds and everything else? I doubt it.

So, I'm not convinced by the idea that Brown is to blame for his own death because he took some conscious decision to continue to advance despite warnings. The situation just seems too chaotic for this to be a reasonable interpretation.

Wilson persues Brown because that's his job. Forget everything before the incident at the SUV. When you assault a officer and try to take his weapon, you have committed a crime and are now going to be arrested.

Sure. But you're also dangerous, right? I mean, Wilson's story is that he was in fear for his life, implying that he was not sure of being able to handle Brown on his own, even armed. So surely the best thing for Wilson to have done in that situation was keep Brown in sight and wait for backup. Why take on a suspect that you're convinced is a threat to your life, alone and on foot? That doesn't make sense.

Again, I'm not suggesting Wilson is lying here. I'm suggesting he was not thinking as rationally as his later account suggests. I think, as I've said before, he panicked and starting blazing away when he should have kept his head.

Here we go with the unsupported claims of racism....again. If anything has been proven, it's that race was not a factor in this case.

Nothing that's been said so far proves that race was not a factor, no.

As I've said before, it's incredibly simplistic and intellectually bankrupt to say that race can only be a factor if there is unambiguous proof that Wilson was a racist. What is clear, and has been proven by Wilson's own testimony, is that he viewed Brown in a certain way that strongly suggests his assessment of the threat was coloured by racial prejudices. What's absolutely clear, even to an outsider, is that the police in the US in general do not react to or treat black kids and white kids the same way. Race is a factor. No question.

[YoungGriff89]

My own personal opinion is that Wilson probably had no backup coming and that influenced his decision to chase Brown. I mean if I had just gotten my face pummeled by someone who made me feel like a five year old last thing I would do is chase them without backup because I know the outcome if catch them is deadly force. I think the part in Wilson's story where he pulled forward and asked for backup then drove back to Brown and Johnson is a detail thrown in to further include the alleged robbery in his decision making.

I'm not saying Dorian Johnson's story where Wilson just told Brown to come to him and then grabbed him is ironclad either.