R+L=J v.122

[sj4iy]

Aye. The chapter in which Jaime talks about Cole doesn't mention Hightower, but it must be some reference that we haven't yet noticed.

Agreed. That didn't seem like a random reference.

Nor do I think it's random that Hightower stayed.

[BearQueen87]

Not really. In no way shape or form was Rhaegar and Lyanna ever going to cause peace as the pact of ice and fire was supposed to.

At minimum, Rhaegar and Lyanna pisses off a Lord Paramount in Robert, and pisses off the Dornish. That's 2 of the 7 Kingdoms angry right off the bat. Then House Stark is likely to get angry as well, especially considering their close ties to Robert. We're now at 3 of the 7 kingdoms angry. Jon Arryn will likely support Robert in a disagreement. That's 4. Hoster Tully is marrying his family into the Starks. He might join them in any action they do. That's 5/7 who now do not agree. Tywin Lannister might feel slighted that Rhaegar once again passed up his daughter. That's 6/7.

How you can say it's simply hindsight that Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna would shatter the realm is beyond me. It was a completely foreseeable event and pretty much happened exactly as I laid out.

Well....no.

We've done this before so I'm going to be brief.

Dorne: depends on Elia. She's been very silent during all of this but there is a good indication that she supported Rhaegar in his political moves (making sure the Red Viper was at HH) and prophetically (HotU vision)

Stormlands: Robert, yes...pissed. But if everyone else is against him in this, it doesn't matter what Robert Baratheon feels.

Stark: Nope. Rickard Stark and his southron ambitions. It doesn't get more southron and more ambitious than being the wife of the King.

Arryn: I have no idea why you think Jon Arryn would support Robert. He's a logical guy. And friends with Ned as well as Robert. Why take one side over the other? Especially if the rest of the high lords are a-ok?

Lannister: Yes, problem because Cersei. But...if there is an arrangement by which Tywin is made Rhaegar's hand (we know, supposedly, that Tywin faovred Rhaegar and said so publicly) and Cersei gets engaged to someone royal then that's them taken care of.

Tully: Will go Stark...see above

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yes, Ned's dream. It's pivotal to the storytelling, not just in the information it provides but in the way it presents it. The ToJ sequence isn't presented as a real memory but as a dream, and it follows a common mythic structure (maiden in the tower). It creates a kind of mystical precursor or "foundation myth" for the chain of events of ASOIAF. While I wouldn't trust the details to be particularly accurate, to undo such a fundamental part of it as Lyanna's presence would untether it from its place as a storytelling device.

I guess I just don't see the historical reliability of Lyanna's location as being nearly so "fundamental" to the meaning and significance of the dream. I'm okay to disagree with on that, as it sounds like a reliable dream-to-history correspondence may be central to your view of the story. And I'm sure we have different views on the story.

Well, it seems like a very problematic idea to be honest. Why would the 3KG have been at the ToJ in the first place, if not to guard Lyanna? And if Lyanna had gone on to Starfall, why would the 3KG be waiting there rather than accompanying her? If Aegon had arrived before Lyanna left, why would they not have all travelled to Starfall together, and if after why are the 3KG still hanging out there? Why would Aegon still be there when he had to have left before or during the sack, and Ned had time to stay in KL to sort things out and end the siege at Storm's End before reaching the ToJ? Why take Aegon on a very long cross country journey, when there's an army approaching or possibly sacking the city by land, but no threat by sea? Who took Aegon to the ToJ? There are a lot of questions raised by this idea, but does it give us any answers to help balance that out?

Problematic? Perhaps, if our reading of the story is already wedded to a certain set of interpretations and inferred conclusions. I don't see the idea as necessarily problematic for the story itself - much of which remains untold.

It does raise a bunch of interesting questions, yes. Several of which have come up for discussion in recent threads. Though I'm sure my suggested answers fall short in some ways, it does appear to me that certain assumptions related to RLJ make the conversation difficult. (Not a criticism, just an observation after having made the effort.). Generally, I think the questions are worth more consideration than they get here - but I recognize that may be just me.

Hope everyone here in RLJ-land enjoys the holidays, and has a happy New Year! :cheers:

[wolfmaid7]

So far as polygamy and incest are concerned I'd suggest that the law doesn't come into it. Polygamy, incest and worse still polygamous incest all appear to be against the laws of gods and men before, during and after the Targaryen dynasty and I think it futile to look for a record or recollection of laws gainst it being repealed or re-instated.

