sifth Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Where's the hypocrisy? She could not have saved him if she tried, so she didn't try, but Viserys also gave her good reason not to try. It's pretty simple. and she still allowed her husband to kill him in one of the most painful ways imaginable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 In "Dance", Ned Stark apparently "never trusted" Roose Bolton. Yet somehow it never came up between Robb and Catelyn (and in Catelyn's thoughts), when it came to picking a commander for the entire Northern infantry. In AGOT, Sansa's the one who had to remind her siblings that Jon Snow is a bastard. Seems like there's really no love between those two. But in later books - Sansa gave Jon dating tips? And instead Robb was a dick about Jon's bastardy, reminding him of it during their make-believe games? It does feel as if the author regretted the aloof first impression Sansa had made in Book 1. Sansa never had to "remind her siblings that Jon Snow is a bastard". That's nonsense. They all knew he was a bastard. Jon just thinks that Sansa has always called him nothing but "half-brother" since she learned what "bastard" means. That's the only thing Jon ever mentions regarding Sansa. Sansa also corrects Arya once when she says "brother" to "half-brother". She never calls him a bastard. How the hell does giving him dating tips contradict that? Calling someone your half-brother means you hate him?! An guess what - other Stark kids also call Jon half-brother, Bran thinks of him that way lots of times, Jon calls them his half-siblings, too. It's not retcon when books contradict fanon, something you or other fans made up by misinterpreting or misremembering the text. Things like "X was not revealed until book 4" are also not retcons. We didn't hear about Maggy's prophecy until AFFC? So? We were not in Cersei's head. There's nothing in previous books that contradicts that and makes it impossible. We get new information all the time. In this case, it just seems like some people understand "retcon" to mean "new information I don't like". Speaking of fanon: there's a popular fanon that Sansa supported Joffrey's version of the story about the Mycah incident, which is actually not true - she said she didn't remember so she wouldn't have to support either story. One could perhaps argue that Sandor saying in ASOS during his trial in the cave that Sansa supported Joffrey's story, and Arya reacting by it by screaming that Sansa was a liar, instead of pointing it was not true, was an example of an unintentional retcon, i.e. that GRRM forgot about it. It's quite possible GRRM did forget about it, especially after probably having heard from fans who were all like: "I hate Sansa so much for lying for Joffrey at the trial!" But, it doesn't actually qualify as a retcon, since it's easy to explain: Sandor was never at the trial, and he never talked to Sansa about it, so he would have no clue what was really said. It's not like he was waiting for the trial and Sansa's testimony to decide whether to obey the order and kill Mycah - he and other Lannister men had been sent by Cersei to look for Arya and Mycah immediately, presumably having been told that Mycah had attacked the crown prince; neither Cersei nor Sandor nor the other Lannister men were waiting to hear what Sansa or anyone else had to say about it. He killed Mycah and went back. Now, he could have been told by Joffrey after that that, yes, the trial supposedly confirmed Joffrey's story, Sansa said he was telling the truth. Joffrey lied. Or Sandor is lying, or misremembering. In any case, he's only using that as justification for what he did after the fact, not the reason why he went and killed him. And he had really good reasons to want to believe Joffrey's version was true and try and feel good about himself, and he's trying to use that as justification. Whatever the case may be, one thing is certain - he wasn't at the trial and didn't hear what Sansa said. Now, when it comes to Arya, she is misremembering what happened. But that's not that odd - people will easily forget what actually happened more than a year ago, when they're influenced by someone else telling them that something different happened. And most importantly, Arya always saw Sansa claiming not to remember, as Sansa taking Joffrey's side, and didn't see the difference - her first reaction at the trial was to start screaming at Sansa that she's a liar. So, I can see how Arya would forget what actually happened. All this is, therefore, explainable and does not fall into retcon category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 and she still allowed her husband to kill him in one of the most painful ways imaginable. Allowed? Where's the hypocrisy? She could not have saved him if she tried, so she didn't try, but Viserys also gave her good reason not to try. It's pretty simple. Dany would not have been able to stop Drogo from doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Allowed? Dany would not have been able to stop Drogo from doing it. I didn't even see her try, in fact she helped trick Viserys into a false sense of easy by saying he'd finally get his crown. I'm not saying she wasn't justified, but she's still an accomplice to murder never the less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 and she still allowed her husband to kill him in one of the most painful ways imaginable. Honestly in this situation if Dany had killed him herself it would be justified. I would think that direct self defense provides an out to the kinslayer issue does it not? Or are you supposed to let your sibling murder you and your unborn child in order to avoid being "cursed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Saying Dany should have saved Viserys from being killed by Drogo is like pretending Cat could have told Ned to spare someone's life in front of his bannermen in the middle of a war council and he had said "ok". Ever seen "The King and I"? (Jodie Foster version). The king orders the death of Tuptim but plans to release her for compassion. Until Anne says in front of everybody "I will ask the King to release her". Then, the King couldn't release her anymore because it would look as though he's receiving orders from a foreigner woman. Same situation. Drogo couldn't be "ordered" by her wife, specially after Viserys committed a terrible crime for the Dothraki and against the Khal. He would be seen as weak. Context, people. It's