R + L = J v. 126

[The Twinslayer]

Oh and what name did Mance take? Bael. Hm. What the story of Bael the Bard again. Oh right, a very clear RLJ parallel.

I think it was Abel.

We have a few examples of Kings being left with only one KG and no one raising a fuss. Aerys went to Duskedale with just one. Robert went hunting with just one.

There are actually a lot more examples where the king had no Kingsguard present at all.

1. Every time the king rides a dragon.

2. Every time someone in authority (e.g., Larys, when the king was too incapacitated to give or ratify orders) tells them to do something else.

3. Every time the seven KGs have a meeting.

4. When Aerys died, and his heir Viserys was without any KGs on Dragonstone.

[Mithras]

I think it was Abel. There are actually a lot more examples where the king had no Kingsguard present at all.

1. Every time the king rides a dragon.

2. Every time someone in authority (e.g., Larys, when the king was too incapacitated to give or ratify orders) tells them to do something else.

3. Every time the seven KGs have a meeting.

4. When Aerys died, and his heir Viserys was without any KGs on Dragonstone.

3. That does not mean that they leave the king unguarded.

“Sers,” Jaime said in a formal tone when all five had assembled, “who guards the king?”

“My brothers Ser Osney and Ser Osfryd,” Ser Osmund replied.

“And my brother Ser Garlan,” said the Knight of Flowers.

“Will they keep him safe?”

“They will, my lord.”

“Be seated, then.” The words were ritual. Before the seven could meet in session, the king’s safety must be assured.

[BearQueen87]

I think it was Abel.

You're right. I apologize. It's Abel....but we all know that Abel is just a mixup of Bael. (hello super Targ-looking name)

[Mithras]

I think it was Abel. There are actually a lot more examples where the king had no Kingsguard present at all.

1. Every time the king rides a dragon.

2. Every time someone in authority (e.g., Larys, when the king was too incapacitated to give or ratify orders) tells them to do something else.

3. Every time the seven KGs have a meeting.

4. When Aerys died, and his heir Viserys was without any KGs on Dragonstone.

4. When Aerys died, he had a KG by his side, don't you remember?

No doubt, Dragonstone was much more safer than KL at the time Aerys sent Viserys to Dragonstone. Aerys would surely send a KG instead of Ser Willem Darry with them if he had extra KG's available, but he didnot.

[The Twinslayer]

You're right. I apologize. It's Abel....but we all know that Abel is just a mixup of Bael. (hello super Targ-looking name)

Fair point. "Abel" does sound kind of Bael-ish.

[MtnLion]

A) They have orders

We can be virtually certain that the three at the tower received their orders, to stay there, from Rhaegar. But, the Kingsguard get their orders from the king, right? The reason that they stay and fight, after being offered the chance to surrender or even to go to Dragonstone must be something other than orders. Because as you insist, Viserys is now king, and the Kingsguard must get to him to find out what his orders are. They do mention why they stay and fight, we are Kingsguard, we swore a vow.

B ) They may know that protecting Jon is important to the survival of humanity

You are going to need to show something, anything to support this declaration, or it is just so much malarkey. What they do know is that survival of the Targaryen Dynasty requires them to defend the heir.

C) Viserys is not the king of the Seven Kingdoms anymore. I'm not saying that means they have no choice but to go to Robert, but it is an option. Kingsguard have taken different sides in civil wars in the past. It's not a foregone conclusion that these men would choose to support Viserys under those circumstances .

Viserys is a Targaryen heir, and it seems that there is one that comes before Viserys that the Kingsguard are protecting at the tower. The Targaryens are the rightful royal family of the Seven Kingdoms. The war is not over, the men and ships belonging to the Targaryens are at Dragonstone, and there is still hope to win the war. At least there was hope until Daenerys' birth and the storm sank the ships. The Kingsguard vow to protect and defend the king, with their lives. It is certain that if there is a Targaryen heir, that the Kingsguard, Hightower, Whent, and Dayne will do everything within their power to guarantee his safety. Whose safety are they seeing to at the tower? Jon is the only answer possible.