Rather I think it comes down to the old joke of what do you call a man who is seven feet tall, built like the proverbial brick shithouse and carrying a big stick, the answer of course being - Sir.

In this case it may be forbid by law and by the faith but when a Targaryen king in possession of dragons announces an intention of marrying both of his sisters the only realistic response is to enquire how many he intends inviting to the wedding feast.

I can by this as an arguement,but i have to ask was Rheagar 7 ft tall with a big stick? At the point in time i don't he was.I do believe he was gathering support to dipose his father yes but he had to be assured of that support and the belief that said supporters would accept him having a second wife.Plus there is a little problem of "how" he did what he did. No matter if he abducted Lya or not he was successful at pissing off some powerful lords.

I guess we should look at this hypothetical situation:

Rhaegar and Lyanna were secretly married. There is undeniable proof of said marriage. Will that stop people from objecting? Of course not...there will be people who see polygamy as against the gods. What happens, though, if Jon is the one who saves the realm? What if he is TPTWP? What if he has a flaming sword and a dragon? Well, then people will start to see it differently, won't they?

Alternatively, let's say he is chosen king, and his fucks it up badly. Then people will change their minds again, won't they?

It's all about perspective, and perspective can change. If Jon is amazing leader, then people will accept that he's a true son of Rhaegar...if he screws up, they won't. Unfortunately, it will put him back in the boat of prove himself...but that seems to be his lot in life.

This undeniable proof if what gets me and i'll ask about it on the next page because there seems to be a problem that prohibits me form adding quotes from the other page.I digress.

Jon isn't in the running to be leader. Everybody's parentage is in question except for Dany she "has" a claim.So the same can be said of her and even Ageon if he's fake or not Jon will be in the same boat as him having to proove who he is.If either of them proves to be capable leader the people accept them.

There's another and imo a more plausible option the people will not care about a Monarchy anymore and there will be no more throne.There is forshadowing of that if one connects the dots. Jon's destiny does not lay on the iron throne,he'll have a throne yes just not that one.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And you will certainly remember that what was posted was a claim, not a quote. ...Plus, even if it is stated by Yandell, why don't we have the same claim in TPAQ?

What I posted was a quote from the World of Ice and Fire - the same one you say you haven't read. Maybe you just have me set to "Ignore." Not sure what you mean by the word "claim."

Here it is:

And whatever version of the tale was true, we do know that Daemon asked for Rhaenyras hand, if only Viserys would set aside his marriage to Lady Rhea. Viserys refused, and instead exiled Daemon from the Seven Kingdoms, never to return upon pain of death. - TWoIaF, Viserys I

...

...Exactly the same quote I provided (and bolded, in context) when I responded to the request back in RLJ v.119. Here: R+L=J v.119, post 138. (I was trying to help.)

Anyway. Happy holidays!

.

[sj4iy]

This undeniable proof if what gets me and i'll ask about it on the next page because there seems to be a problem that prohibits me form adding quotes from the other page.I digress.

Jon isn't in the running to be leader. Everybody's parentage is in question except for Dany she "has" a claim.So the same can be said of her and even Ageon if he's fake or not Jon will be in the same boat as him having to proove who he is.If either of them proves to be capable leader the people accept them.

There's another and imo a more plausible option the people will not care about a Monarchy anymore and there will be no more throne.There is forshadowing of that if one connects the dots. Jon's destiny does not lay on the iron throne,he'll have a throne yes just not that one.

You missed the point of my post.

I never said that there WAS undeniable proof. I clearly stated that it was a hypothetical situation. The point of my post was to illustrate that even if there WERE undeniable proof of Jon's legitimacy, that it truly doesn't matter unless Jon proves himself. He will get nothing for free or by birthright...he will have to work for it. If he did become king, and fucked it up, people would say "he's not a trueborn son of Rhaegar". But if he became king and brought peace and prosperity to the realm, they would say "that's the real son of Rhaegar".

Again, perspective can be changed by what a person does or does not do.

[wolfmaid7]

I can agree with some that the reference on the front page is a bit off in it's claim.Part of presenting an arguement that is unbiased (and i'll address this statement to Sj4iy because you brought it up) is that it goes to credability of the info and to the people relaying the info if it is not slanted. It is one thing to present facts and interpret it,than it is to alter the info in anyway and present it in a way that seemingly manipulates the outcome.So it is your duty to present info that is unbiased though your opinion and interpretation would be stated. So to go back to the reference guide and i see attempts have been made to correct.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

I'm not on here long because it does move fast and i hate to go back and brings stuff up.I haven't had the time to contemplate this in totality but i will ask because i probably missed something.The above highligted poses questions for me.