not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Honestly in this situation if Dany had killed him herself it would be justified. I would think that direct self defense provides an out to the kinslayer issue does it not? Or are you supposed to let your sibling murder you and your unborn child in order to avoid being "cursed"? Self defense is still murder. It might be justified murder, but murder is still murder. Anything else is just sugar coating things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Self defense is still murder. It might be justified murder, but murder is still murder. Anything else is just sugar coating things. Er self defense is definitely not murder. It is a type of homicide but that is not the same thing as murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I didn't even see her try, in fact she helped trick Viserys into a false sense of easy by saying he'd finally get his crown. I'm not saying she wasn't justified, but she's still an accomplice to murder never the less. So? Again, she has no reason to try and save his life when he just threatened hers. (Call him a kinslayer because I doubt he had a OBGYN on hand to fix her up after his sword abortion.) And even if she had good reason to try and keep him alive besides "he's family. abusive and now possibly murderous family, but family still," she could. not. have. stopped. it. Drogo may have respected her to a certain extent but her definitely did not ask how high when she said jump. Quite the opposite actually. And ignoring whether or not Drogo would have been merciful for her, the other khals would not have. Drogo was not the khal of khals. Viserys dug his own grave and Dany has no blame to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Why has the thread about retconning become a thread about Dany and Viserys' murder? Start another thread if you want to discuss that. Oh and BTW, it's "retcon", not "ret con". When I saw this title, at first glance for a half a second I thought it had Red Ronnet Connington's name in it. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Er self defense is definitely not murder. It is a type of homicide but that is not the same thing as murder. Like I said sugar coating. If you honestly think Viserys was a threat to anyone in that room, half drunk and barely able to walk, you're just sugar coating things further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Why has the thread about retconning become a thread about Dany and Viserys' murder? Start another thread if you want to discuss that. Oh and BTW, it's "retcon", not "ret con". When I saw this title, at first glance for a half a second I thought it had Red Ronnet Connington's name in it. :lol: It started somewhat relevant but you know we boarders just can't help ourselves. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I thought it was about RC too :lol: Seriously, are we going to suffer the Dany hate/bias everytime Dany is mentioned this new yea-- ah, wtf, who am I kidding, of course we will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kompaya Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Why the fu do you have to argue over Viserys? This post was about retcons... self-control people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Eh, for me the thing about Viserys is more that Dany was OK that her king died because he threatened her life. But when Ned and Robert rebel after the King calls for their heads, it's Usurper's Dogs and all that. Not that I expect her to be aware of the nitty gritty of the Rebellion, but it's funny how those things work. And of course I don't consider it kinslaying, that would be rather silly, but she still stood by while her brother and king was murdered, so IMO she doesn't get away scot-free. Anyway, wasn't this thread about retcons? Personally the biggest one I found was Tyrion being an athlete in GoT and losing that attribute once Martin knew that dwarfs don't work that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Why the fu do you have to argue over Viserys? This post was about retcons... self-control people oh, sweet summer child. People can't control themselves when Dany is on the discussion :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 Why the fu do you have to argue over Viserys? This post was about retcons... self-control people oh, sweet summer child. People can't control themselves when Dany is on the discussion :lol: Plus, it started out relevant if you trace it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 The biggest one involved the Targaryen family tree. I don't remember the details, I think he made Viserys II go from a son of Aegon III to his brother after he wrote The Hedge Knight. Ran pointed out to him that the timeline didn't add up. Of course that only effected the appendix of early versions of Game. Early in Game there are no weirwoods south of the neck. Then we see them in just about every southern castle we visit sans Kings Landing. The size of Vhagar and Meraxes' skulls was sorta "soft retconned." Really Vhagar's should have been much bigger than Meraxes'. The explanation given is that dragons grow at different rates. And most recently the Orwyle/Gerardys thing. The Tyrion acrobatics thing was at least partially explained later on, he says something about his uncle teaching him that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 The Tyrion acrobatics thing was at least partially explained later on, he says something about his uncle teaching him that stuff. He can do cartwheels, who aren't that hard (ok, I can't). But that's completely different from what he did in GoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 He can do cartwheels, who aren't that hard (ok, I can't). But that's completely different from what he did in GoT. You're right, but Martin did try to explain it away with that. Maybe he was just really drunk and paid for it in pain the next morning. I feel like there was another retcon from the worldbook I just can't think of... but I may have been thinking of Ellyn Reyne's death, which was by hanging when Martin did that reading at Con-Carolinas. They fixed it before the book came out so she died when the walls collapsed on her as is said in the novels. Just goes to show that he does make mistakes like that. If we include SSMs (which I know we aren't) there's tons now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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