Should brothels be banned?

[James Arryn]

I'm more than a little sure that this was supposed to be an example of why Stannis would be a disastrous King. Whether his reasons were ethical, psychological or strategic, it betrays a real misunderstanding of how human beings work, and mistakenly asserts that 'should' transcends 'is'.

[GallopingGhost]

Depends on the prostitute. Some prostitutes work under very exploitative circumstances where they are controlled by a pimp, have no say in who their clients are or what their clients can do with them, and have all their earnings confiscated. Others are freelancers who don't have a pimp and are in complete control of what clients they accept. And then there are some who fall between those extremes to varying degrees.

Depends on the prostitute. In Westeros, I'd agree. For your 5 dollar hooker taking whatever she can get on the street, I'd agree. For a high dollar "escort" service, I'd be inclined to think they are allowed a certain comfort level.

Yeah, no doubt people like the Black Pearl of Braavos has discretion over her clients, as well as high scale places like Chataya's to an extent. But a prostitute at a common brothel is probably not having her comfort level contemplated.

[ummester]

Selling sex is almost as old a human tradition as wanting it - Stannis would have an easier time banning trade with Essos than prostitution in King's Landing. He must be a prude.

Op, your dad seems a bit biased. I worked in Law Enforcement once upon a time and can assure you and your dad, prostitutes are just like anyone else, people trying to make some money and live their lives. Some are happy and some are sad.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The ignorance of the OP upsets me. I do not mean to be insulting, and I know that is how the word ignorance is taken, however it really is ignorant because you are simply not aware of the facts. When prostitution is illegal, many of the woman are in fact sex slaves, or worse. Worse meaning forcibly hooked on heroin or being child sex slaves. However in Nevada, the woman are tested weekly, make 6 figure salaries, and are often sexy happy women. There are even women who live on Florida and commute to Nevada doing 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. There are even married women working as prostitutes in Nevada and if you ask them if they feel degraded, they ask if it is more degrading to work 4 hours a day 26 weeks a year making over 100k than it is to scrub toilets or flip burgers just to be poor.

Women in Nevada have to petition the state to be allowed to work in that profession, and owners of the brothel can take a maximum 50% of the money from the women actually doing the work.

"When you make something illegal, all you do is multiple the evils associated with it." - a woman's rights activist who's name I cannot remember in regards to prostitution.

I encourage anyone who is not familiar with Nevada's regulated prostitution to do some reading.

[teemo]

Honestly, I think you would have to change other stuff before banning prostitution. That's just not thinking ahead very clearly. It's kind of like Dany abolishing slavery and then she has former slaves ANGRY at her because they are homeless and starving and want to be slaves again.

[The Dragon King]

I don't think you understand how prostitution works.

HBO had a series called "Cathuose", they show very clearly how it works, you may want to check it out.

[teemo]

HBO had a series called "Cathuose", they show very clearly how it works, you may want to check it out.

Yeah, I watched that. They mostly showed the girls as being very happy and fun, and for the most part I believe it. They were making a lot of money and got to set their own rules. They would even show girls that would come and try it out and find out it wasn't for them. There are also probably girls that aren't as happy there but they don't focus on them, obviously. They would center the show around the most playful and successful women.

[Fae Boleyn]

No, outright banning the brothels won't work. First of all, working as a prostitute might be horrible (individual circumstances vary, in the real past, now, and in ASOIAF) but it's better than to risk having no way to earn an income. Regulation would be a good idea, if they could manage it.

A ban wouldn't stop it anyway. All that would happen is brothels would be hidden, thus making working conditions likely to be even dirtier and unhealthy than they are now. Also, you have to consider larger consequences; a lack of brothels will drive at least some of the sailors away, which could impact trade. A large group of newly unemployed hurts the internal trade of the city and leads to more job competition too.

[James Arryn]

Ok, well, full disclosure, as someone who worked for an escort agency at one point, it's mostly undramatic. Then again, this was high end as opposed to street walkers, so I never saw that side...but like with alcohol and drugs, the vast majority of the questionable element derives out of the fact that it is ~ outside the law.

(wasn't a brothel, rather a call service. I have never been in a brothel or hired a prostitute, so my view is pretty informed but probably a bit narrow.)

[BitsOfBrains]

When Stannis was master of ships, he had the idea of banning all the brothels in Kings Landing.

Some say he did it because he was a repressed prude. Perhaps that is so, but there is another reason to ban them: to do so as a public health measure, and to stop the exploitation of people.

I think its a little misleading how the prostitutes are portrayed in the show and in the books. They are shown as very sexual, attractive, and "fun loving" types. However, prostitutes in the real world ( whether middle ages or today) I have heard are very unhappy, sad people. In the middle ages they were probably crawling with disease after one year or so on the job.

Before I was born, my father prosecuted a few prostiution cases. He told me the prostitutes generally despise their clients are very bitter and hateful people overall.