1. What proof is there in the text that R and L were married? And no not that the Kingsguard were there as proof ,that in itself would be circular reasoning.

2. I'm having real difficulty with your guys conclusion on this one so please bear with me. If Rheagar,Ageon,and Aerys are out of the picture and Viserys is King,why would the KGs choose to guard a pregnant lady whose baby's sex is unknown over their king and why would said baby jump ahead of the line if Viserys is still alive? Shouldn't they have found their way to Viserys?

[wolfmaid7]

You missed the point of my post.

I never said that there WAS undeniable proof. I clearly stated that it was a hypothetical situation. The point of my post was to illustrate that even if there WERE undeniable proof of Jon's legitimacy, that it truly doesn't matter unless Jon proves himself. He will get nothing for free or by birthright...he will have to work for it. If he did become king, and fucked it up, people would say "he's not a trueborn son of Rhaegar". But if he became king and brought peace and prosperity to the realm, they would say "that's the real son of Rhaegar".

Again, perspective can be changed by what a person does or does not do.

I apologize i honestly did not see the hypothetical i'm on my phone so i did miss that.

[sj4iy]

I apologize i honestly did not see the hypothetical i'm on my phone so i did miss that.

No problem.

[Ygrain]

2. I'm having real difficulty with your guys conclusion on this one so please bear with me. If Rheagar,Ageon,and Aerys are out of the picture and Viserys is King,why would the KGs choose to guard a pregnant lady whose baby's sex is unknown over their king and why would said baby jump ahead of the line if Viserys is still alive? Shouldn't they have found their way to Viserys?

Delay in receiving info, most probably. By the time the news of the Sack reached ToJ, Jon either had been born, or the term was mere days close. In RL, this would be a period of brief interregnum during which no-one was king until the baby was born and its place in the succession line established.

[lady ginger]

hey again everybody...I just wanted to say a little something. I am pretty much just an observer here, if you will, as I only read the books after watching the show and realized it was based on a book series (I know, pretty lame). And I only found this forum when I started looking for more about it after I rushed to read the 5 main books...then the world book...then Dunk & Egg. Obviously I have not analyzed or studied the books for years or anything like that. I have only read the RLJ since I think like #113 or so. But I think I was thinking about Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid while I watched the show and then definitely after reading the books. While I understand that people want their point of view to be right, I don't understand why it is that people want to get on a thread that is really FOR the premise that R+L=J so they can try and discount what amounts to I believe (being a novice and all) a pretty substantial argument in favor of the theory, and really not too much (from what I see) to point in any other direction. I come on here to get more insight to things that I have not taken the time to think critically about, probably because I am pretty lazy and there are a lot of people on here that have done a lot of work researching and analyzing that I can look at and say 'oh yeah that does make sense'. But being an outsider looking in, I thought this thread was for people who support the theory and are looking for more textual evidence or circumstantial evidence to bolster the theory..I just feel that if someone doesn't believe it that maybe there would be more actual evidence against it to get on this particular thread and be able to show something that really makes someone like me (observer/outsider) say 'oh, well I guess it might not be true that R+L=J.

Anyway....not trying to start any poop. I just want to feel like I'm part of the conversation I guess

[Ser Leftwich]

Leaving on holiday. Merry and Happy to all.

May the Comic Sans be taken lightly and the quotes be accurate and complete.

[MtnLion]

1. What proof is there in the text that R and L were married? And no not that the Kingsguard were there as proof ,that in itself would be circular reasoning.

2. I'm having real difficulty with your guys conclusion on this one so please bear with me. If Rheagar,Ageon,and Aerys are out of the picture and Viserys is King,why would the KGs choose to guard a pregnant lady whose baby's sex is unknown over their king and why would said baby jump ahead of the line if Viserys is still alive? Shouldn't they have found their way to Viserys?