[sj4iy]

I think it was Abel. There are actually a lot more examples where the king had no Kingsguard present at all.

1. Every time the king rides a dragon.

...and how is that applicable here?

2. Every time someone in authority (e.g., Larys, when the king was too incapacitated to give or ratify orders) tells them to do something else.

That doesn't automatically mean that the king doesn't have a KG with him.

3. Every time the seven KGs have a meeting.

As posted above, that doesn't mean they leave him without protection.

4. When Aerys died, and his heir Viserys was without any KGs on Dragonstone.

Which is nothing more than a dereliction of their duty. The new king is in danger of the new regime, and not only do the three remaining true KG know this, but they choose to leave him there without protection.

Or they never left their king without protection and died defending him.

Take your pick.

[BearQueen87]

4. When Aerys died, and his heir Viserys was without any KGs on Dragonstone.

1. We haven't established that Viserys was his heir definitely.

2. Don't you think it's a tad odd that if Viserys was his heir and the idea was "protect our claim" that Aerys didn't send a KG with Viserys?

3. Even if Viserys was heir that doesn't negate a possible marriage between R and L and Jon being considered the rightful heir by the 3KG, if they knew about the Viserys situation.

Fair point. "Abel" does sound kind of Bael-ish.

It's an anagram.

A.B.E.L.

B.A.E.L

Both are bards, both infiltrate WF, both intend to "steal" someone away. And it's what Mance did in AGOT when he infiltrated WF for the first time (to check out Robert) because he as a certainty affinity for the story of Bael the Bard

[J. Stargaryen]

You can't be all in black, if you have a red plume of silk and red rubies on your armour. The physical metal of his armour was black yes. That's why GRRM says that Rhaegar was ARMOURED in black. Because his armour was black. He never says he was only wearing black.

I never claimed that the text says Rhaegar was only wearing black, so you're fighting an imaginary battle. Note that I didn't offer an opinion, but quoted the text. Once again, these are the actual words from the book: "the Targaryen prince armored all in black." This is clearly in reference to his "gleaming black plate" (AGoT, Eddard XV), not the rubies. We know this because GRRM mentions the rubies separately each time he writes about Rhaegar's black armor (AGoT, Eddard's I & XV; AFfC, Jaime I). - Link to all three quotes.

We're arguing it because he clearly had red on him, and you guys are trying to say he's dressed like Jon dresses, when Jon cannot possibly carry red like Rhaegar did. So they're completely different

I never said, or tried to say, any such thing. You've manufactured this straw man argument out of your own misunderstanding of the discussion.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

2. Don't you think it's a tad odd that if Viserys was his heir and the idea was "protect our claim" that Aerys didn't send a KG with Viserys?

This is actually a pretty big point. By the time Viserys and Rhaella are sent away, Darry and Martell are definitely known to be dead. Kingsguard members are replaced. If they were dead, why not designate two new ones (or even three new ones, if Selmy's flipped) and send them with Viserys? Why not name Willem Darry a Kingsguard then, since he had been given charge of the royal family? In hindsight, it's odd that Aerys never named new guards given how paranoid he was.

But it's the lack of Kingsguard on Dragonstone that makes it that much more remarkable that there were three Kingsguard at the Tower.

[Ygrain]

Could it be that perhaps Aerys' paranoia prevented him from taking new KG?

[BearQueen87]

Could it be that perhaps Aerys' paranoia prevented him from taking new KG?

Possibly, though it doesn't stop him from taking new Hands who will be nothing buy yes-men and go along with him. Surely, he can find some equally yes-men-inclined guards. And the new KG aren't staying with him; they'd be going with Rhaella and Viserys to DS.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Elia was always sickly, long before she married Rhaegar:

No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar’s wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

---

“Elia found it all exciting. She was of that age, and her delicate health had never permitted her much travel.”