It just seems bad imo, and expletive. I wouldn't want them banned in Westeros for "sexual morals" reasons, just because of the human trafficking aspect.

Any thoughts?

In Westeros, no. In Westeros there is no wellfare, no social safety net. If a girl doesn't marry well she pretty much has to be a whore or starve.

In the real world there are different kinds of prostitutes. The strung out street walking crack whore with HIV is probably pretty bitter. The CL call girl type is often just a pretty young girl who doesn't want to work, she makes doctor/lawyer money picking and choosing her Jons. At the top of the list are porn stars. The current porn industry video is pretty much an infomercial for high end prostitutes. Porn pays way less than it did so any girl you see in a porn is turning tricks all over the country for big bucks.

I think the sex industry is like any other industry. A street walker is like the McDonalds level worker. They make shit, the working conditions are horrible, the hours are horrible, zero benefits, zero room for advancement, horrible obnoxious customers easy to hate. On the other end of the spectrum is the master chef. They make good money, their clients know their names and request them, etc.

[kimim]

Ok, well, full disclosure, as someone who worked for an escort agency at one point, it's mostly undramatic. Then again, this was high end as opposed to street walkers, so I never saw that side...but like with alcohol and drugs, the vast majority of the questionable element derives out of the fact that it is ~ outside the law.

(wasn't a brothel, rather a call service. I have never been in a brothel or hired a prostitute, so my view is pretty informed but probably a bit narrow.)

I didn't work for an escort agency, but had a friend who did in California. She complained about cutthroat competition amongst the workers, but she didn't feel degraded. She quit after a while to pursue standup comedy. My sense is disasters happen when it's illegal. Put it under the crown's control, and take care of the workers. lol these could be the first unionized jobs in Westeros.

[Rawhead]

Banning brothels would be a great way to neuter Littlefinger financially, assuming you were aware of his ambitions and you were able to enact the edict well before he could gain any significant capital from it.

[JonSnow4President]

Banning brothels would be a great way to neuter Littlefinger financially, assuming you were aware of his ambitions and you were able to enact the edict well before he could gain any significant capital from it.

So would seizing control for the crown.

[ummester]

The Iron bank would put Little Finger back in business - he's probably the only one who can make good on what Westeros owes now :D

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Selling sex is almost as old a human tradition as wanting it - Stannis would have an easier time banning trade with Essos than prostitution in King's Landing. He must be a prude.

Op, your dad seems a bit biased. I worked in Law Enforcement once upon a time and can assure you and your dad, prostitutes are just like anyone else, people trying to make some money and live their lives. Some are happy and some are sad.

Ummester, were there any hookers who loved their "career" and were eager to tell other young women about the benefits and good work one does as a lady of the night? Were there any hooker conventions where they discussed "Taking prostitution into the 21st century?"

Im kidding. But there are variations of hookers even in the present day. There is a world of difference between a hooker in an amsterdam window, as opposed to a hooker turning tricks in the backseat of a broken down car in detroit.

[ummester]

Indeed, more 'streetwalkers' I encountered were down on themselves than brothel workers. I can't really recall any streetwalkers that were happy, many had addictions, boyfriend's with addictions, had gotten involved with organised criminal types and so on. Streetwalking is dangerous (girls told me stories of having knives held to them to supply services without payment and so on) and often taken up in desperation.

Not all prostitutes are streetwalkers, though.

An interesting thing I learnt about prostitution is that most government containment policy and prostitute registration requirements have to do with being able to tax the income, more than protect the workers. There are some high class prostitutes (or there were, where I worked back in the 90s) that effectively work outside of either situation and make enough in a night's work to pay their own protection (ie Thugs that drive around with them and take care of any situations that get out of hand). These very high class workers seemed quite happy.

Re King's Landing, I suspect it would have a range similar to that. Street Walkers that are (generally) unhappy, brothel workers that are (generally) doing a job and high class workers that are (generally) at the top of their game and rolling in cash.

[James Arryn]

I didn't work for an escort agency, but had a friend who did in California. She complained about cutthroat competition amongst the workers, but she didn't feel degraded. She quit after a while to pursue standup comedy. My sense is disasters happen when it's illegal. Put it under the crown's control, and take care of the workers. lol these could be the first unionized jobs in Westeros.

Yeah, similar. Quick version; got into it sideways...girl in my building who I'd got a bit friendly with really came through for me when things went v. bad, let me stay with her rent-free for a few months, just a lovely person.

But while she was the grad student I knew her to be, she was also an escort and soon after I moved in she and another girl...single mother with a doctorate...set up their own agency. That was the only semi-sketchy part; they seemed a bit afraid of their former agency finding out, and I came with her/waited in car last couple times she went to their office.

