sj4iy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Don't forget that the master of horse worked for Jan's father and would want to courteous to Jon, too.GRRM has an interesting way of using "as well as." It does not appear to mean that you are the best, or even as good as the best other person, at something. It appears to mean that you are as good as an average person, although others are better. Here is Jaime, to Brienne: "You protected me as well as any man could have, and better than most."Seriously, there's no ambiguity here. Jon's an excellent rider. At 14, he is told that he can ride as well as ANYONE in the castle. Anyone. There's no "buts", "except fors", or any other disclaimer. I really don't see what's so hard about admitting this when it's written over and over again in the story, and we get several examples of his excellent horsemanship. The simple fact that he could jump on a mare with no saddle while fighting and then ride her bareback, at full speed and while he was injured proves that he is an amazing rider. That's not easy to do, even for a master horseman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Concerning Jon's skills: It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. ... She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Concerning Jon's skills: It was not Lord Eddards face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyns. ... She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Awesome. There are lots of clues as to Jon's skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Don't forget that the master of horse worked for Jan's father and would want to courteous to Jon, too.GRRM has an interesting way of using "as well as." It does not appear to mean that you are the best, or even as good as the best other person, at something. It appears to mean that you are as good as an average person, although others are better. Here is Jaime, to Brienne: "You protected me as well as any man could have, and better than most." Which is exactly as how it's meant to mean. It means you're average. If you tell your son that he's as good as anyone on the team, you don't actually mean that. You just mean that he's of a skill set that's comparable to the other players. He's not actually as good as the best player, nor is he as bad as the worst. He falls in the middle and is just good. If you wanted to tell him he was the best, you would simply say "you're the best one there". If GRRM meant to mean that Jon was the best rider in Winterfell, he'd have said "Hullen told me I'm the best rider in Winterfell" or Ned would have made him the master of horse. As it stands he didn't say that and Ned never made Jon master of horse, and SJ's claims that Jon is as good as anyone, which would include Hullen and Harwin, are directly refuted by Harwin (and Arya) who tells us that he and his father were better than any northman could get. So he most definitely is not the best rider in Winterfell. SJ just can't stand Jon being anything but perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Concerning Jon's skills: It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. ... She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. That just means that Catelyn didn't like it when Jon beat Robb at anything. Not that he beat Robb at most anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Seriously?If Ned can juggle as well as any man in Winterfell, what man in Winterfell can juggle better than Ned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Seriously?If Ned can juggle as well as any man in Winterfell, what man in Winterfell can juggle better than Ned? That depends. Is there a juggler in Winterfell who is a better juggler than any northman in this situation?In which case, the juggler who is better than any northman, is better than Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 That depends. No it doesn't. If there's a man in Winterfell who can juggle better than Ned, then Ned can not juggle as well as him. That's what the word "better" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 No it doesn't. If there's a man in Winterfell who can juggle better than Ned, then Ned can not juggle as well as him. That's what the word "better" means. So why is Ned not the master of balls then if he is the best juggler in Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Master of balls? :lol: Worst job title ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Who is the fisherman`s daughter and is she still alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Who is the fisherman`s daughter and is she still alive? A red herring maybe? Do herrings get really old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Also did you just stop reading my post after you disagreed with the first sentence? Should I just assume you have no response to my other points? Actually, I am going to go along with the idea that I have no response for you, altogether. For everyone else, KCDFTT. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The Martells would be pretty upset if Rhaegar married another woman while still wed to Elia, no? Why was Meagor exiled by Aenys then? Was it not for the act polygamy, something the Faith disdained? Didn't Jaehaerys back up the marriage of Aerys and Rhaella with some sort of prophecy that they would give birth to TPTWP? Are you producing quotes to support your supposition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 No, because sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.Couldn't agree more. And R and J do resemble each other in more that they are male and can sit a horse. You even acknolwedge that you think GRRM is laying a lot of clues for RLJ but taht it's a long con from the author. But at least you acknowledge the cluesNot sure I'd say "a lot" of clues. There are certainly significant clues, carefully laid - if not nearly as many as have been "found" in these threads. But the attempt to draw out any meaningful resemblance between Jon and Rhaegar reminds me of an old joke: Q: How is Santa Claus like a can of beans? A: They both have beards! (dramatic pause) ...except for the can of beans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Who is the fisherman`s daughter and is she still alive? Probably still alive but she's the very definition of a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 DS is dangerous because he never shuts up. Never. Like, when Arianne wanted to get away from him because he didn't stop complaining and he FOLLOWED HER to keep on moaning.Actually, Jaime and Cersei take the moron prize.There actually isn't a lot of difference between Jaime and DS.Besides, GRRM said/asked the fandom, "aren't you interested in who DS might be?"Something to that affect.Dum, dum, dummmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Seriously?If Ned can juggle as well as any man in Winterfell, what man in Winterfell can juggle better than Ned?I don't know or really care if Jon is supposed to be good at sitting on horses, but GRRM's use of this phrase is interesting. Asha does the finger dance as well as any man on the isles. She wields an axe as well as any man. Hagen's daughter steers a ship as well as any man. Brienne defended Jaime as well as any man, and better than most. She also proves that she can hunt as well as any. Theon could grasp a sword hilt as well as any man. Arya identifies a target whose pocket she can pick who would "do as well as any and better than most". Davos could decipher maps as well as any but could not read. Jorah fights as well as any man. I don't think GRRM uses this to indicate that someone is the best at something. More like adequate, or perhaps, better than average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 No. He doesn't say that he's a good jouster. He said that he's better with a lance. Skill with a lance is not the same as being skilled at joust. They are completely different.You simply cannot infer that Robb is a better rider than Jon from this statement. Without some statement as to how well Robb sat a horse, you cannot determine whether or not Robb was better, worse or equal to Jon in horsemanship. We only have a definitive statement that Jon rode as well as anyone in Winterfell. Unless there is evidence that Robb was better than that, then your conclusion is wrong.You do know that jousting is the tournament version of the lance used in warfare right. The lance is used on horseback to strike an enemy from a greater range. If Robb is better at the lance does that not mean he's a better rider and if Jon and Robb met in a joust then Robb would most likey win, being the stronger lance? Let's see, when it comes to the KotLT horse riding and the lance go hand in hand to prove that Lyanna is the KotLT. But, when it comes to Robb, then horsemanship no longer matters? Seems biased to me. I like Jon's character but I don't see the need to make him better than he actually is. If Robb is a little better in some things and Jon a little better other things, so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Because there is a difference between saying that Robb is a little better than Jon--which is probably true and has fuck all to do with RLJ-- and claiming that Robb being better than Jon is somehow proof that RL =/ = J which is where this whole horse-fest started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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