1. If Jon is not legitimate then at least one of the Kingsguard should already be on his way to Dragonstone to fulfill the Kingsguard's duty to Viserys, when Ned arrives. It is not circular reasoning, it is quite clear that the Kingsguard believe that they are doing their duty by all of them remaining at the tower, and they clearly point to their vow (Ned says that his belief of the vow is to protect and defend the king with their lives. The dream must make sense to Ned.) Add in that the author even tells us that when Ned arrives one of the Kingsguard is on his knee. Clearly, this is an easter egg for when one rereads, knowing that Jon is legitimate.

2. Do you know how succession works? In this case Rhaegar is Aerys' heir. If Rhaegar predeceases Aerys, then Rhaegar's sons are heir, oldest first. Only when all of Rhaegar's sons and their sons, and their sons . . . have been exhausted do we pass to Viserys. Daenerys, being female cannot inherit while any possible male heirs are available. (Dance of the Dragons.) As Ygrain points out there could have been an interregnum. More likely, from what we know of the timing, is that word of Aerys' death did not preceed Jon's birth. And, yes, if the baby (Jon) is not legitimate, they should have: a ) found a way to Dragonstone; b ) accepted Ned's offer to go to Dragonstone.

Click on the link in my signature, bottom line at the tower of joy, to read an analysis of the dialog. To understand why it is significant, Ygrain added some comments, also linked. The last two links were added for trolls. ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Leaving on holiday. Merry and Happy to all

Idem. Leaving already to start finishing... stuff for Christmas :P

Take care and be good, kiddies.

(also, this bc R+J=A+D+J=happiness :P)

[markg171]

Well....no.

We've done this before so I'm going to be brief.

Dorne: depends on Elia. She's been very silent during all of this but there is a good indication that she supported Rhaegar in his political moves (making sure the Red Viper was at HH) and prophetically (HotU vision)

Stormlands: Robert, yes...pissed. But if everyone else is against him in this, it doesn't matter what Robert Baratheon feels.

Stark: Nope. Rickard Stark and his southron ambitions. It doesn't get more southron and more ambitious than being the wife of the King.

Arryn: I have no idea why you think Jon Arryn would support Robert. He's a logical guy. And friends with Ned as well as Robert. Why take one side over the other? Especially if the rest of the high lords are a-ok?

Lannister: Yes, problem because Cersei. But...if there is an arrangement by which Tywin is made Rhaegar's hand (we know, supposedly, that Tywin faovred Rhaegar and said so publicly) and Cersei gets engaged to someone royal then that's them taken care of.

Tully: Will go Stark...see above

Actually we know that Elia did not approve of Rhaegar and Lyanna

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

ALL the smiles. That means Elia too.

Stark: If he ever did have southron ambitions, they were about building alliances, not tearing them down which is exactly what Rhaegar and Lyanna would do by angering Robert and Doran. Plus having your only daughter be the second wife, does nothing for you. Having her be the mother of the lord of the Stormlands does.

Arryn: Jon has supported Robert in everything he's done before. No idea why you'd assume he wouldn't here as well, when I've seen you use precedent as the only support for your ideas before.

Lannister: Why would Rhaegar make Tywin Hand? He has his own friends and doesn't need Tywin. Matching Cersei with someone else is also pure speculation, but the evidence in the text says Tywin wanted her Queen, not simply family royalty. So no he wouldn't have been okay with this.

[sj4iy]

Leaving on holiday. Merry and Happy to all.

May the Comic Sans be taken lightly and the quotes be accurate and complete.

Have fun!

[markg171]

Agreed. That didn't seem like a random reference.

Nor do I think it's random that Hightower stayed.

Which would make Hightower a kingmaker and a bad KG according to everything we know which runs contrary to the argument that on here.

[sj4iy]

It's not circular reasoning to see that Ned reveres Arthur Dayne, and then look at the ToJ situation and say "Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. Why would he revere Arthur Dayne as a shining example of the KG when he refused to go to his king, Viserys?" That's just called 'reasoning'.

[MtnLion]

It's not circular reasoning to see that Ned reveres Arthur Dayne, and then look at the ToJ situation and say "Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense. Why would he revere Arthur Dayne as a shining example of the KG when he refused to go to his king, Viserys?" That's just called 'reasoning'.

It really is not a good idea to feed the trolls. ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which would make Hightower a kingmaker and a bad KG according to everything we know which runs contrary to the argument that on here.

Actually, everythign related to the KG is about what exactly is honour and what is not. Jaime's actions were in fact, honourable and in his mind, the KG shuns him for have killed the King. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that Hightower and the others were conspiring against the King, which is betrayal, despite the king was an horrible asshole.