Anyways, my involvement; said no to being resident male escort, not really for ethical reasons, but because I doubted I'd manage attraction and therefore delivery for 'unknown female'...but agreed to the tamer, truly 'date' side and was the male who 'performed' with some of the girls on the odd occasion that was required, under the provision that I knew them/found them attractive...also in a couple films out there somewhere, but w/e.

What i did more, and this is where my experience is v. contrary to myth/like your friends...was handle the new girls, and this is the best part: I had the usual vision of prostitution as exploitative (not morally wrong in itself, just situationally) and was adamant that IF I was talking to the new girls, I would very much be of the 'are you completely sure this is what you want? Is there nothing else? Have you thought about how this will play out re: friends/family/relationships?' etc. and my friend (J) was absolutely fine/supportive of my being so.

Basically, there were a LOT more girls who wanted to be hired than were hired, and among other concerns, J and her partner didn't want any drama, any reluctant employees, any sense of taking advantage of despair or w/e. They were very happy doing what they did and wanted their employees, if that's the right word, it's a bit more like working for a modelling agency in my experience...to be likewise. So not only was I allowed to really question the girls' choice, I was encouraged to do so, which is v. different from how I normally see it depicted. Additionally, girls were repeatedly told about priorities, about not doing anything you had a problem with, leaving as soon as you got any bad vibe, etc.

They were mostly university students like myself or girls as you describe your friend who wanted a lot of material comfort and free time and were completely fine with trading on their attractiveness. I still have qualms about the...materialization of humanity angle, but I was pretty alone in that view at the agency, at least overtly.

And in part because this was such an expensive agency, the clients were much more likely to be NBA players in town for a game and wanting no complications than street crushers looking for someone to beat on. I have some v. interesting stories about celebs, but very few of the dramatic or w/e and no violence at all, ever, that I saw/heard about.

I would never use a prostitute, and there I get a bit hypocritical about it, having essentially been one (other experiences too, not gonna go into it) but all my actual experience with the 'profession' nullified a lot of my other negative assumptions about it from movies, etc. I'm sure that's out there, but I got to see the side of it most representative of the industry were in entirely legal.

[Annara Snow]

In Westeros, under present circumstances, that would be a horrible idea. It's not a good thing, but the alternative is worse. All it would do would be putting many lowborn people, mostly women, out of their jobs and leaving them unable to make a living. Many of them would beg or starve, others would manage to find low paid menial jobs - in the kitchens, as servants etc. - where they would get sexually harassed and abused and would have to endure that not to lose their crappy job; so, it would only be worse, as they wouldn't even be able to have the degree of control and choice that many prostitutes have (especially those with ni pimp or madame, like the camp followers) in choosing a client, setting sone parameters, and would also not get paid so well.

The only way to combat prostitution would be to remove the reasons why it's so widespread: through a thorough social, educational and cultural reform. Doesn't look like that's happening any time soon, and certainly not at Stannis' instigation.

However, some brothels definitely should be banned and their owners punished - those that practice sex slavery and child abuse. Littlefinger is definitely doing that, we know he has underage sex slaves in his brothels. Someone just needs to prove that. That's what Stannis should have focused on if he wanted to get LF. (But I think it's more likely he was just being a prude. At best he thought about the danger of diseases, but he doesn't strike me as someone who cares about the wellbeing of prostitutes.)

[ummester]

James A,

interesting points about male prostitutes.

1) How do they 'perform' if they are not attracted to their client? I know I couldn't :D

2) I asked a brothel owner once why she didn't have males on the books. My partner looked at me strange :D But I was genuinely interested from an intellectual POV. The owner told me that point 1 does effect the more heterosexual males and that it could create problems with the girls, in her experience. She said to me that often male prostitutes are quite sexually liberated and are happy with bisexual activity. This upset girls, she said, because they saw the males as taking more tricks with both male and female clients. I said well the girls could take female clients aswell, to even the odds but she said the girls liked the rules defined. Strange workplace politics :D

Which leads me to Annara, with prostitutes choosing a client. This is something that has always confused me a bit.

Sure, if you are self employed, you make your own choices, like some of the extremely high class prostitutes I mentioned. But if you work for an employer, in a brothel, aren't you obliged to do the work you are given? I mean ultimately prostitution is a financial transaction, services for payment. A cop can't say, I don't want to go to that murder, because the suburb scares me. A (public) doctor shouldn't refuse a patient on any grounds that can't be justified medically, technically or whatever.

I know different brothels where I spoke to the owners and workers had slightly different rules. Some would say the worker makes the choice and sets the rules, some would try and exert more dominance over the worker.

Bottom line is, like any other form of employment, its a job and, all things being equal, pay should equate work.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

^ Im no expert in the subject, but don't male prostitutes, by a pretty clear majority, service male clients rather than female?

I have just heard that somewhere.. that women rarely pay for male prostitutes... and gay men are more inclined for their services than women?