How did Gardeners go extinct?

[Jaak]

Well, how come they did?

Durrandons make sense. The World of Ice and Fire clearly states that Argilac the Arrogant had no heir save his daughter Argella.

Hoares also. Harren the Black had at least 4 sons of whom at least 2 adults, because sons, plural therefore at least two, were burnt in longships on Eye of Gods, and surviving sons, therefore again at least two, died in Kingspyre. But Harren and his family were burnt in Harrenhal. Any daughters (who were not adult and living elsewhere with husbands) and any children would have burnt with castle, too.

But Gardeners? Mern had 4 sons, eldest of them being Edmund, and the others were all of age to fight and burn at Field of Fire. And 2 grandsons - both old enough to be on the field as squires.

It is already a coincidence that these 4 adult sons did not, alongside 2 grandsons old enough to be squires, have any younger grandsons (who would have been left home). But then we are told that Mern also had brothers (plural), cousins (plural) and other kin... including one nephew who survived his burns for 3 days and was a Gardener.

How come that between Mern´s 4 sons, plural brothers and plural cousins, not a single one of them had either a son too young to be brought to battle, or a daughter, left behind at Highgarden?

[shockwave]

maybe the Tyrell quietly killed them and said they were burned in the battle? It's not like anyone could identify the corpses

[Jaak]

maybe the Tyrell quietly killed them and said they were burned in the battle? It's not like anyone could identify the corpses

They could not say so about women and children known to have been left behind at Highgarden.

[aryagonnakill#2]

If women were left alive they would have been married off and lost their name. As far as Aegon was concerned appointed the stewards was perfect because they were not a super powerful house already and they were already there running highgarden, and they surrendered where the Gardners fought.

[mindcrash]

This is another example of a problem I see with the family trees...I think it's pretty silly to think that it's so easy to kill off an entire bloodline considering how old these families are...there were would be many junior branches of all of the great houses. Situations like the Daynes and Fossoways would be commonplace. I think realistically you'd see junior branches of all of the great houses ruling castles, holdfasts, and towns all over the countryside.

[The hairy bear]

I think that common use in Westeros is that house names are only used if you are somehow living within the household or you have some tangible claim to the seat.

In the case in point, the Gardeners would have either mixed with other Houses (in this case they would have picked their name), founded their own minor house (making up a new name for them), or would have fallen down to being basically a commoner (and in this case they would no longer need surnames).

[aryagonnakill#2]

You don't want lots of other houses with the same name because then it creates succession issues/ creates potential usurpers.

[Jaak]

This is another example of a problem I see with the family trees...I think it's pretty silly to think that it's so easy to kill off an entire bloodline considering how old these families are...there were would be many junior branches of all of the great houses. Situations like the Daynes and Fossoways would be commonplace. I think realistically you'd see junior branches of all of the great houses ruling castles, holdfasts, and towns all over the countryside.

That´s a question for the kings. Would they, as a matter of longstanding policy, go about picking off and exterminating their vassals to replace them with their family members? Or would distant cousins be as suspicious as unrelated people? Starks tried putting Starks at White Harbor - but Greystarks betrayed them after five centuries. Karstarks did it for first time after a millennium... but the unrelated Manderlies have not done it yet.

Tywin Lannister could have given Castamere to Kevan and Tarbeck Hall to Tygett to establish branch Lannister houses. He preferred to have not a soul to hear the rains.

If a family is unwilling to provide for younger sons, or unwanted nephews and cousins, then Reach had alternative employments that entailed celibacy. Septons. Maesters. Warrior´s Sons. Harren the Black had 4 sons who died... but he also had a brother who survived. Because he was Lord Commander of the Night Watch.

[SeanF]

There are loads of Gardeners still around. The Tyrells, Rowans, Florents, Hightowers, Redwynes etc. all have Gardener ancestors. But, after the Field of Fire, anyone with the Gardener surname would have switched to something less contentious.

Had Aegon and his sisters subsequently been defeated, and the Reach regained independence, the new king would likely have resumed the Gardener surname.

[TheSovereignGrave]

I think that common use in Westeros is that house names are only used if you are somehow living within the household or you have some tangible claim to the seat.

In the case in point, the Gardeners would have either mixed with other Houses (in this case they would have picked their name), founded their own minor house (making up a new name for them), or would have fallen down to being basically a commoner (and in this case they would no longer need surnames).

I don't think so, since if I recall correctly it was centuries before the Starks of Karhold became known as the Karstarks. So if a Gardener was given a smaller seat, they probably would've kept the Gardener name.

[C.T. Phipps]

Westeros doesn't function on strict primogeniture when it comes to the "Great Houses" at least but allows the name to survive if the male line is going extinct.

Look at Harry the Heir becoming Harry Arryn.

It makes 8,000 years of Starks slightly more believable.

[Vikingkingq]

But Gardeners? Mern had 4 sons, eldest of them being Edmund, and the others were all of age to fight and burn at Field of Fire. And 2 grandsons - both old enough to be on the field as squires.

It is already a coincidence that these 4 adult sons did not, alongside 2 grandsons old enough to be squires, have any younger grandsons (who would have been left home). But then we are told that Mern also had brothers (plural), cousins (plural) and other kin... including one nephew who survived his burns for 3 days and was a Gardener.

How come that between Mern´s 4 sons, plural brothers and plural cousins, not a single one of them had either a son too young to be brought to battle, or a daughter, left behind at Highgarden?

With a daughter, you need a daughter too young to be already married and thus have lost the Gardener name, so there's that too.

Doesn't seem that odd to me. Depending on the age of Mern et al. I think you could easily engineer a scenario in which everyone either doesn't have kids, has only daughters, or has older sons who'd be fighting rather than staying home.

[Mithras]

Almost all the noble Reach Houses have Gardener ancestors and most of them have better claim to Highgarden than the Tyrells.

House Volmark has a female Hoare ancestor.

House Whent seems like extinct but Edmure, Cat's children and SR have a claim to Harrenhal.

[Lord Varys]

That one is easy. All male close male kin of King Mern died with him on the Field of Fire. His close kin - sons and grandsons - were close to him, and his more distant kin was apparently hanging out somewhere else in the army, and died, too.

The surviving lines would all have been female.

And it is also heavily implied that there were not all that many Gardeners around, as a second cousin or something was made the Gardener king after the Dornishmen captured and sacked Highgarden...

[Maid So Fair]

Maybe the last Gardener married a Tyrell girl only to suffer an unfortunate accident at the wedding.

[Jaak]

And it is also heavily implied that there were not all that many Gardeners around, as a second cousin or something was made the Gardener king after the Dornishmen captured and sacked Highgarden...

That was after King Garth Greybeard, whose two daughters waged 10+ years of war for his crown... why? Was neither of them the elder?

Yet it was long time ago: there had been 9 Gardener-Tyrell marriages since. Gardeners don´t need that much time to multiply.

We have a minimum of 8 attested adult male Gardeners eligible to fight and die at Field of Fire, all of whom were descendants of Mern´s father, presumably Garse VII slain by Argilac on Summerfield:

Mern IX

4 sons of Mern, of whom the eldest son and heir Edmund is named

(Both grandsons being squires do not count, for they were not expressly Gardeners)

Plural, i. e. minimum of 2, brethren of Mern, thus sons of Mern´s father

The nephew who died "with house Gardener" being necessarily a son of one of these brothers.

(Cousins were not specifically Gardeners, and specifically not descendants of Garse. "Other kin" were not necessarily Gardeners either.).