---

Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

---

“It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother’s heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate.”

So yeah, the story beats the dead horse over and over again that Elia was sickly, was always sickly and was never going to give Rhaegar all of the children he wanted.

Yeah, that was kinda what I wanted to say (I shouldn't post half slept). Seems that Elia being sickly is what some might believe was the reason Rhaegar left her.

[The Twinslayer]

Could it be that perhaps Aerys' paranoia prevented him from taking new KG?

That, or a lack of suitable candidates.

For example, if Willem Darry was married, he would not be a candidate. That, I think, is the only reason Oswell could be so confident that Aerys or Viserys had not named Willem to the Kingsguard after the Trident.

Of course, Hightower and company could rest easy knowing that Viserys was well-guarded. "Who guards the king?" "Ser Willem Darry." "A good man, and true." "Don't forget that the king is on an island protected by a fleet."

There is nothing a couple of KGs could do to help Viserys that wasn't already being done. But if even one of them left the TOJ, Lyanna would be less safe (if you want proof that one sword can matter to a small group, when Catelyn's group was threatened by the wildlings on their way to the Vale, she even arms Tyrion, who was her prisoner).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the reason why Aerys didn't name more KG is because after the Trident and Rhaegar's death, he finally lost it and decided to kill everyone.

[BearQueen87]

That, or a lack of suitable candidates.

For example, if Willem Darry was married, he would not be a candidate. That, I think, is the only reason Oswell could be so confident that Aerys or Viserys had not named Willem to the Kingsguard after the Trident.

Of course, Hightower and company could rest easy knowing that Viserys was well-guarded. "Who guards the king?" "Ser Willem Darry." "A good man, and true." "Don't forget that the king is on an island protected by a fleet."

There is nothing a couple of KGs could do to help Viserys that wasn't already being done. But if even one of them left the TOJ, Lyanna would be less safe (if you want proof that one sword can matter to a small group, when Catelyn's group was threatened by the wildlings on their way to the Vale, she even arms Tyrion, who was her prisoner).

Given that Darry went into self-imposed exile with just some servants and two Targ children, I'm betting he wasn't married.

Other than that, so there wasn't one single viable candidate who could become a very quick KG? And I think you're missing the point...if he's the heir to the throne, he gets a KG, at least one.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

This is actually a pretty big point. By the time Viserys and Rhaella are sent away, Darry and Martell are definitely known to be dead. Kingsguard members are replaced. If they were dead, why not designate two new ones (or even three new ones, if Selmy's flipped) and send them with Viserys? Why not name Willem Darry a Kingsguard then, since he had been given charge of the royal family? In hindsight, it's odd that Aerys never named new guards given how paranoid he was.

But it's the lack of Kingsguard on Dragonstone that makes it that much more remarkable that there were three Kingsguard at the Tower.

Exactly my thinking. Aerys is--at this point in the story--the most paranoid man in the world. I would think having just Jaime, son of his best frenemy, to guard him there at the end wouldn't have been enough. And yes, guarding the wife and heirs are usually priorities as well.

Having 3 of the very best--by all accounts--KG to ever guard a king standing around a tower protecting "one Stark girl" after R has gone off to fight and die at the Trident? That stands out.

[The Wolves]

I think the reason why Aerys didn't name more KG is because after the Trident and Rhaegar's death, he finally lost it and decided to kill everyone.

Awww..... I like the thought that his son's death finally broke him to the point of no return, I want to believe he wasn't all bad so him losing it when Rhaegar died makes me feel for him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Awww..... I like the thought that his son's death finally broke him to the point of no return, I want to believe he wasn't all bad so him losing it when Rhaegar died makes me feel for him.

It doesn't need out of love but the realization that they were indeed losing.

[The Wolves]

It doesn't need out of love but the realization that they were indeed losing.

And thanks for crushing that idea.